13 hours ago, Luiz4Chelsea said:

I say buy this guy and sell Christensen

I know I know, why sell an internationally recognised CB-talent at 24 for an almost 29 y o no-namer in a potentially par-for-par deal?

But guess what, Christensen will most likely never fulfill his apparent potential for us and this no-namer is actually a really good PL defender. He'd make us immediately more stable and stronger, particularly in the air, and his passing looks great. Let's not forget that Brighton has the 9th best defense of the league, conceding only one goal more than us (might look different after Thursday).

Since Van Dijk everyone is convinced that there is no route to success without a 90m centre half, but I think this guy could actually be an intriguing addition to our back line. Now it doesn't look like Brighton will be relegated, but maybe Corona could make them a bit more reasonable on their valuation.

 

Sometimes its easy to look like a good CB when playing for teams like Brighton, they have a good defensive system, and he flourishes there. Are you seriously telling me if Rudiger or Christensen played for Brighton, that they would be behind Dunk? I doubt it.

Not only that, but I thought we were linked with him in January, and his price was around 50m... Not worth that much. Just look at Harry Maguire, for Leicester's system he was good and a solid defender, better than Dunk I'd say. But look at him for Utd, was he worth the world record fee? Nowhere near.

Sometimes its easy to look like a good CB when playing for teams like Brighton, they have a good defensive system, and he flourishes there. Are you seriously telling me if Rudiger or Christensen played for Brighton, that they would be behind Dunk? I doubt it.
Not only that, but I thought we were linked with him in January, and his price was around 50m... Not worth that much. Just look at Harry Maguire, for Leicester's system he was good and a solid defender, better than Dunk I'd say. But look at him for Utd, was he worth the world record fee? Nowhere near.

I can't really get to the bottom of your point - does he look like a good CB next to Brighton's average squad? Or because he's being carried by Brighton's great defense?

Personally, I don't see why it would be so much easier facing the same premier League strikers playing for Brighton rather than for Chelsea. And aren't like 70% of transfers of top clubs based on the player having performed good at a smaller club and the hope he'll continue to do so at a bigger club?

I know he's 28 but I remember a few years ago ManCity bought a bit of a no-name player called fernandinho at that age for quite a bit of money and that turned out pretty good. I like the fact Dunk has experience captaining a Premier League team, in my eyes that's exactly the leadership and rough edge we're missing from Christensen.

No my excitement towards Dunk as a target is obviously entirely based on the idea he might be available for considerably less than the 50m GBP reported last January.

22 hours ago, Luiz4Chelsea said:

I can't really get to the bottom of your point - does he look like a good CB next to Brighton's average squad? Or because he's being carried by Brighton's great defense?

Personally, I don't see why it would be so much easier facing the same premier League strikers playing for Brighton rather than for Chelsea. And aren't like 70% of transfers of top clubs based on the player having performed good at a smaller club and the hope he'll continue to do so at a bigger club?

I know he's 28 but I remember a few years ago ManCity bought a bit of a no-name player called fernandinho at that age for quite a bit of money and that turned out pretty good. I like the fact Dunk has experience captaining a Premier League team, in my eyes that's exactly the leadership and rough edge we're missing from Christensen.

No my excitement towards Dunk as a target is obviously entirely based on the idea he might be available for considerably less than the 50m GBP reported last January.

Its a bit of both, he obviously looks better next to players of a similar calibre, but Brighton have also been quite good defensively in general.

Just look at Harry Maguire, he was good for Leicester but playing for a bigger team is different than playing for a smaller team.

Also, if Dunk is a cheap CB option then I don't mind going for him, but he will not make our any defence any better than it currently is so what's the point? We need to sign a top CB partner them with Christensen or Rudi for the time being

22 hours ago, Luiz4Chelsea said:

I can't really get to the bottom of your point - does he look like a good CB next to Brighton's average squad? Or because he's being carried by Brighton's great defense?

Personally, I don't see why it would be so much easier facing the same premier League strikers playing for Brighton rather than for Chelsea. And aren't like 70% of transfers of top clubs based on the player having performed good at a smaller club and the hope he'll continue to do so at a bigger club?

I know he's 28 but I remember a few years ago ManCity bought a bit of a no-name player called fernandinho at that age for quite a bit of money and that turned out pretty good. I like the fact Dunk has experience captaining a Premier League team, in my eyes that's exactly the leadership and rough edge we're missing from Christensen.

No my excitement towards Dunk as a target is obviously entirely based on the idea he might be available for considerably less than the 50m GBP reported last January.

To be fair I think most people that watched the UCL or at least had som interest in football would have known about Fernandinho. After all they did splash out a pretty high amount of money for him as well. 
- It goes both ways though. They also bought Fernando from Shakhtar. He wasn't exactly succesful. 

If we were to go for a guy like Lewis Dunk, it would have to be at a max. price of £10-20M. What he offers is - as you say - experience, leadership and that rough edge. But is he a better footballer, and more intelligent than a guy like Christensen? Does he have the same potential? The same age? - No.

What I like doing is turning the table around. Would Brihgton want a guy like Christensen? Hell yeah. Would they be willing to pay £20-40M+ for him - given that he'd want a transfer to them? I've got no doubt. With this in mind, why would Lampard want to switch out a young, intelligent player from our own ranks with someone that's older, and has experience, but isn't really a better fotoballer?

I believe we're waiting until the right defender becomes available - instead of spending anywhere between £15-40M on another decent squad player like we've done countless times. We've got plenty of those already. One thing I do miss about Mourinho was the fact that he made sure we went for a few - though expensive - quality players. Diego Costa, Fabregas, etc. Those guys was key to us winning the title.

I like the transfers we've done so far - and I'm really excited about the possible Havertz transfer. But a guy like Dunk shouldn't even be linked to Chelsea IMO. It reminds me of a few years back when we we're linked to Crouch and Barnes. hat was around the same time when we bought Drinkwater, Zappacosta, Emerson and so on. 

Now my point is less about selling Christensen (just gave the example because of my frustration with him over the last 2 years) and more about buying Dunk. Maybe they could even form a great pairing.

I think what all this comes down to is that I have a largely unsubstantiated suspicion there may be an undiscovered gem in this league, potentially available on the cheap. Now I realise that I'm not very likely to be right with this, and I'm the last person to wish for another XX.000.000 gapfiller signing. I just really like the way he plays and his credentials, and feel like they could help us out over the next few years.

Generally I share the belief that with better defensive coaching our current defenders could already do a lot better.

To be fair I think most people that watched the UCL or at least had som interest in football would have known about Fernandinho. After all they did splash out a pretty high amount of money for him as well. 
- It goes both ways though. They also bought Fernando from Shakhtar. He wasn't exactly succesful. 

If we were to go for a guy like Lewis Dunk, it would have to be at a max. price of £10-20M. What he offers is - as you say - experience, leadership and that rough edge. But is he a better footballer, and more intelligent than a guy like Christensen? Does he have the same potential? The same age? - No.

What I like doing is turning the table around. Would Brihgton want a guy like Christensen? Hell yeah. Would they be willing to pay £20-40M+ for him - given that he'd want a transfer to them? I've got no doubt. With this in mind, why would Lampard want to switch out a young, intelligent player from our own ranks with someone that's older, and has experience, but isn't really a better fotoballer?

I believe we're waiting until the right defender becomes available - instead of spending anywhere between £15-40M on another decent squad player like we've done countless times. We've got plenty of those already. One thing I do miss about Mourinho was the fact that he made sure we went for a few - though expensive - quality players. Diego Costa, Fabregas, etc. Those guys was key to us winning the title.

I like the transfers we've done so far - and I'm really excited about the possible Havertz transfer. But a guy like Dunk shouldn't even be linked to Chelsea IMO. It reminds me of a few years back when we we're linked to Crouch and Barnes. hat was around the same time when we bought Drinkwater, Zappacosta, Emerson and so on. 

As to your question about Christensen: I don't care about who's interested in buying who, but I believe the following: if we agreed on a straight swap Dunk-Christensen with Brighton this summer, next season our defensive performance would improve and theirs would get worse.

Now I know that's a bold statement and I'll happily have Christensen convince me I'm wrong in the next 6 weeks.

11 minutes ago, Luiz4Chelsea said:

As to your question about Christensen: I don't care about who's interested in buying who, but I believe the following: if we agreed on a straight swap Dunk-Christensen with Brighton this summer, next season our defensive performance would improve and theirs would get worse.

Now I know that's a bold statement and I'll happily have Christensen convince me I'm wrong in the next 6 weeks.

As to your first post - I agree 100 %

There's a bit moneyball to it, and obviously there's someone going under the rader, that would potentially be a complete gem to get our hands on. 
- In some way I belive that's what we did with Marcos Alonso. Instead of going for expensive well-known names we went for a guy that Conte wanted. Someone that has later been looked at as one of the best wingbacks in the world. 

Could Dunk be another case? Maybe. But I doubt it. My point wasn't even if someone would like to swap or buy Christensen - but more the that FL and the coaching staff knows they've got their hands on a brilliant footballer, who simply lacks some recklessness and leadership. I believe Rüdiger has that, but the pairing of the two seems two go wrong nonetheless. Perhaps they're failing to communicate and organize their defensive roles, but something's wrong. 

Still, my point is - and thisis pure speculation... If your're FL, and you've got four centre backs - all decent, but none whom are really world class. Would you go out and buy another one, that isn't really better than the rest? Especially with the FFP limitations? A case could be made that next season we'd be better off. But this isn't a sprint - it's a marathon. And what I believe FL and the board are doing is looking at the long game. How do we secure our team for years to come? 

Is it by trusting the ones we've got, and then adding another high quality defender in the coming years when one becomes available - or is it by buying Dunk, and maybe ending up with a slightly better defence in the next couple of years - but still being significantly behind teams like City and Liverpool overall? What I'd look in to instead is someone like Romagnoli or Ruben Dias.

Expensive? Yes. Worth it? More than taking a change with Dunk IMO.

For now I suppose we have to trust Christensen in the remaining games of the season. He was decent against Villa, but tonight he'll be tested - not so much on physicality (luckily for him), but more on keeping his focus at all times.

As to your first post - I agree 100 %
There's a bit moneyball to it, and obviously there's someone going under the rader, that would potentially be a complete gem to get our hands on. 
- In some way I belive that's what we did with Marcos Alonso. Instead of going for expensive well-known names we went for a guy that Conte wanted. Someone that has later been looked at as one of the best wingbacks in the world. 
Could Dunk be another case? Maybe. But I doubt it. My point wasn't even if someone would like to swap or buy Christensen - but more the that FL and the coaching staff knows they've got their hands on a brilliant footballer, who simply lacks some recklessness and leadership. I believe Rüdiger has that, but the pairing of the two seems two go wrong nonetheless. Perhaps they're failing to communicate and organize their defensive roles, but something's wrong. 
Still, my point is - and thisis pure speculation... If your're FL, and you've got four centre backs - all decent, but none whom are really world class. Would you go out and buy another one, that isn't really better than the rest? Especially with the FFP limitations? A case could be made that next season we'd be better off. But this isn't a sprint - it's a marathon. And what I believe FL and the board are doing is looking at the long game. How do we secure our team for years to come? 
Is it by trusting the ones we've got, and then adding another high quality defender in the coming years when one becomes available - or is it by buying Dunk, and maybe ending up with a slightly better defence in the next couple of years - but still being significantly behind teams like City and Liverpool overall? What I'd look in to instead is someone like Romagnoli or Ruben Dias.
Expensive? Yes. Worth it? More than taking a change with Dunk IMO.
For now I suppose we have to trust Christensen in the remaining games of the season. He was decent against Villa, but tonight he'll be tested - not so much on physicality (luckily for him), but more on keeping his focus at all times.

Agree with pretty much all of this, and if a massive CB transfer became achievable I wouldn't think twice about it, not even for money concerns. My considerations evolve around a scenario in which such a transfer doesn't appear on the horizon, and in such a situation I don't see why exchanging one of our CBs - with a financial par for par outcome or even a little profit - in a way that could slightly improve and stabilise us for next season, would hold us back in the long run. There'd be no negative impact on FFP and it wouldn't stand in the way of any big money transfer when it becomes attainable.

I feel like there is consensus on a few matters regarding our CBs
- 1 out of the 4 shows every potential to become great at some point in the future (Tomori)
- 1 out of the remaining 3 might be able to shape a title-worthy pairing with another world class signing
- 2 out of the remaining 3 should already manage to build a better pairing than what we are seeing currently

If we were to conclude that one out of those remaiming 3 will simply not improve us at any point now or in the future (and even if no Skriniar / Romagnoli etc. is available this summer) I see no harm in replacing them with a more experienced, stabilising player for next season. Some have brought up Thiago Silva, now I might prefer Lewis Dunk. With the latter we'd have to hope that he hasn't lost too much quality, with the former I'd have hope he might turn out really good.

I don't actually believe that dispensable player would be Christensen cause I'm convinced lampard thinks very highly of him, and if I'm honest I might comsider him the most likely to become part of a world class pairing in the future. I've just had a frustrating sense of stagnation with him in the last two years, but I mustn't forget he's only 24. Maybe it could be Zouma, or maybe a replacement for Tomori if he goes out on loan...

Dunk has an advantage over any of our existing CBs as far as I'm concerned, he's a naturally left sided right-footed centre back. I rate Dunk much higher than Mings or Ake but for me we need world class to fill the huge void in our defence this season. Personally would hope we have a cheeky bid ready for Laporte this summer if a) we qualify for the CL, and b) City's CL ban is upheld. If Laporte joins Real Madrid offer Sergio Ramos a two year contract. Long term (and perhaps more realistically) I'd prefer we sign Gianluca Mancini but he only recently joined Roma so is unlikely to move.

Edited June 25, 20206 yr by the special one

Funny you mention both Alonso and Zappacosta though.

I agree Alonso was a brilliant transfer and believe there's still a place for him at the club. As to Zappacosta - him and Emerson are today regarded as classic examples of our recent mediocre 20-30m transfers, two or three of which could have afforded us someone like Alex Sandro. But at the time - having alonso in mind - I remember clearly thinking "yes hit me up with more of those sweet Serie A fullback bargains". I might feel that way again if we were to sign Gosens this summer.

Everyone agrees that we shouldn't waste our time with Bakayoko/Drinkwater/Zappacosta/Emerson/Batshuayi transfers any more, and while that's true, it's also a complicated statement. As long as we're not in the position to buy (almost) world class players only, hindsight will be 20-20. Yet, if we are in that position this summer, we must capitalise on it.

Thinking about it Lewis Dunk would be the perfect CB for Arsenal to provide them with some well needed stability at the back, fortunately for us we are moving in a different direction and operating at much higher levels.

We need someone De Ligt esque to help us take the next step up.

Dunk is a good player, but considering how far we push forward compared to Brighton, its difficult to know how he would cope. He also has no experience in Europe so how would he fair? It would be a gamble, and at 29, i dont think its one we should take, if he was 5 years younger, then i could see it being a possibility. 

Not for me.

Swapping dunk for Christensen ?????????????????????????.

I dont know whats more outrageous, that, or saying noone knew about Fernandinho before city bought him. ???????????????

Hang on, he's born and raised in Brighton, a local academy player who was promoted to the first team and then made captain and yet he's a Chelsea fan?

Alriiight we won't sell Christensen, excellent performance. Haven't been this happy with him in a long time.

I still consider dunk an interesting option, but if we keep defending like last night I will soon discard that

1 hour ago, Luiz4Chelsea said:

Alriiight we won't sell Christensen, excellent performance. Haven't been this happy with him in a long time.

I still consider dunk an interesting option, but if we keep defending like last night I will soon discard that

Top class from Christensen last night!

I still think we need to sell Zouma and bring in a top class CB so that we can start Christensen/New CB and keep Rudiger + Tomori as backup

On ?25?/?06?/?2020 at 15:17, Imran_CFC said:

Thinking about it Lewis Dunk would be the perfect CB for Arsenal to provide them with some well needed stability at the back, fortunately for us we are moving in a different direction and operating at much higher levels.

We need someone De Ligt esque to help us take the next step up.

Sometimes it is good just having a few players who can just do their job sensibly, quietly and without fuss.

On 25/06/2020 at 21:17, Imran_CFC said:

Thinking about it Lewis Dunk would be the perfect CB for Arsenal to provide them with some well needed stability at the back, fortunately for us we are moving in a different direction and operating at much higher levels.

We need someone De Ligt esque to help us take the next step up.

We know Sarri has a bit of a hard on for Jorginho and Emerson. Perhaps if we offered them both in a deal for DeLigt it might just have a chance.

 

18 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

Sometimes it is good just having a few players who can just do their job sensibly, quietly and without fuss.

I guess we've got Christensen and Zouma who fit that description, Lewis Dunk I don't think is a significant upgrade in that position considering his age. 

3 hours ago, Rechtub said:

We know Sarri has a bit of a hard on for Jorginho and Emerson. Perhaps if we offered them both in a deal for DeLigt it might just have a chance.

 

Don't think they'll persue Jorginho anymore as they've just agreed a deal for Barca's Arthur. 

If we're not gonna sign him he could at least help us out with a clean sheet tonight

Not included in Brighton's promotional material for next season apparently. It's happening?

Big fan of Dunk.

Another proper English talent and scores ahead of anyone else we have in defence bar Azpi.

Not exactly the first name that comes to mind when trying to recruit new defenders, but I would honestly take a paraplegic over the current ones.

Edited August 5, 20205 yr by KaiHakimTimo

On 25/06/2020 at 17:34, sonic90 said:

Hang on, he's born and raised in Brighton, a local academy player who was promoted to the first team and then made captain and yet he's a Chelsea fan?

Summer of 2012 I was in UK and went to Brighton for a day with cousins.....was shocked at the amount of Chelsea kits I saw.... not like everyone was wearing them but enough that I asked a cousin why, and if I recall he wasn't sure why so many Chelsea fans would be there unless a lot of Chelsea fans had decided on day trips too ...... and that's really the sickout memory of Brighton for me....

 

so based on the  anecdotal experience of my personal observations during one day in Brighton....makes perfect sense!

 

Just like with the Chilwell/Reguillon situation this could be a trick to force West Ham to drop their Rice valuation, since Frank sees Rice as a CB.

As for Dunk as an actual target that may prove to be a decent option. We haven't had a good old-fashioned british centreback since Cahill left and I think we're definitely missing some of that at the back.