Who had ever heard of a double pivot before last season .. ?

This thread is dedicated to the double pivot.

Lampard and Mikel anybody .. ?

Discuss.

I believe in Spain they call it el doble pivote.

Muchas gracias.

I had.

Although we don't strictly play with a double pivot. A double pivot is usually where the two central players take it in turns to go forward and hold. It is however much easier to use 'double pivot' to refer to the central pairing than call them a... errr... central pairing. I somehow expect this will turn into a 'Mikel Out!' thread, though. Which is fun.

I somehow expect this will turn into a 'Mikel Out!' thread, though. Which is fun.

I got a kick out of the fact that a Yann M'Vila topic popped up today. We should totally sell Mikel because he's inconsistent and replace him with a midfielder from France with a reputation for...inconsistency. Brilliant.

Although we don't strictly play with a double pivot. A double pivot is usually where the two central players take it in turns to go forward and hold.

Are you sure Eggy? I must admit I'm unfamiliar with the nuances of el doble pivote. However, why must they take it in turns? One sitting and one pushing more forward creates the same tactical shape, regardless of whether they're alternating or not. I would have thought el doble pivote refers more to the fact you are playing with two sitting midfielders as the point at which your attacks start.

I could be wrong on this but my Spanish is perfect.

Are you sure Eggy? I must admit I'm unfamiliar with the nuances of el doble pivote. However, why must they take it in turns? One sitting and one pushing more forward creates the same tactical shape, regardless of whether they're alternating or not. I would have thought el doble pivote refers more to the fact you are playing with two sitting midfielders as the point at which your attacks start.

I could be wrong on this but my Spanish is perfect.

If you only have one player going forward, you only pivot at one point. If they take it in turns it becomes a double pivot. I first heard it used in reference to Germany Schweinsteiger and Khedira and the way they would take it in turns.

That was always the way I understood it, anyway.

If you only have one player going forward, you only pivot at one point. If they take it in turns it becomes a double pivot. I first heard it used in reference to Germany Schweinsteiger and Khedira and the way they would take it in turns.

That was always the way I understood it, anyway.

You're correct. A double pivot is a system with two holding midfielders, either of which can go forward while the other covers. A system with a strictly defined defensive midfielder that is always sitting back is not a double pivot.

Edited August 12, 201213 yr by That Boy Brandinho

Well, there is absolutely no doubt, since we started with this double pivot malarkey, Lampard has sat back on the whole. The odd run upfield but hardly any. He is now playing a lot deeper than he ever has before, and for that reason I assumed the double pivot (to give it its English name, for those of you who don't speak Spanish) meant two sitting midfielders, with the onus on them to start the attacks, by giving the ball to their more attacking chums.

Mikel is purely and simply a sitting midfielder who never ventures upfield, so by the definition given to it in this thread, we have never played with a double pivot at all.

It was like when we switched to 4-5-1 rather than the trusty 4-3-3 in big Champions League games under Hiddink. (Sorry if the personnel is a bit off)

Normal 3-man midfield

------------------------Essien

---------------Ballack--------Lampard

'Double pivot' midfield (e.g. vs Liverpool/Barca)

--------------Essien--------Ballack

-Kalou-------------Lampard---------Malouda

I assume the defining factor in it being a 'double pivot' is the presence of two players in the deepest line of central midfield as opposed to one (as in a 4-3-3 or a 4-1-2-1-2).

Well, there is absolutely no doubt, since we started with this double pivot malarkey, Lampard has sat back on the whole. The odd run upfield but hardly any. He is now playing a lot deeper than he ever has before, and for that reason I assumed the double pivot (to give it its English name, for those of you who don't speak Spanish) meant two sitting midfielders, with the onus on them to start the attacks, by giving the ball to their more attacking chums.

Mikel is purely and simply a sitting midfielder who never ventures upfield, so by the definition given to it in this thread, we have never played with a double pivot at all.

Pretty much, but people tend to call it a double pivot because it's an easy way to refer to the two holding midfielders as a collective.

A pivot only works when you have legs in midfield so that the one that goes forward can get back as well...in terms of brandinho's comments towards M'Villa yes I recommended him for the simple fact that he has the legs on him. Lampard and mikel is a system made to fail it has to be one or the other, we either play a DM who is going to sit back and defend alongside a box to box player or a DM who can get get about the pitch alongside a player who cannot get back to help the defence every time . Playing lampard alongside mikel results in Lampard going forward and not being able to get back when he goes forward with mikel not being able to keep up with runners when the other team breaks leaving our defence very exposed which was amplified today when we went down to 10 men! We are desperate need of a cm who can carry the ball and keep possession and we are very lucky to have 2 in Oscar and Mceachran I just hope they are afforded the oppurtunities they deserve

Mikel is purely and simply a sitting midfielder who never ventures upfield, so by the definition given to it in this thread, we have never played with a double pivot at all.

I wouldn't say never. Towards the end of the season, when he was in top form, he did a good job of picking the right spots to come forward. It's certainly not what he's known for, but he wasn't just sitting back for 90 minutes.

Didn’t Ancelotti play that at Milan with Gattuso and Pirlo? Where Gattuso did all the sitting and Pirlo the some of the sitting and some of the playmaking? Although Lampard today was one of the better players I think that his role, if we continue along this road, will eventually go to Ramires.

A pivot only works when you have legs in midfield so that the one that goes forward can get back as well...in terms of brandinho's comments towards M'Villa yes I recommended him for the simple fact that he has the legs on him. Lampard and mikel is a system made to fail it has to be one or the other, we either play a DM who is going to sit back and defend alongside a box to box player or a DM who can get get about the pitch alongside a player who cannot get back to help the defence every time . Playing lampard alongside mikel results in Lampard going forward and not being able to get back when he goes forward with mikel not being able to keep up with runners when the other team breaks leaving our defence very exposed which was amplified today when we went down to 10 men! We are desperate need of a cm who can carry the ball and keep possession and we are very lucky to have 2 in Oscar and Mceachran I just hope they are afforded the oppurtunities they deserve

Be great to see the two of them on the same pitch at some time - sadly I doubt that will happen.

It was difficult once we went down to 10 men today but we really could have done with a player like Oscar or McEachran who could put their foot on the ball and make things happen rather than what happened with our midfield strolling about as though they were still on their summer hols.

Edited August 12, 201213 yr by Nibs

Be great to see the two of them on the same pitch at some time - sadly I doubt that will happen.

It was difficult once we went down to 10 men today but we really could have done with a player like Oscar or McEachran who could put their foot on the ball and make things happen rather than what happened with our midfield strolling about as though they were still on their summer hols.

Barcelona make it work with mceachran being more the xavi and Oscar the iniesta although I think we have a long way to go before that sort of talk

Damn, I thought this thread was about a new sex position, the double pivot - so disappointed!

Who the f**k was it that started making football so bloody complicated?

For gods sake, jumpers for goal posts and all that.

This forum is like a universitys theoretical physicists discussion board.

Football is really simple. The team with the best players that try the hardest win. And maybe a little refereeing influence thrown in for good measure.

Who the f**k was it that started making football so bloody complicated?

For gods sake, jumpers for goal posts and all that.

This forum is like a universitys theoretical physicists discussion board.

Football is really simple. The team with the best players that try the hardest win. And maybe a little refereeing influence thrown in for good measure.

If it were just a LITTLE refereeing influence, I could accept that. But when you have 10 men playing against 12...

..they might as well be doing the paso doble!

Well, I can't dispute that. At Chelsea we have seen our fare share of performance stealing referring displays. But more often than not the best players come out on top irrespective of formation, double privet hedges or paso dobles

Edited August 12, 201213 yr by Snedger

I think Tom Daley did one last night.

the winners are not just the best players who try the hardest. at lower levels, yes. but in top flight football there is something to be said about tactics AND the players' understanding and comfort level in said tactics. players spend less time thinking and more time using their athletic ability allowing them to play harder. that's what wins.

I'm very glad you started this thread davey.

because I've a theory:

anyone who uses the following terms:

-double pivot

-trequartista

-regista

-inverted winger

etc

probably doesn't know what they are talking about and should be treated with suspicion.

you'll also see these people saying things like "formation x is dead" and "football has evolved".

you know in fight club the whole idea is that a bunch of morons read too much neitzche then try to apply their what they've 'learnt'?

well put zonal marking / football manager / jonathan wilson is place of neitzche and this is what you get.

someone who doesn't actually understand football but has read about the w-m formation and is now here to tell us that a minor tactical trend is the new and improved testament.

Edited August 13, 201213 yr by g3.7

Right,

I will start off by saying this is not because I dislike Mikel. It is not. This is because I feel the PL is not his league. We have all seen how capable he is in the champions league but we have to be honest 1 or 2 desent games in europe every year is just not good enough.

We have brought in many attacking midfielders this window and probably moses is going to be en route too. Time to change is now. And this may not be popular but f**k the fact Mikel is 25, he isnt improving any more and thus we should cash in.

We really don't need much more from now for the season ahead.

Think of this......... with a couple more signings................

Cech (Turnbull Hilario)

Ivan(new RB) Luiz Cahill and Terry in rotation (hutch) Cole (Bertrand)

Tiote(Romeu Essien)

Moses(Ramires) Oscar(Lamps - yes he is 34!!) Mata(Meireles) Hazard(Marin & Piazon)

Torres (Sturridge Moses)

There ya go, 25 players. Done.

Just need Tiote, new RB, and Moses.

Not much more and we are ready. Truth is, I have not worked out the adverage age of the squad above but it cant be much compared to last season.

Some people may argue about Ramires or the other midfielders/Positions but how interchangable are they? Very.

Goodbye to Mikel, Malouda and Benayoun.

Ferriera should stay, maybe. Just maybe depending on the RB we get.

4-1-4-1 is our future.

I think Ramires could do a decent job in that DM role personally. Has the tackling ability and the similar type of driving run that Tiote and an old Essien had.