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The youth system


Eton Blue at the Chelsea Megastore

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13 hours ago, Argo said:

That imo is the fact people look for the good in the youth and bad in first teamers in this type of situation, for the same reason people were convinced Josh could have successfully filled in for out of sorts Lamps in 10/11 but the reality was something else. That said Nate can be a good squad player and would have no complaints with him remaining as such and im not even keen of Matic, but let's just say there's a reason one is wanted by United while the other (should he decide to leave) is likely going to Watford.

No,

It's not that we look for the good in youth and bad in first teamers. Matic is now 28 and an experienced player so he should have got all the flaws out of his game and he should be pretty much the finished article. Chalobah on the other hand is still only 22 with a handful of first team appearances so has the right to be given some slack.

And yes, Utd are linked with Matic 'cos we all know Mourinho is a fan and what his preferred type of player is. You won't see any other big clubs in for him.

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9 minutes ago, Nibs said:

No,

It's not that we look for the good in youth and bad in first teamers. Matic is now 28 and an experienced player so he should have got all the flaws out of his game and he should be pretty much the finished article. Chalobah on the other hand is still only 22 with a handful of first team appearances so has the right to be given some slack.

And yes, Utd are linked with Matic 'cos we all know Mourinho is a fan and what his preferred type of player is. You won't see any other big clubs in for him.

Juve wanted him last year after his "worst" season for us. Matic is a very good player who has his limitations but so does every player and Matic is still one of the better midfielders around. There is a reason he was keeping Fabregas and Chalobah out of the team. 

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18 minutes ago, PedroMendez said:

Juve wanted him last year after his "worst" season for us. Matic is a very good player who has his limitations but so does every player and Matic is still one of the better midfielders around. There is a reason he was keeping Fabregas and Chalobah out of the team. 

He is good on his day but if he was still "one of the best midfielders around" we wouldn't be happy to offload him.

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Just now, Nibs said:

He is good on his day but if he was still "one of the best midfielders around" we wouldn't be happy to offload him.

I don't think we are looking to offload him, I think Bakayoko is being signed as a rotation option to eventually take Matic's place next season or after he isn't at the same level as Matic yet but I guess my statement was a bit strong maybe that should say in the BPL.

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For the coming season, we already have 3 players in the PL. We probably will have more, all we need is playing time for them.

Ake (sold) - Bournemouth

Abraham ( loan ) - Swansea

Palmer ( loan ) - Huddersfield

Isiah Brown - wanted by PL club.

Chalobah - wanted by PL clubs.

Loftus-Cheek - wanted by PL clubs.

 

It's always good to see our youngsters wanted by PL clubs, but I want at least one of them staying with us and gaining experience with us. I find it as a positive point, seeing our youngsters wanted by PL clubs, but they've to play as much as they can.

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11 minutes ago, IliyaKrostin said:

For the coming season, we already have 3 players in the PL. We probably will have more, all we need is playing time for them.

Ake (sold) - Bournemouth

Abraham ( loan ) - Swansea

Palmer ( loan ) - Huddersfield

Isiah Brown - wanted by PL club.

Chalobah - wanted by PL clubs.

Loftus-Cheek - wanted by PL clubs.

 

It's always good to see our youngsters wanted by PL clubs, but I want at least one of them staying with us and gaining experience with us. I find it as a positive point, seeing our youngsters wanted by PL clubs, but they've to play as much as they can.

Sell them all apart from Chalobah. 

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Just thinking what with Bath's comments on CFC website about how they want the youth to get first team experience earlier so that they can try and break through before they're 22 (à la Bertrand / Chalobah).. http://www.chelseafc.com/news/latest-news/2017/07/the-young-generation.html this might explain the ease with which we're letting Traore, Ake and now maybe Chalobah leave. They're thinking nah, they don't look the real deal, they're too old to be getting 10-20 odd appearances/season and hoping to really prove something. 

Maybe this will mean seeing our homegrown quota being taken up by last year's youth champs... getting the likes of Trev Chalobah, Mount, Hudson-Odoi, Sterling, Da Silva in the squad instead of Chalobah, RLC, Ake, etc. 

Definitely wishful thinking, but there's some logic there. They're admitting the loan system isn't working for first-team prospects so we need to give them a chance earlier....or loan them out instead of winning youth champs, which seems a more realistic option. 

Just can't understand loaning out or letting go of most our young homegrown talent in the squad... there must be some promotions on the way?

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17 hours ago, IliyaKrostin said:

For the coming season, we already have 3 players in the PL. We probably will have more, all we need is playing time for them.

Ake (sold) - Bournemouth

Abraham ( loan ) - Swansea

Palmer ( loan ) - Huddersfield

Isiah Brown - wanted by PL club.

Chalobah - wanted by PL clubs.

Loftus-Cheek - wanted by PL clubs.

 

It's always good to see our youngsters wanted by PL clubs, but I want at least one of them staying with us and gaining experience with us. I find it as a positive point, seeing our youngsters wanted by PL clubs, but they've to play as much as they can.

Majority of them are English now as well which coupled with it's not Premier League teams chasing them proves our system is working and improving.

I have posted before about how developing an academy takes time and it can take upto 15 years before you see the fruits. I believe we signed the batch of Piazon, van Ginkel, Wallace etc etc as the at the time current batch of HG players weren't up to snuff. I have compared it to a fruit and veg stall owner having to buy his stock from an outside source while waiting for his own crops to mature.

Now a large portion of our "loan army" are English and our youth teams down through the ages are almost exclusively English too. For this we receive absolutely no credit.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/2/2017 at 00:31, Scottish_mike said:

Is anyone else getting seriously pis..d off with our youth system producing so much good talent for other teams?

Ake being sold all be it for a good price, was the last straw for me on any hopes of players breaking into our team, solanke knew this hence why he left. 

Why as fans can we see players talents but the board cant until were buying them back for stupid money.

 

 

I keep reading this argument that Chelsea buy back youth team players for silly money.  Can someone tell me one?  The old grey matter isn't what it used to be, but I'm seriously drawing a blank here.

And before anyone says Matic, he wasn't a YT product with us.  Bought for about 1.5 million, sold to Benfica for something in the low 20 million mark, and we got Luiz in that deal too who we sold and bought back for a tidy profit... so, please tell me where people are coming up with this theory that we buy back kids we've developed then sold for crazy money?

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1 hour ago, mad_mac said:

I keep reading this argument that Chelsea buy back youth team players for silly money.  Can someone tell me one?  The old grey matter isn't what it used to be, but I'm seriously drawing a blank here.

And before anyone says Matic, he wasn't a YT product with us.  Bought for about 1.5 million, sold to Benfica for something in the low 20 million mark, and we got Luiz in that deal too who we sold and bought back for a tidy profit... so, please tell me where people are coming up with this theory that we buy back kids we've developed then sold for crazy money?

Good point it's literally just Matic, and would've been Lukaku... so no one from the academy...

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Genuine home-grown top class talent is rare amongst the top European sides - why should it be any different for us?

There's around 500 squad players in the PL sucked in from the global gene pool which drives up entry standards.

With literally millions of kids dreaming of playing 'footy' in the top flight it would be a miracle for CFC or any other club to identify 'the one' at a young age.  If it was easy there would've been more than one JT - and who's to say that wasn't an absolute fluke?

X Factor mentality doesn't help - I was talking to guy the other day whose 10 year old son plays for a local (Lake District for me) team and he is stone-walled convinced the kid has a "brilliant future" as the club coach has told him he is "an amazing natural talent".  I think fans as well as parents etc buy into this crap - I've lost track of the latest and greatest kids we've had 'coming through' over the few decades I've been supporting Chelsea.

So what if the Academy is a profit centre - helps us buy better players to stay at the top level.

Interesting to note that it used to be the lack of local  talent getting through that caused angst but now it is home-grown - just shows that sentiment is maybe moving with the times too!

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, mad_mac said:

I keep reading this argument that Chelsea buy back youth team players for silly money.  Can someone tell me one?  The old grey matter isn't what it used to be, but I'm seriously drawing a blank here.

And before anyone says Matic, he wasn't a YT product with us.  Bought for about 1.5 million, sold to Benfica for something in the low 20 million mark, and we got Luiz in that deal too who we sold and bought back for a tidy profit... so, please tell me where people are coming up with this theory that we buy back kids we've developed then sold for crazy money?

His value in the Luiz deal was nowhere near £20m. It was probably about £3m, and webought him back for £21m or so. For all his faults, he's been a great signing, and we should make a fair bit if/when we sell him this summer.

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37 minutes ago, Backbiter said:

His value in the Luiz deal was nowhere near £20m. It was probably about £3m, and webought him back for £21m or so. For all his faults, he's been a great signing, and we should make a fair bit if/when we sell him this summer.

he still isn't part of our YT, that's my main point.  This argument that we sell kids off to buy them back later at silly prices is unfounded.

Sure we've let some good prospects go, but we've never bought any back.  And despite people that say "but look how much KDB and Lukaku went for," again, we didn't re-sign those players, and they were never part of our YT anyway

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10 hours ago, Bloo said:

Genuine home-grown top class talent is rare amongst the top European sides - why should it be any different for us?

There's around 500 squad players in the PL sucked in from the global gene pool which drives up entry standards.

With literally millions of kids dreaming of playing 'footy' in the top flight it would be a miracle for CFC or any other club to identify 'the one' at a young age.  If it was easy there would've been more than one JT - and who's to say that wasn't an absolute fluke?

X Factor mentality doesn't help - I was talking to guy the other day whose 10 year old son plays for a local (Lake District for me) team and he is stone-walled convinced the kid has a "brilliant future" as the club coach has told him he is "an amazing natural talent".  I think fans as well as parents etc buy into this crap - I've lost track of the latest and greatest kids we've had 'coming through' over the few decades I've been supporting Chelsea.

So what if the Academy is a profit centre - helps us buy better players to stay at the top level.

Interesting to note that it used to be the lack of local  talent getting through that caused angst but now it is home-grown - just shows that sentiment is maybe moving with the times too!

 

 

 

Maybe fans just want to see more domestic players in the team. Not too much to ask

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1 hour ago, TheChelseaBlues said:

Maybe fans just want to see more domestic players in the team. Not too much to ask

Why though/  What difference does it make.  A player is a player is a player...

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3 minutes ago, Bloo said:

Why though/  What difference does it make.  A player is a player is a player...

Well its natural English fans want to see English players in their team. There's also the homegrown quota to consider from the practical standpoint. 

My local team SKC have a few players from their metro area and it gets fans excited to go watch and buy tickets and shirts. It's also probably a little extra motivation for the players to play for the club they've grown up with

Edited by TheChelseaBlues
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Just now, TheChelseaBlues said:

Well its natural English fans want to see English players in their team. There's also the homegrown quota to consider from the practical standpoint

 

I get the HG angle but that's just rank officialdom trying to paddle the canoe upstream.  Couldn't give a hoot tbh re English players playing for us - if I had I would've stopped supporting years back.

Maybe I am just shameless - buy the best in and win the lot. ::ChELSeAFaN::

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Yeah, the Terry and Lampard duo was great. Heart of Chelsea and they absolutely gave everything for the club.

I do miss having a English footballer who loves Chelsea, like these two, Ashley Cole and even Joe Cole.

Gary Cahill is okay but he's nowhere near as influential as these players were.

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  • 2 weeks later...
6 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

I'm glad you beat me to it. Great article to read. 

"People can argue about the relative strength of the Premier League compared to La Liga, but with the Premier League’s declining performances in Europe year-on-year, are we really pulling the “strength” card? Nathaniel Chalobah was not good enough to start a single game when N’Golo Kanté and Nemanja Mati? looked tired? Lewis Baker is not good enough to play against Brighton or Huddersfield? Jérémie Boga is not good enough to play at least 1,000 minutes next season? 30 minutes (home/away) against the bottom 10 in the Premier League (600 minutes) + starts against the fourth seed in the Champions League group (180 minutes) + starts in all cup competitions (180 minutes minimum) = almost 1,000 minutes of football (conservatively). Is that so hard to manufacture for a top class youngster? The way some fans talk about academy players is as if we are dropping a Sunday League competition winner into the side and not a top calibre youth international."

 

"Marcus Rashford’s emergence at Manchester United was less by design than it was complete luck. His arrival came a few months after he was completely marked out of a game by Fikayo Tomori, as Chelsea U18s swept Manchester United U18s 5-1 in the FA Youth Cup."

 

"Ultimately, if the board are sincere about having some academy presence within the first team, then changes are required. Honestly, it is not difficult to manufacture minutes for a top prospect. Mohamed Salah, who could barely control a football at Chelsea, managed to play 500 Premier League minutes in half a season. So, it cannot be difficult to find 1,000 minutes across all competitions for an academy player. The club must either make development a key performance indicator for a head coach or give the head coach long enough to implement an entire philosophical overhaul without pulling the plug halfway through. Either way the coach must feel confident enough in their own future to want to commit to developing players."

 

In a nutshell. It presents both sides of the coin but I thought a common thread throughtout was we/the top 4 should be bringing in top level players and supplementing them with academy players if we want them to develop here at the club. 

There's something in here for everyone, it addresses my favorite, or least favorite, peeve in Hiddink for some reason giving none of our young players a run out when we had 2 months of nothing to play for. 

I found it depressing Sane has played more PL minutes for City than the entire Chelsea team his Shalke team played. 

It also dispells the notion no elite clubs use academy products, they just don't buy good players who will never be 1st choice to block those young players from having a chance. 

Maybe this is a large part of the reason why we see English clubs paying so much more for players than German or Italian teams. Our top clubs are more willing to buy 'good' players to fill out their benches and we're paying through the nose for it. 

Edited by TheChelseaBlues
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