I'm not sure Frank has done too much wrong with this defensive system. He's drops players when they under perform, all the defenders and the keepers have played a spell of games and had chances to step up to the table, and they do, maybe 2 games out of 3, but then we do a game like West Ham and back to square one, that's why our GD is almost half that of the team immediately above us and below us in the table.

First thing you question are the players, then when it keeps happening you question the manager/system. Now were at the point of blaming players/manager/system and it's become unclear where we need to concentrate our efforts.

I personally think the main problem at the back has been the quality of the players performances. Players switching off(whu 2nd), terrible rear vision(whu 2nd), being out jumped (disallowed goal and 1st ), out muscled (whu 3rd).

How can Frank make them stronger, or jump higher, or give them rear vision ? It's not very often a team scores against us and i think their wasn't much we could of done about it, it's nearly always down to individual player incompetence.

The next 3-4 players i would concentrate on getting are, at least one center back, a left back, and a keeper, get what we can for Kepa now he's still young, that 6 year contract must never happen again. Sell Christensen and Zouma, sell Alonso or Emerson. Keep Tomori2nd/3rd?, Rudiger3rd/4th? , Azpilicueta as 2nd RB.

Budget £200m.? maybe more.

Upamecano should be looked at. On a lower tier, we could look at bringing Ake back, but not sure he's going to be any better than what we currently have tbh. Thiago Silva is a shout for an experienced CB for a season long signing. Skriniar is another option, but Conte unlikely to let him go. Koulibaly is the top option, but he's pretty comfortable in Italy apparently, so not sure he would come to England. There is a scarcity of potentially very good defenders out there to sign. This is the time when our scouting needs to be put to the test. 

Edited July 3, 20206 yr by enigma

That Soyuncu looks quite a player, strong, fast and a great tackler. Leicester have a great scouting team.

3 hours ago, coco said:

I'm not sure Frank has done too much wrong with this defensive system. He's drops players when they under perform, all the defenders and the keepers have played a spell of games and had chances to step up to the table, and they do, maybe 2 games out of 3, but then we do a game like West Ham and back to square one, that's why our GD is almost half that of the team immediately above us and below us in the table.

First thing you question are the players, then when it keeps happening you question the manager/system. Now were at the point of blaming players/manager/system and it's become unclear where we need to concentrate our efforts.

I personally think the main problem at the back has been the quality of the players performances. Players switching off(whu 2nd), terrible rear vision(whu 2nd), being out jumped (disallowed goal and 1st ), out muscled (whu 3rd).

How can Frank make them stronger, or jump higher, or give them rear vision ? It's not very often a team scores against us and i think their wasn't much we could of done about it, it's nearly always down to individual player incompetence.

The next 3-4 players i would concentrate on getting are, at least one center back, a left back, and a keeper, get what we can for Kepa now he's still young, that 6 year contract must never happen again. Sell Christensen and Zouma, sell Alonso or Emerson. Keep Tomori2nd/3rd?, Rudiger3rd/4th? , Azpilicueta as 2nd RB.

Budget £200m.? maybe more.

 

With all due respect, if you can't properly defend corner kicks all season long...that's on the coaching staff. You don't need to have 11 tallest and strongest guys to defend a corner. Ffs, you have 11 guys in your own box defending a ball. Stop with the excuses. Sure the players aren't world class, but the coaching is worse.

Chelsea gives up as much goals this season as Brighton, Newcastle, Burnley, Everton, Tottenham. Do you think those teams' defenses can walk straight into Chelsea's starting 11?

 

Edited July 3, 20206 yr by haviet1

22 hours ago, Andy2461 said:

JT in as a defensive coach ?

I really wish people would stop suggesting this, he's currently overseeing the joint worst defense in the league.

It's one thing organising a defense on the pitch, it's a different ball game doing it as a coach.

7 minutes ago, Argo said:

I really wish people would stop suggesting this, he's currently overseeing the joint worst defense in the league.

It's one thing organising a defense on the pitch, it's a different ball game doing it as a coach.

Give him a shirt and a pair of boots, would be better than what we've got, Two birds with one stone.

 

5 hours ago, coco said:

 

I personally think the main problem at the back has been the quality of the players performances. Players switching off(whu 2nd), terrible rear vision(whu 2nd), being out jumped (disallowed goal and 1st ), out muscled (whu 3rd).

How can Frank make them stronger, or jump higher, or give them rear vision ? It's not very often a team scores against us and i think their wasn't much we could of done about it, it's nearly always down to individual player incompetence.

The next 3-4 players i would concentrate on getting are, at least one center back, a left back, and a keeper, get what we can for Kepa now he's still young, that 6 year contract must never happen again. Sell Christensen and Zouma, sell Alonso or Emerson. Keep Tomori2nd/3rd?, Rudiger3rd/4th? , Azpilicueta as 2nd RB.

Budget £200m.? maybe more.

Frank inherited a bad defense that Sarri tried to hide with 65% possession and 0 risk passes, and that Conte tried to protect by playing 30% possession.

Frank is the only one of the last 3 managers that tries to not hide our defense in any way and it's showing! It looks like we don't even train any defensive setup at times and Lampard is probably aware of that as well. The point is, it's totally understandable that Frank simply doesn't know how to improve our current defensive players, many top managers simply buy new players that's what Pep did he basically got rid of most full backs and bought Mendy,Walker,Danilo/Cancelo and along the way he got rid of Hart and spent first on Bravo and then on Ederson. That's just keepers and full backs for slightly less than 200m!

Both Klopp and Pep did a full overhaul of their defenses while we are here still watching Alonso struggling in his own half as soon as someone passes him the ball, I feel bad for Kova that needs to work with him on that side he's hopeless for everything part from running up the pitch.

We obviously need better players there is no question about it! A new, good LB would do wonders for us I'm sure of it.

We need to sell Christensen, Rudiger, Zouma, Emerson and Alonso. I would keep Tomori and give Azpilicueta 1 more year. Nobody can make Christensen,Zouma,Rudiger and Emerson world class in the PL, Alonso was good under Conte for 1 season due to the new tactics that took teams a long time to adapt to, but he's never going to be a world class LB.

Edited July 3, 20206 yr by Gol15

2 hours ago, haviet1 said:

Sure the players aren't world class

 

You can't shine a turd.

There needs to be a harmony between the quality of defenders and the quality of the defensive coaching, our defenders aren't as bad as they are set up.

For their second goal, Azpi was mismatched against their big CB, Tammy was on the line and failed to clear it because he panicked and couldn't react properly. You need to know your squad and who to put where in those situations, who has the muscle memory of reacting like a defender on the line rather than who is the tallest. Ashley Cole and Ivanovic are very different physically yet both have that ice cold ability to defend in those situations which is why they were put there. For me the coaching and set up is a bigger issue than personnel.

4 hours ago, Argo said:

I really wish people would stop suggesting this, he's currently overseeing the joint worst defense in the league.

It's one thing organising a defense on the pitch, it's a different ball game doing it as a coach.

Also look who Terry is coaching. Elmohamady and Matt Targett ffs.

3 hours ago, coco said:

You can't shine a turd.

 

Go ahead and keep one eye closed, and blame it all on the players. It still does not make the truth goes away.

1 hour ago, haviet1 said:

 

Go ahead and keep one eye closed, and blame it all on the players. It still does not make the truth goes away.

Didn't Frank get the maximum out of the squad so far? And didn't Frank lead us above the initial expectations as well? Is there a player that got worse under Frank? Because personally I was fine with top 6 before the season started, now I hope we can hold on the top 4 till the end.

 

Yes, he did. But he's going to need better assistance to solve the defense. Not just better players.

23 hours ago, coco said:

I'm not sure Frank has done too much wrong with this defensive system. He's drops players when they under perform, all the defenders and the keepers have played a spell of games and had chances to step up to the table, and they do, maybe 2 games out of 3, but then we do a game like West Ham and back to square one, that's why our GD is almost half that of the team immediately above us and below us in the table.

First thing you question are the players, then when it keeps happening you question the manager/system. Now were at the point of blaming players/manager/system and it's become unclear where we need to concentrate our efforts.

I personally think the main problem at the back has been the quality of the players performances. Players switching off(whu 2nd), terrible rear vision(whu 2nd), being out jumped (disallowed goal and 1st ), out muscled (whu 3rd).

How can Frank make them stronger, or jump higher, or give them rear vision ? It's not very often a team scores against us and i think their wasn't much we could of done about it, it's nearly always down to individual player incompetence.

The next 3-4 players i would concentrate on getting are, at least one center back, a left back, and a keeper, get what we can for Kepa now he's still young, that 6 year contract must never happen again. Sell Christensen and Zouma, sell Alonso or Emerson. Keep Tomori2nd/3rd?, Rudiger3rd/4th? , Azpilicueta as 2nd RB.

Budget £200m.? maybe more.

I agree however the problem seems to be bringing in a top level CB.

I mean what player can we realistically sign thats not already at a top club/recently moved there and is available to buy? There are definitely some options, but they seem unlikely.

Either way we need to sell off a good portion of our backline, get what money we can and reinvest it. Even if it has to be Koulibaly and his quite crazy price, I would still rather that than have to witness more of what I've seen the past couple years.

Swap Barkley for Rice (Moyes wants Ross), add some change to sweeten the deal, if needs be. Spend €80m on Koulibaly and sell off one of Zouma/Rudiger/Christensen, depending on who can fetch the highest fee. Rice can cover both CB and CDM positions and Koulibaly will automatically lift our backline by virtue of being there, whoever he's paired up with. His age is an issue but he's the only safe option who's available, albeit for a lot of money. I'd love Ruben Dias or Soyuncu but Koulibaly's experience and leadership make him an ideal candidate for what we desperately need at the back.

Sell Emerson to Inter and bring in Tagliafico, loan out Kepa and buy someone better (I'm sure it's not difficult). Hire an assistant who can organize our defensive setup.

No need to thank me.

 

I said this at the start of the season and I will say it now, no new CB will fix this if you can't setup the defenders you currently have efficiently. Fans are expecting knew defenders to come in and just transform our ability to position or defend as a unit, no that's the coaches job to get them organise and working as a unit, drilling them daily during training. Once you have that then the new defenders will just amplify your work on the training ground with their individual ability.

Am fascinated to understand what we do in training defensively as we look like one of the worst teams when defending and we are certainly not on pure defenders ability which leads me back to coaching.

1 hour ago, driller97 said:

I mean what player can we realistically sign thats not already at a top club/recently moved there and is available to buy? There are definitely some options, but they seem unlikely.

I’d only the club had some sort of department who’s job is was to go out and find these players. Madness I know. 

52 minutes ago, Brutos said:

I said this at the start of the season and I will say it now, no new CB will fix this if you can't setup the defenders you currently have efficiently. Fans are expecting knew defenders to come in and just transform our ability to position or defend as a unit, no that's the coaches job to get them organise and working as a unit, drilling them daily during training. Once you have that then the new defenders will just amplify your work on the training ground with their individual ability.

Am fascinated to understand what we do in training defensively as we look like one of the worst teams when defending and we are certainly not on pure defenders ability which leads me back to coaching.

I think it's both. Better coaching can certainly help us improve and for all their flaws, our defenders aren't nearly as bad as our persistent issues at the back suggest. From what I can gather, Derby last year weren't exactly a solid defensive side either which makes me question Frank and Jody's ability to resolve those problems. For a number of reasons Lamps will survive this season no matter where we finish, but next season it'll be a different story and if he doesn't address those issues in the summer and I don't see any other solution except adding a defensive specialist to his his coaching staff, things may get complicated.

At the same time, no amount of training will turn Rudiger/Christensen into a prime Terry/Carvalho or Gallas. They're decent second tier players who at their absolute best can do relatively well next to world class partners but will never become world class themselves. No matter how much you drill them during training sessions, they'll never lead you to a PL title, let alone give you a shot at the CL. Leicester circa 2016 was a notable exception, of course.

I think it's both. Better coaching can certainly help us improve and for all their flaws, our defenders aren't nearly as bad as our persistent issues at the back suggest. From what I can gather, Derby last year weren't exactly a solid defensive side either which makes me question Frank and Jody's ability to resolve those problems. For a number of reasons Lamps will survive this season no matter where we finish, but next season it'll be a different story and if he doesn't address those issues in the summer and I don't see any other solution except adding a defensive specialist to his his coaching staff, things may get complicated.
At the same time, no amount of training will turn Rudiger/Christensen into a prime Terry/Carvalho or Gallas. They're decent second tier players who at their absolute best can do relatively well next to world class partners but will never become world class themselves. No matter how much you drill them during training sessions, they'll never lead you to a PL title, let alone give you a shot at the CL. Leicester circa 2016 was a notable exception, of course.

I agree with you that no amount of training will get our CB to Ricky/Terry level but they are no way as bad as they are currently made out to be

I think Reece James at right-back and Rudiger are fine, sorry Dave I think your best days are behind you.  So we need a centre-back partner and a left-back.

Christiansen is Luiz jnr.  He has good ball skills, but defensively he has too may mistakes in him.   I hope Tomori will come on, we also have Guehi and Cark-Salter on loan and Ampadu (although  more midfield at Leipzig I believe).  So we may have some CB options.  Not sure what we do about LB, not convinced with Chillwell.

19 minutes ago, fester said:

I think Reece James at right-back and Rudiger are fine, sorry Dave I think your best days are behind you.  So we need a centre-back partner and a left-back.

Christiansen is Luiz jnr.  He has good ball skills, but defensively he has too may mistakes in him.   I hope Tomori will come on, we also have Guehi and Cark-Salter on loan and Ampadu (although  more midfield at Leipzig I believe).  So we may have some CB options.  Not sure what we do about LB, not convinced with Chillwell.

James positionally can be a worry at RB.  I also think Dave's time at the top is running down. 

Not sure on Tomori, in fact the only young player I see that warrants his starting place is Mount.

If we can get decent additions we should loan some out or even sell.

 

4 hours ago, Munkworth said:

I’d only the club had some sort of department who’s job is was to go out and find these players. Madness I know. 

They're not going to find a world class CB that isn't already taken lol

Would anyone take Boly from Wolves?

35 minutes ago, BlackBlue said:

Would anyone take Boly from Wolves?

I think we’d have to pay for him, you can’t just take other teams players. 

21 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

I think we’d have to pay for him, you can’t just take other teams players. 

Good point

Obviously I meant do you think he would be a good signing?