6 hours ago, Van Butsen said:

His balls are great and he gets in excellent position on the byline, not much he can do with one striker to aim for sometimes.

In 76 league appearances he's managed just 9 assists. Considering he gets to take the majority of corners and free kicks too that's an awful return for an attacking midfielder.

Oscar in the same period, in 60 appearances has 12 assists.

Matic in 75 league appearances is just two assists behind him with 7 having largely played as a defensive midfielder.

Willian's output as an attacking player, especially one given so much freedom and responsibility isn't good enough. 

The sum of his offensive game is doing a little shimmy before passing back to Ivanovic.

The sum of his offensive game is doing a little shimmy before passing back to Ivanovic.

Lol. Very true. Really does my head in when he does that.

1 hour ago, Rusty-Man said:

The sum of his offensive game is doing a little shimmy before passing back to Ivanovic.

Thank god I'm not the only one who has noticed that. He has done this 10x a game for the past two seasons. Start Moses who will at least drive at his man

Another fine example of so called work rate over creativity. He does his share of tracking back and closing down, but probably so tried after that to do his main job - attack. He's just so static in attack, with his speed he could easily drag the defenders out of shape by making runs behind lines, never seen that. Most teams are happy to protect the right flank ( against Hazard) and leave left hand side open, because Willian/Ivanovic aren't going to f* all. 

Nobody and I mean nobody makes runs in our side. Everybody waits for the ball to come at their feet. Not sure if it is the players or that's how they have been told to play. Even when we win, our attacks never look fluid

3 hours ago, Rusty-Man said:

The sum of his offensive game is doing a little shimmy before passing back to Ivanovic.

Perhaps having a better RB outside him would do him the world of good?

Opposing defences don't even bother marking Ivanovic. Their tactic seems to be to double up on Willian on that side, hope he passes to the open Ivanovic, who then swings in a useless cross that gets cleared by the first man and turns over possession.

I think both Willian and Hazard would benefit from having someone more dynamic outside them that actually offers a threat, by starting Alonso on the left and Dave on his natural right.

13 hours ago, Rusty-Man said:

The sum of his offensive game is doing a little shimmy before passing back to Ivanovic.

And who's fault is that?  Certainly not his.  He's made the space, he's beaten his defender, yet he has to go back to Ivanovic?  Only 1 striker to aim fore?  No midfielders making a run because we play 2-3 DM's?

I don't think that is a Willian problem if I'm honest.

15 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

In 76 league appearances he's managed just 9 assists. Considering he gets to take the majority of corners and free kicks too that's an awful return for an attacking midfielder.

Oscar in the same period, in 60 appearances has 12 assists.

Matic in 75 league appearances is just two assists behind him with 7 having largely played as a defensive midfielder.

Willian's output as an attacking player, especially one given so much freedom and responsibility isn't good enough. 

After costa, which one of our players could he perhaps tee up for a goal?  There's no one ever making a run, hazard is on the other wing.

I maintain it's not a Wilian problem.

16 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

In 76 league appearances he's managed just 9 assists. Considering he gets to take the majority of corners and free kicks too that's an awful return for an attacking midfielder.

Oscar in the same period, in 60 appearances has 12 assists.

Matic in 75 league appearances is just two assists behind him with 7 having largely played as a defensive midfielder.

Willian's output as an attacking player, especially one given so much freedom and responsibility isn't good enough. 

That's a shocking return for an attacking wide player.

It just highlights how far behind the elite Willian really is. A good worker but doesn't have that drive or ability to be anything more sadly.

What he brings to the team is energy, decent workrate and the ability to dribble out of trouble.

What he doesn't bring are goals or assists.

 

So he would be far more suited to a sort of Ramires-style box to box CM, than being a part of our attack.

1 hour ago, Van Butsen said:

After costa, which one of our players could he perhaps tee up for a goal?  There's no one ever making a run, hazard is on the other wing.

I maintain it's not a Wilian problem.

What about when all of the corners and set pieces he's taken when the box is loaded up with 6ft plus players to aim at? 

Your argument doesn't make sense because in the same period:

Fabregas has managed 26 assists often with little more than Costa to pick out. 

Pedro is only 6 assists behind him having played made less than half the amount of appearances. 

In fact Ivanovic, playing down the same side of the pitch as Willian has managed 7 assists (2 less than Willian) in the league in 67 appearances since Willian came to Chelsea not to mention he has scored just two less league goals in that period too. 

Yet somehow you feel Willian is blameless for his poor return? 

7 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

What about when all of the corners and set pieces he's taken when the box is loaded up with 6ft plus players to aim at? 

Your argument doesn't make sense because in the same period:

Fabregas has managed 26 assists often with little more than Costa to pick out. 

Pedro is only 6 assists behind him having played made less than half the amount of appearances. 

In fact Ivanovic, playing down the same side of the pitch as Willian has managed 7 assists (2 less than Willian) in the league in 67 appearances since Willian came to Chelsea not to mention he has scored just two less league goals in that period too. 

Yet somehow you feel Willian is blameless for his poor return? 

Yeah it's fair to say I don't read into the stats all that much to be honest, I don't think they are that damning.  My argument is nothing to do with the stats.  All the huffing and puffing people talk about leads to him beating his man and getting into great positions to either play a pass or a cross and occasionally to shoot.  It would be nicer if he added more goals, but he creates enough space in the game for others to take advantage of which they don't.  Maybe his still doesn't mesh with every single other play in the team, which is fine, but it's not because he lacks quality in my view.  I don't think that last point is the case, but just putting it out there.

His/Fabregas corners are rubbish, we hit the first man more than any other club, I don't think that's where he is strong.  Ivanovic should have some nice numbers, he is also one of the only players that puts the ball in dangerous positions.

Edit:  Stats never tell the whole story.  I'm not shooting them down in this instance because it suits my argument,  I firmly believe that and post much about it when I can.

Edited September 28, 20169 yr by Van Butsen

3 hours ago, Van Butsen said:

And who's fault is that?  Certainly not his.  He's made the space, he's beaten his defender, yet he has to go back to Ivanovic?  Only 1 striker to aim fore?  No midfielders making a run because we play 2-3 DM's?

I don't think that is a Willian problem if I'm honest.

This is my biggest frustration with Willian. Top players beat their man and then look to get in on goal. Hazard is probably one of the best there is at it but still doesn't do it anything like enough. Sure it's frustrating that often there is only Costa in the box and I think if we played with two up top more often this would help, but sometimes a player like Willian has to take more responsibility. You beat one or a couple of defenders and then look to get in on goal and get your shot away. He rarely does it.

 

14 minutes ago, Nibs said:

This is my biggest frustration with Willian. Top players beat their man and then look to get in on goal. Hazard is probably one of the best there is at it but still doesn't do it anything like enough. Sure it's frustrating that often there is only Costa in the box and I think if we played with two up top more often this would help, but sometimes a player like Willian has to take more responsibility. You beat one or a couple of defenders and then look to get in on goal and get your shot away. He rarely does it.

 

Yeah he needs to shoot a little more but I do think he has picked that up in the last 2 seasons.

Willian will beat his man, then stop and turn back and try to beat him again. Wish he'd just drive into the box and play the ball across more often. Not that Costa is ever in a position to receive it, since he cuts back to the edge of the box every time.

At 27/28 Willian isn't suddenly going to change how he plays in that position.

We know his strengths and his obvious weaknesses, the best thing for us as a club to do is find someone who is more clinical and dangerous in his position. It's clear Willian isn't going to be that player we need going forward.

Edited September 28, 20169 yr by Chelsbear

3 hours ago, Van Butsen said:

And who's fault is that?  Certainly not his.  He's made the space, he's beaten his defender, yet he has to go back to Ivanovic?  Only 1 striker to aim fore?  No midfielders making a run because we play 2-3 DM's?

I don't think that is a Willian problem if I'm honest.

He does not beat his defender though. He receives the ball at his feet, faces his defender, does the weird shimmy before seemingly giving up on the thought of beating his man and playing it back to Ivanovic.

The only time he beats his man is outside his own box where he actually uses his pace and agility to get past them after winning the ball. Everywhere inside the opponents half he doesn't seem willing to beat them.

 

There have been so many times where he is one on one against his fullback and does a little shimmy before passing it back. Instead of drive at them he waits until the whole defence is set before 0's single it sideways/backwards. A big part of us looking useless in attack is his complete lack of offensive game.

 

1 hour ago, Rusty-Man said:

He does not beat his defender though. He receives the ball at his feet, faces his defender, does the weird shimmy before seemingly giving up on the thought of beating his man and playing it back to Ivanovic.

The only time he beats his man is outside his own box where he actually uses his pace and agility to get past them after winning the ball. Everywhere inside the opponents half he doesn't seem willing to beat them.

 

There have been so many times where he is one on one against his fullback and does a little shimmy before passing it back. Instead of drive at them he waits until the whole defence is set before 0's single it sideways/backwards. A big part of us looking useless in attack is his complete lack of offensive game.

 

You're not really saying anything different here?  I agree he goes back to Ivanovic a lot.

Hazard is forced to go back to Dave many times a game as well.  There are so many times where Willian has done a lot of great work with very little outlet to then pass to as we don't have anyone other than Costa in front of him.

Is it outside of their box or outside of their half where he does uses his pace, agility?  You're a little unclear

13 minutes ago, Van Butsen said:

You're not really saying anything different here?  I agree he goes back to Ivanovic a lot.

Hazard is forced to go back to Dave many times a game as well.  There are so many times where Willian has done a lot of great work with very little outlet to then pass to as we don't have anyone other than Costa in front of him.

Is it outside of their box or outside of their half where he does uses his pace, agility?  You're a little unclear

Outside of our box. When he wins the ball deep in his own half is the only time he takes players on.

Just now, Rusty-Man said:

Outside of our box. When he wins the ball deep in his own half is the only time he takes players on.

Plenty of complication vids out there would prove otherwise, or just watching a game or two.

Well this thread certainly has been quite since yesterday. Who would have thought having someone other than Ivanovic playing behind him would open things up a lot more for him?

Edited October 2, 20169 yr by Jonty

3 hours ago, Jonty said:

Well this thread certainly has been quite since yesterday. Who would have thought having someone other than Ivanovic playing behind him would open things up a lot more for him?

Well for me I'm thinking the same as Roy Keanes response to Walcott being in the form of his life, that was funny.

He was playing as a central player yesterday. Seems a much better fit for his attributes then as a winger where he is pretty ineffective.  Rather Willian then Oscar. 

 

It wasn't a good performance either way. Hull completely deteriorated and his lack of a final ball or any decisive movement meant we still struggled to score. 

31 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Well for me I'm thinking the same as Roy Keanes response to Walcott being in the form of his life, that was funny.

That might be relevant had Willian not been named our player of the season all of 3 months ago.