2 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

He's a good lad? Ahh didn't know you drank with him down your local.

How exactly has he been mistreated or treated like sh*t? We rescued him from Madrid after a fairly average season with us and then play him every time he's actually fit. He's probably the only player you can argue hasn't been mistreated, we've gave him the world. Pretty sure he's worn the armband for us before too. 

I do have some intel on it through Croatia networks. And then my judgment based on the evidence so far. He’s a consummate professional and loves playing the game. 

Tuchel on more than one occasion praised his professionalism, saying he could call him up and tell him to be at training at 3 am and he would. If our current coach/owners aren’t able to coax the same enthusiasm, that is to a large extent on them.

Klopp has sung his praises, describing him as  a “Rolls Royce” of a player.

Guardiola clearly rates him highly.

Sterling said on signing for a Chelsea that Kovacic was the player he most looked forward to linking up with, based on the “serious stuff” he did when playing against City.

there’s more but that’s enough for me. Meanwhile I’ve never heard a bad word said about him inside the football establishment. Whose views am I going to give more credence to, those of the people at the very top of that establishment or random people on the Internet? 

he’s being mistreated as he’s being dicked around over contract talks. This admittedly is partly my conjecture. Maybe not the full picture.

1 hour ago, Dean said:

Half the things you mention here aren’t what we got him for. There was a time when he wasn’t scoring any goals at all and the fans were cutting him more slack than they are now. One and two we just aren’t going to agree on, which is absolutely fine. 
 

i just get the impression too many fans have turned on him based on insufficient evidence, especially when you consider the many disruptions we’ve been through and the fact (sorry to sound like a broken record here) that nobody is performing well. 

In the last 4 years what does he genuinely excel at other than being press resistant with body feigns?

1 hour ago, RIP Mourinho said:

In the last 4 years what does he genuinely excel at other than being press resistant with body feigns?

It's strange what you can achieve with a body feign or two. A year later we won the CL with basically the same squad.

Edited March 1, 20233 yr by Vagabond

28 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

It's strange what you can achieve with a body feign or two. A year later we won the CL with basically the same squad.

Doesn't answer my question, what is he elite at other than being press resistant?

If you read the Mason Mount thread winning that award twice counts for nothing, never mind just winning it once. 

18 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Doesn't answer my question, what is he elite at other than being press resistant?

If you read the Mason Mount thread winning that award twice counts for nothing, never mind just winning it once. 

Of course it answers your question. He is quick, has elite level brilliant ball control, is an elite dribbler and puts in elite level tackles for instance. He has flaws as well of course, but to claim he isn't good at anything is just silly.

Since you mention the Mount thread I must assume you want to sell Mason as well since he isn't elite at anything either?

Edited March 1, 20233 yr by Vagabond

4 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

So you want Mount gone too?

Mount contributed more goals last season alone than Kovacic managed in the previous 8 seasons. 

My point is Kovacic is press resistant but very little else does he offer for the team. Mount offers goals and assists from all over the pitch. 

1 hour ago, RIP Mourinho said:

In the last 4 years what does he genuinely excel at other than being press resistant with body feigns?

You’re using terminology to demean his abilities / prejudice the argument in your favour. “Press-resistant” isn’t particularly evocative.  If we substitute for “press-resistant” “exceptional close control”, “phenomenal ball skills” it changes the perception a bit. As for “body feigns[sic]”, ok - you’re doing it again.  What if you just used the word “skill” instead?. “Body feigns[sic]” are pretty handy for dribbling halfway up the pitch and beating four or five players - something he’s better at than arguably any midfielder in our history. He produced one such feint (aka sublime piece of skill) before setting up Lukaku with a through ball of real quality (which apparently he’s incapable of).
 

You may prioritise other attributes in players. You don’t have to like him. But come on - credit where it’s due.

4 minutes ago, Dean said:

You’re using terminology to demean his abilities / prejudice the argument in your favour. “Press-resistant” isn’t particularly evocative.  If we substitute for “press-resistant” “exceptional close control”, “phenomenal ball skills” it changes the perception a bit. As for “body feigns[sic]”, ok - you’re doing it again.  What if you just used the word “skill” instead?. “Body feigns[sic]” are pretty handy for dribbling halfway up the pitch and beating four or five players - something he’s better at than arguably any midfielder in our history. He produced one such feint (aka sublime piece of skill) before setting up Lukaku with a through ball of real quality (which apparently he’s incapable of).
 

You may prioritise other attributes in players. You don’t have to like him. But come on - credit where it’s due.

Outside of you wanting to to just rephrase what i said without adding any real substance the bolded bit proves my point. The annoyance is he IS capable of it, its just so rare he ever actually does it. Press resistance/close control/ball skills, whatever you want to call it, is the only thing in his arsenal that he can do every time. I've lost count the amount of times he's dribbled to the edge of an opponents box past 3 players just to overhit a pass out for a goal kick. On the same note i've lost count how many times a ball has set up for him and he's dragged the shot wide or thumped it into row Z. Call it what you want but he lacks in passing and shooting ability, two VERY important traits for a midfielder.

3 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Mount contributed more goals last season alone than Kovacic managed in the previous 8 seasons. 

My point is Kovacic is press resistant but very little else does he offer for the team. Mount offers goals and assists from all over the pitch. 

So POTY doesn't seem to matter to you either or are you just mad that people are sh*tting on Mason despite him earning his award with a good season so you have to sh*t on another player with the same achievement? If your reasoning for keeping Mount is that he has more assists as an attacking midfielder and player player that takes our corners I don't know what to tell you. Next you will want to keep Lukaku or Pulisic over Kante as well because he scored more goals I guess.

But as I've said, if you don't think Kova has any qualities besides being press resistant it's no wonder you want him gone. I'm just baffled that you didn't see anything in all the games, because I did.

3 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

So POTY doesn't seem to matter to you either or are you just mad that people are sh*tting on Mason despite him earning his award with a good season so you have to sh*t on another player with the same achievement? If your reasoning for keeping Mount is that he has more assists as an attacking midfielder and player player that takes our corners I don't know what to tell you. Next you will want to keep Lukaku or Pulisic over Kante as well because he scored more goals I guess.

But as I've said, if you don't think Kova has any qualities besides being press resistant it's no wonder you want him gone. I'm just baffled that you didn't see anything in all the games, because I did.

I saw plenty, i also see he's very limited. I can't think of another elite team that has a player that contributes as little in the middle of the park. Utd with Fred maybe? 

Just now, RIP Mourinho said:

I saw plenty, i also see he's very limited. I can't think of another elite team that has a player that contributes as little in the middle of the park. Utd with Fred maybe? 

Ok. Let's play your game then. What is Mount truly elite at?

4 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

Ok. Let's play your game then. What is Mount truly elite at?

This is a conversation about Kovacic?

But i'd say until his current down turn in form this season: goal scoring, set pieces, build up play, defensive contribution and pressing. 

1 minute ago, RIP Mourinho said:

This is a conversation about Kovacic?

But i'd say until his current down turn in form this season: goal scoring, set pieces, build up play, defensive contribution and pressing. 

Elite goal scoring? You're mad. Have you seen our goal scoring stats the last few seasons?

Set pieces? We have better set piece takers in our own squad, let alone elite players from other clubs.

Build up play? Even Kova has better build up play than him.

Defensive contribution and pressing is effectively the same thing for an attacking midfielder is the same thing. But I'd agree with you there.

Mount is at least available...

As opposed to a player who is in his prime. 

5 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Mount is at least available...

As opposed to a player who is in his prime. 

He is and that's an argument I can understand if you want him sold. Same for Kante who broke down physically when Sarri overused him and can only be relied on for a few games every season. But to say Kova doesn't have the skill while we are keeping the likes RLC, Gallagher and even Mount is just silly.

Just now, Vagabond said:

He is and that's an argument I can understand if you want him sold. Same for Kante who broke down physically when Sarri overused him and can only be relied on for a few games every season. But to say Kova doesn't have the skill while we are keeping the likes RLC, Gallagher and even Mount is just silly.

I honestly can't think of anything Kovacic is effective at other than dribbling in transition and ball retention. 

Truly. 

 

 

If selling Kovacic and a couple of others meant we could get, say, Declan Rice, would people go for that ?

With Enzo on board, I can only see a starting role for Kovacic in a 4-3-3, alongside Enzo, with someone like Rice behind him, but even then I'd personally prefer someone with a bit more physical presence and height, and goal scoring ability than Kova can offer  (really hope Casadei can kick on). Also have to factor in Andre Santos as well.

In a two-man pivot, with Enzo a shoe-in for one of them, then I don't see a role for Kovacic in that at all.

I said earlier the idea of Kovacic is better than the reality. With what he has in his locker, he looks like he should be so much better and more influential than he is, so the overall reaction is more one of disappointment, than delight, which is probably a tad unfair, but hey ho. Life isn't ever fair LOL.

If City are sniffing, then I can see a deal being done, especially if Alvarez is coming the other way. I can almost hear Enzo tapping up young Julian already LOL.

Edited March 1, 20233 yr by Sexyfootball

2 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I honestly can't think of anything Kovacic is effective at other than dribbling in transition and ball retention. 

Truly. 

 

 

Good for you but I don't really care. Apparently Zidane can; he used Kova to man mark Messi when playing against Barcelona.

You are allowed to think Kovacic is a good player and thinks it’s best if he leaves. This is where I sit.

For me our midfield has been injury prone for a while and we shouldn’t keep them all and have the same problems. 

Kovacic problem here is it’s sensible to keep one of our world class but injury prone midfielders and Ngolo Kante plays in the same team. 
 

 

2 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I honestly can't think of anything Kovacic is effective at other than dribbling in transition and ball retention. 

Truly. 

 

 

I can’t think of anything Isaac Newton was good at except maths and physics.

1 hour ago, Blueboys said:

You are allowed to think Kovacic is a good player and thinks it’s best if he leaves. This is where I sit.

For me our midfield has been injury prone for a while and we shouldn’t keep them all and have the same problems. 

Kovacic problem here is it’s sensible to keep one of our world class but injury prone midfielders and Ngolo Kante plays in the same team. 
 

 

Absolutely. I don’t agree but this is a perfectly valid viewpoint 

3 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

If selling Kovacic and a couple of others meant we could get, say, Declan Rice, would people go for that ?

With Enzo on board, I can only see a starting role for Kovacic in a 4-3-3, alongside Enzo, with someone like Rice behind him, but even then I'd personally prefer someone with a bit more physical presence and height, and goal scoring ability than Kova can offer  (really hope Casadei can kick on). Also have to factor in Andre Santos as well.

In a two-man pivot, with Enzo a shoe-in for one of them, then I don't see a role for Kovacic in that at all.

I said earlier the idea of Kovacic is better than the reality. With what he has in his locker, he looks like he should be so much better and more influential than he is, so the overall reaction is more one of disappointment, than delight, which is probably a tad unfair, but hey ho. Life isn't ever fair LOL.

If City are sniffing, then I can see a deal being done, especially if Alvarez is coming the other way. I can almost hear Enzo tapping up young Julian already LOL.

Perfectly reasonable even if I don’t agree and really don’t like the idea of Rice. That’s my bias, admittedly. Also, I wonder if people’s views on Kova would be any different if we discounted this season. That’s how I think we should be looking at things. There’s been too much disruption. For the same reasons, I’m holding back from judging Mount. 

21 hours ago, Dean said:

He absolutely would get near their starting 11. He is a complete midfielder too. You and others have it the wrong way round. The sad reality is he’s too good for the Mickey Mouse club we’re being turned into, and those who know about football are licking their lips. you’ll get what you want. Then we’ll see if it’s better. 

We clearly have a different opinion as to what forms the basis of a complete midfielder. Complete midfielder would suggest no flaws and yet as I've already pointed out, Kovacic is about as much of a goal threat as Mikel and Makele (both better players mind) and on a par assist wise. Despite carrying the ball well, I have lost count of the times he then picks the wrong pass or loses possession is dangerous areas.

No, Kova is an adequate squad player but complete midfielder he is not and never likely to be - certainly not in the Essien, Ballack, Lampard bracket. THOSE were complete midfielders.

 

Edited March 1, 20233 yr by Nibs

9 hours ago, Dean said:

Normally I wouldn’t but felt someone had to respond to comments that are unjust. 

You opinion is as unjust as mine, since you had nothing to back it up

25 minutes ago, Nibs said:

We clearly have a different opinion as to what forms the basis of a complete midfielder. Complete midfielder would suggest no flaws and yet as I've already pointed out, Kovacic is about as much of a goal threat as Mikel and Makele (both better players mind) and on a par assist wise. Despite carrying the ball well, I have lost count of the times he then picks the wrong pass or loses possession is dangerous areas.

No, Kova is an adequate squad player but complete midfielder he is not and never likely to be - certainly not in the Essien, Ballack, Lampard bracket. THOSE were complete midfielders.

 

Come on. Mikel better than Kovacic is ridiculous. How is it possible to even think that? Kovacic is better on the ball than any of those players were, and it’s much hard to be that now than it was then. Lampard himself even expressed envy at his ability to take players on. Goals was never going to be his strong point. That was always known. Being able to dribble and beat other elite players is a pretty rare ability. We don’t have any other midfielders that can. It’s a unique skill set in the context of our midfield  that’s worth fighting to keep.