1 hour ago, Mário César said:

we need to pay100M for him

without ucl its very dangerous 

We could genuinely get both Lavia and Kone together for that amount. 

On 05/03/2023 at 22:02, Argo said:

As a club captain West Ham fans thinks he's a massive downgrade on Noble.

Do you have something that backs this up?

1 minute ago, dkw said:

Do you have something that backs this up?

Saw it on their forum KUMB (I think around that time he called out Roy Keane and/or the supporters).

I haven't got time right now but for the sake of the argument I'll try and find it later on/tomorow.

57 minutes ago, Argo said:

We really don't 

I think that is West Ham demand to leave Rice

I really doubt that they will sell him for less than that kind of amount 

17 minutes ago, Mário César said:

I think that is West Ham demand to leave Rice

I really doubt that they will sell him for less than that kind of amount 

They also have an option to extend so he isn't on his last year as some are suggesting. 

 

3 hours ago, dkw said:

Do you have something that backs this up?

 

2 hours ago, Argo said:

Saw it on their forum KUMB (I think around that time he called out Roy Keane and/or the supporters).

I haven't got time right now but for the sake of the argument I'll try and find it later on/tomorow.

Just between pages 554 and 558 alone. Regardless of who ends up closer to being right about him between us it looks like he isn't a leader regardless, atleast not for the foreseeable future anyway.

https://www.kumb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=169193&sid=fb9e0c0aed9f053f805f64c02859407d&start=11060

"to be honest though, and it's been a fair comment there's been times when he could have led by example here.

Wednesday being an fair "criticism" when a Noble needed to be more of a calming influence to see us over the rough spot we were in at that time.

in Jack's breakdown, and it was something that I missed completely is that Oggie failed to help us over that period too, and in fact made it worse......"

 

"Quite possibly his worst game for use since he ducked out of a header when playing defence in his first season.

He is no where near mature enough to be a captain."

 

"I think he lets the side down aswell. doesnt come across as much of a leader. just waves his arms a lot and gets very very petulant.

he is apparently one of the best CDMs around. how on earth in that case is our midfield so easily bypassed exposing the centre backs?"

 

"I think Rice is doing his best to drive his price down.

He has been poor by his own high standards of the two previous seasons. I don't beleive he is mature enough to be club or team captain at this time. That will come, but, imho, it was too soon for Rice. He may better player, but he is not Mark Noble."

 

"see i dont judge his commitment to the team, and he is allowed a bad game however its a constant for this teams midfield to get bypassed when he is the one whos suppose to protect the back line (like he does for england fantastically)

giving him the armband was one of the worst things that we could do to him. he isnt mature enough and its hampered him

people will go "oh but last season he was captain" he wasnt. noble was. he did all the off the pitch stuff. rice was just the captain on the pitch. rice isnt a good CLUB captain and now the chips are down he isnt even a good team captain tbh."

 

"ogbonna would have made an excellent club captain. he is a model pro and a leader. players respect him

id of had him over rice

fabianski another"

 

"Not a leader."

 

"again. not questioning his commitment to the club. I question his suitability as a choice of leader

he is not a good captain"

 

"I dont see rice leading the team. grabbing a game by the scruff of the neck.

I see him sulking"

 

"Fair enough.. i still stand by he isn't a good captain.

Not saying he doesn't care or isn't commited to the club

And by no means is he a bad player

But he isn't ready to lead"

 

"How by my definition is that the same?

Noble wasn't the most amazing player but he was a good leader. He set a good example.

Always lead by example on the pitch

Think you might be reaching if you are claiming it fits my definition of a poor captain

Never said not playing made you a bad captain.

I was never nobles biggest fan as a player but as a captain always thought he did a good job."

 

"If you go back enough I'm sure you will find a fair few posts calling out rice playing further forward last season costing our shape and defensive strength

So nope weren't all adoring him last season.

Good player, when he is played Cdm . Awful captain"

 

"At the risk of stating the obvious, best players don't necessarily make best captains.

I don't know how positive his influence is off the pitch but as a team mate I would dislike the increasing petulance he displays on the pitch, including regularly throwing his arms in the air when a team mate has made a mistake or not read a pass or not made a run. It's also far from ideal when you know your captain is most likely leaving at the end of the season."

 

"I just dont think hes strong enough right now to captain this club, couple that with his personal game not being good enough at the moment… i just dont think hes the on field answer to get us out of this…… hes gone quiet"

 

"He’s out of his depth"

 

"Can you imagine Dec giving it to Antonio - a player who openly went for Noble in the dressing room when Nobes was captain? Not gonna happen.

Rudderless.."

2 hours ago, Argo said:

 

Just between pages 554 and 558 alone. Regardless of who ends up closer to being right about him between us it looks like he isn't a leader regardless, atleast not for the foreseeable future anyway.

https://www.kumb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=169193&sid=fb9e0c0aed9f053f805f64c02859407d&start=11060

"to be honest though, and it's been a fair comment there's been times when he could have led by example here.

Wednesday being an fair "criticism" when a Noble needed to be more of a calming influence to see us over the rough spot we were in at that time.

in Jack's breakdown, and it was something that I missed completely is that Oggie failed to help us over that period too, and in fact made it worse......"

 

"Quite possibly his worst game for use since he ducked out of a header when playing defence in his first season.

He is no where near mature enough to be a captain."

 

"I think he lets the side down aswell. doesnt come across as much of a leader. just waves his arms a lot and gets very very petulant.

he is apparently one of the best CDMs around. how on earth in that case is our midfield so easily bypassed exposing the centre backs?"

 

"I think Rice is doing his best to drive his price down.

He has been poor by his own high standards of the two previous seasons. I don't beleive he is mature enough to be club or team captain at this time. That will come, but, imho, it was too soon for Rice. He may better player, but he is not Mark Noble."

 

"see i dont judge his commitment to the team, and he is allowed a bad game however its a constant for this teams midfield to get bypassed when he is the one whos suppose to protect the back line (like he does for england fantastically)

giving him the armband was one of the worst things that we could do to him. he isnt mature enough and its hampered him

people will go "oh but last season he was captain" he wasnt. noble was. he did all the off the pitch stuff. rice was just the captain on the pitch. rice isnt a good CLUB captain and now the chips are down he isnt even a good team captain tbh."

 

"ogbonna would have made an excellent club captain. he is a model pro and a leader. players respect him

id of had him over rice

fabianski another"

 

"Not a leader."

 

"again. not questioning his commitment to the club. I question his suitability as a choice of leader

he is not a good captain"

 

"I dont see rice leading the team. grabbing a game by the scruff of the neck.

I see him sulking"

 

"Fair enough.. i still stand by he isn't a good captain.

Not saying he doesn't care or isn't commited to the club

And by no means is he a bad player

But he isn't ready to lead"

 

"How by my definition is that the same?

Noble wasn't the most amazing player but he was a good leader. He set a good example.

Always lead by example on the pitch

Think you might be reaching if you are claiming it fits my definition of a poor captain

Never said not playing made you a bad captain.

I was never nobles biggest fan as a player but as a captain always thought he did a good job."

 

"If you go back enough I'm sure you will find a fair few posts calling out rice playing further forward last season costing our shape and defensive strength

So nope weren't all adoring him last season.

Good player, when he is played Cdm . Awful captain"

 

"At the risk of stating the obvious, best players don't necessarily make best captains.

I don't know how positive his influence is off the pitch but as a team mate I would dislike the increasing petulance he displays on the pitch, including regularly throwing his arms in the air when a team mate has made a mistake or not read a pass or not made a run. It's also far from ideal when you know your captain is most likely leaving at the end of the season."

 

"I just dont think hes strong enough right now to captain this club, couple that with his personal game not being good enough at the moment… i just dont think hes the on field answer to get us out of this…… hes gone quiet"

 

"He’s out of his depth"

 

"Can you imagine Dec giving it to Antonio - a player who openly went for Noble in the dressing room when Nobes was captain? Not gonna happen.

Rudderless.."

This is very telling. I have a few mates who support west ham and some content creators I watch online who say a pretty similar thing. They don't think he holds a candle to Noble and never will even if he spent the rest of his career there.  

Think most people just wanted to sign him because he's mount's friend and his fugazi "leadership" qualities which have now been debunked. Lets just hope arsenal save us by signing him instead, we need to keep far away.

12 minutes ago, Big Nigel said:

This is very telling. I have a few mates who support west ham and some content creators I watch online who say a pretty similar thing. They don't think he holds a candle to Noble and never will even if he spent the rest of his career there.  

Think most people just wanted to sign him because he's mount's friend and his fugazi "leadership" qualities which have now been debunked. Lets just hope arsenal save us by signing him instead, we need to keep far away.

Not to mention the comment on WHU's midfield being bypassed, which was the biggest stick used against Jorginho and what he was suppose to fix if we got him.

Football fans, on the whole, have no idea what leadership looks like, what contribution a player makes behind closed doors, or indeed what it is they want a captain to do.

One quote above: "[Rice] regularly throwing his arms in the air when a team mate has made a mistake" was used as evidence of petulance when, if the mood of this particular jury was less pissy, could quite as easily have been characterised as Rice being the only person on the pitch trying to enforce standards. 

Rice is an excellent player; he could immediately fill a hole in our midfield in a way a new signing hasn't since Fábregas. He is Premier League ready, and as a bonus, is association-trained. Much like Mount, it would be to our detriment if we don't get to have Rice in our team, and we would be doubly punished if he were to play for a team with whom we are in direct competition. If anybody, 'content creator' or otherwise, honestly prefers Mark Noble to Declan Rice then I really can't help them. Presumably they would also choose Jody Morris over Nemanja Matić.

11 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Think he ends up at Arsenal. 

 

8 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

They also have an option to extend so he isn't on his last year as some are suggesting. 

 

Would he want to come here if we sold Mount?

2 hours ago, PloKoon13 said:

Football fans, on the whole, have no idea what leadership looks like, what contribution a player makes behind closed doors, or indeed what it is they want a captain to do.

One quote above: "[Rice] regularly throwing his arms in the air when a team mate has made a mistake" was used as evidence of petulance when, if the mood of this particular jury was less pissy, could quite as easily have been characterised as Rice being the only person on the pitch trying to enforce standards. 

Rice is an excellent player; he could immediately fill a hole in our midfield in a way a new signing hasn't since Fábregas. He is Premier League ready, and as a bonus, is association-trained. Much like Mount, it would be to our detriment if we don't get to have Rice in our team, and we would be doubly punished if he were to play for a team with whom we are in direct competition. If anybody, 'content creator' or otherwise, honestly prefers Mark Noble to Declan Rice then I really can't help them. Presumably they would also choose Jody Morris over Nemanja Matić.

They weren't preferring Noble as a player, as a captain. And I really don't like Prem proven being used as a metric to be honest, we've been burned signing players of that category many times.

I prefer system proven as Enzo Fernandez was, and he's fitted in like he's he's here years.

Rice is a player I would be happy if we signed, but I think that's partly because I know much more about him and have seen him play much more than the other DM options being discussed.

I couldn't tell you if he's better than Lavia, Kone, Thuram, or whoever else.
 

9 hours ago, Argo said:

I really don't like Prem proven being used as a metric

Completely agree. We've seen plenty of CMs/DMs come into the prem in recent years and immediately adapt and fit in.

 

It's the price that is so off putting, and truth be told there is misconception towards Rice and his ability as a footballer. I don't doubt his ability as a ball winner, it's the first phase of the build up and his tendency to hide or shy away from it is my concern. It's why the Rice replacing Jorginho argument never made sense to me. 

 

Think the market for CMs at the moment is very good. 

Bellingham, Zubimendi, Lavia, Koné, Thuram, Ugarte, 

If Rice was going abroad the price would be around £70 million I reckon.

Is he worth £100million? Probably not but it where his price is for another Premier League team. 
 

If we sign Felix which I think we should then there is no danger of Rice joining us especially if Kante stays which I think he will.

 

#Chelsea, Man Utd and PSG are all 'following' and 'interested' in Borussia Mönchengladbach's Manu Koné. A summer move would be worth at least €50M with add-ons. Chelsea are also interested in Romeo Lavia and Declan Rice.

[via @FabrizioRomano / YouTube]

— Absolute Chelsea (@AbsoluteChelsea) March 27, 2023

On 16/03/2023 at 18:58, Argo said:

 

Just between pages 554 and 558 alone. Regardless of who ends up closer to being right about him between us it looks like he isn't a leader regardless, atleast not for the foreseeable future anyway.

https://www.kumb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=169193&sid=fb9e0c0aed9f053f805f64c02859407d&start=11060

"to be honest though, and it's been a fair comment there's been times when he could have led by example here.

Wednesday being an fair "criticism" when a Noble needed to be more of a calming influence to see us over the rough spot we were in at that time.

in Jack's breakdown, and it was something that I missed completely is that Oggie failed to help us over that period too, and in fact made it worse......"

 

"Quite possibly his worst game for use since he ducked out of a header when playing defence in his first season.

He is no where near mature enough to be a captain."

 

"I think he lets the side down aswell. doesnt come across as much of a leader. just waves his arms a lot and gets very very petulant.

he is apparently one of the best CDMs around. how on earth in that case is our midfield so easily bypassed exposing the centre backs?"

 

"I think Rice is doing his best to drive his price down.

He has been poor by his own high standards of the two previous seasons. I don't beleive he is mature enough to be club or team captain at this time. That will come, but, imho, it was too soon for Rice. He may better player, but he is not Mark Noble."

 

"see i dont judge his commitment to the team, and he is allowed a bad game however its a constant for this teams midfield to get bypassed when he is the one whos suppose to protect the back line (like he does for england fantastically)

giving him the armband was one of the worst things that we could do to him. he isnt mature enough and its hampered him

people will go "oh but last season he was captain" he wasnt. noble was. he did all the off the pitch stuff. rice was just the captain on the pitch. rice isnt a good CLUB captain and now the chips are down he isnt even a good team captain tbh."

 

"ogbonna would have made an excellent club captain. he is a model pro and a leader. players respect him

id of had him over rice

fabianski another"

 

"Not a leader."

 

"again. not questioning his commitment to the club. I question his suitability as a choice of leader

he is not a good captain"

 

"I dont see rice leading the team. grabbing a game by the scruff of the neck.

I see him sulking"

 

"Fair enough.. i still stand by he isn't a good captain.

Not saying he doesn't care or isn't commited to the club

And by no means is he a bad player

But he isn't ready to lead"

 

"How by my definition is that the same?

Noble wasn't the most amazing player but he was a good leader. He set a good example.

Always lead by example on the pitch

Think you might be reaching if you are claiming it fits my definition of a poor captain

Never said not playing made you a bad captain.

I was never nobles biggest fan as a player but as a captain always thought he did a good job."

 

"If you go back enough I'm sure you will find a fair few posts calling out rice playing further forward last season costing our shape and defensive strength

So nope weren't all adoring him last season.

Good player, when he is played Cdm . Awful captain"

 

"At the risk of stating the obvious, best players don't necessarily make best captains.

I don't know how positive his influence is off the pitch but as a team mate I would dislike the increasing petulance he displays on the pitch, including regularly throwing his arms in the air when a team mate has made a mistake or not read a pass or not made a run. It's also far from ideal when you know your captain is most likely leaving at the end of the season."

 

"I just dont think hes strong enough right now to captain this club, couple that with his personal game not being good enough at the moment… i just dont think hes the on field answer to get us out of this…… hes gone quiet"

 

"He’s out of his depth"

 

"Can you imagine Dec giving it to Antonio - a player who openly went for Noble in the dressing room when Nobes was captain? Not gonna happen.

Rudderless.."

You should of saw some of things West Ham fans said about Lampard when he was playing there. Rednapp had to publically defend in a press conference. Most of them couldn't stand him.

Personally Argo I don't think there is any doubt that Rice is maturing nicely as a footballer. Whether he is the best option for us is another matter. But he is a quality player and I can totally see why Arsenal and probably United are prepared to go hard for him in the summer.

32 minutes ago, just said:

You should of saw some of things West Ham fans said about Lampard when he was playing there. Rednapp had to publically defend in a press conference. Most of them couldn't stand him.

Personally Argo I don't think there is any doubt that Rice is maturing nicely as a footballer. Whether he is the best option for us is another matter. But he is a quality player and I can totally see why Arsenal and probably United are prepared to go hard for him in the summer.

Can't see United going for him given they have Casemiro who unfortunately doesn't look like slowly down.

Anyway this post is more about him as a captain than a player.

I think it's a valid discussion given there's been talk of him getting the armband long term if he came here.

In all seriousness I think there is every chance if Mason leaves Rices interest in coming to us diminishes.

2 hours ago, axman2526 said:

In all seriousness I think there is every chance if Mason leaves Rices interest in coming to us diminishes.

Doubt it.

Thiago Silva came here a year after his best mate was axed by the same manager.

If we sell the project and/or offer him the best package he will arrive regardless of Mount. Personal relations only go so far in football.

Edited March 30, 20233 yr by Argo

31 minutes ago, Argo said:

Doubt it.

Thiago Silva came here a year after his best mate was axed by the same manager.

If we sell the project and/or offer him the best package he will arrive regardless of Mount. Personal relations only go so far in football.

Hmm, we will see. Though if Mount is unhappy with what we are offering him, woild we be able to offer Rice what he wants?

9 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Hmm, we will see. Though if Mount is unhappy with what we are offering him, woild we be able to offer Rice what he wants?

Whikle I doubt the accuracty of their reports, the media is reporting Mount wants a shorter contract and less incentive-based wages (ie he is actually risking less job certainty). If Rice comes he will be offered a long-term contract with a wage upgrade so issues would be unlikely

8 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Whikle I doubt the accuracty of their reports, the media is reporting Mount wants a shorter contract and less incentive-based wages (ie he is actually risking less job certainty). If Rice comes he will be offered a long-term contract with a wage upgrade so issues would be unlikely

Although with Arsenal also after him and apparently offering Saka a net of 300k a week, whereas we have adopted the incentive-based contracts, it may prove he is offered a better guaranteed package by them.

Think he's going to Arsenal for £70-100m I reckon. 

Think Shields, Stewart, and Vivell are pushing for Kone and/or Lavia. 

 

On 16/03/2023 at 12:33, Big Nigel said:

Watched him play plenty, especially this season. If he was as good as some of you claim he is maybe west ham wouldnt be battling relegation. Keep him away from this club.

Robertson got relegated with Hull and went on to be the best LB in the league the following season. Lazy argument.