I honestly feel our squad isn't too bad. It just needs a few players and a few areas and we can comfortably challenge with City.

We aren't City's level but were are definitely at Liverpool's level or at least not too far from them. I think we've just been unlucky over the last few months with injuries and COVID. Other than Rudiger and Mendy, all the players you mentioned as having title winning potential or top four-level have all suffered from COVID and/or injuries at some point of the season. If they were all fit, I firmly believe we would have either still been 1st, level on points with City, or 2nd with a 3 to 1 point gap between us.

What we lack right now as you've shown is reliable back ups for the top two rows of players you mentioned. When we get injuries, our second string players aren't good enough to fill in the shoes of our main boys. Liverpool also suffer the same issue since they struggled last season with injuries and have looked better this year with a healthy squad. I think what Cech and Marina have to focus on moving forward is to get more reliable back-ups/people that can compete with our starters versus big money signings and get rid of the Barkley's and Niguez's of this world. 

14 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

It’s so annoying how all of the attackers we’ve signed that summer have flopped.

Havertz - Underwhelming.

Werner - Good team player but still massively disappointing.

Ziyech - Crap.

Imagine if they all excelled? We’d have a right team. As always signings don’t live up to their name.

Honestly, this is the biggest issue. We aren't getting the output of stats that were expected from Havertz, Ziyech and Werner. Based on their stats before they signed for us, they should be contributing a lot more goals and assists to team. Ziyech and Havertz especially look like they are afraid to shoot every time they are in a goal scoring position. 

1 hour ago, ducavis said:

Pep does have one of the smallest squads in the league, he doesn’t seem to get any credit for that though. The whole £50m defenders on the bench is a short term fix, and he came out a few seasons ago & said players don’t want to be sat on the bench. They had a huge squad turnover when that was still a thing, but he has had to work with a much smaller squad. 
Ferran Torres has been injured for most of the season, and has been sold to Barca. Pep has said Cole Palmer a youth player will replace him. They never replaced Aguero, Mendy has been locked up for most of the season, and Fernandinho is 36.

They have 4 CB’s in Laporte, Diaz, Stones & Ake ( We have 5)

3 FBs in Cancelo, Walker & Zincheko ( we have 4)

5 Midfielders in De Bruyne, Gundogan, Silva, Rodri & Fernandinho ( we have 6)

5 FWs in Foden, Grealish, Jesus, Mahrez & Sterling. ( we have 7)
 

That is 17 outfield player against our 22, he has been filling his bench with 18yr old kids; Palmer, Kayky & Mbetu. The key to his success is his ability to play 8 of his mid/FW interchangeably in his forward line.

Personally feel we need to recruit better using data, and stop chasing after the next big thing or big signings in the market. City are renowned for that and Liverpool to an extent, though you could argue Liverpool stole City’s data. Most of the signings Pep has made are not your standout big names in the market. He is just better than everyone else in developing them. 

Quality over quantity  .

We have a mediocre squad,I wouldn’t cry if I never saw CHO ,Ziyech, Pulisic, Werner, Barkley, Loftus Cheek and Alonso again,Dave is to old,our best defender is 37,our super hero Kante is continually breaking down,it really doesn't look good,we'll that's my opinion anyway.

1 hour ago, abramovich said:

Pep is a great manager, no doubt about it. He has his own vision and in terms of consistency his City side has been brilliant domestically over the years, which is no small feat, given how tough and competitive the EPL is.

Having said that, the criticism will always be there. Even at City he inherited a core of top talent (David Silva, Yaya Toure, Kompany, Aguero, KDB, Sterling, Fernandinho) and then proceded to spend a fortune on top of it. He's never been in a situation where he either didn't have the best (by far) team in the league (Barca, Bayern) or the richest (City). Most managers never have that luxury. but that doesn't change the fact that he's very good at his job.

Barca finished comfortably behind Villareal the season before he took over. The idea he had an oven ready set up just isn't true.

The only real bit of "luck" he got was getting the Barca job so early but even with that eventually you have to prove yourself good enough, as Lampard, Pirlo and OGS shown club legend tax only goes so far. He's earned his pick of jobs by creating the best club side of all time.

If it came down to it would he have been able to make a success of a "proper challenge"? well it depends what people regard as success for him. If it's get Sunderland up from league one to what City are doing then yes he will almost defiently "fail", but could he have got a smaller club competing well the way Sarri and Tuchel did at Empoli and Mainz respectively? Yes I'm fairly certain he could.

Edited December 30, 20214 yr by Argo

4 hours ago, dkw said:

Letting Gallagher, Gilmour and Broja go on loan and alsi selling Abraham were massive mistakes going into a season where it was obvious fitness and injuries would have a big impact. We were left with one striker in the entire squad, no cover for Kante's energy and effort and totally reliant on one way of playing. That way has been found out, even before covid fixture build up and fatigue kicked in. Our attack Is non existent, it's basically been reliant on Mount doing something. 

Totally agree about the loanees. In a regular season we might have got away with this. But knowing we have the club world cup, AFCON, not to mention covid, we took an unnecessary risk loaning out so many players that were ready to step up.  Once the decision was made to sell Tammy, it should have been a no-brainer to keep Broja. Even though he has thrived at Saints he has still had to start from the bench most of the time with others ahead of him. He definitely would have had plenty of opportunities here. Of the 2 midfielders we maybe could have loaned one out, and kept the other. We had seen evidence last season of Kante's increasing injury issues and I am sure somebody at the club knew that Jorginho was already having back pain issues. That alone should have been a red flag. Instead we put all our confidence in a loanee from another league who looks to be a shadow of the player he once was.

The squad in not the problem for me nor is Tuchel. We have one of the most exciting squads. Ton of Chelsea-made super-talented youth, couple of world-beaters and not many fringe type of players. 

We can challenge City and Liverpool with this setup and to be Fair we are doing it right now. 

The injury-crisis is real. It is well on and with James out as well we look light as ever. 

I challenge Pep to remove couple of his main players and still bang in goals this rate. 

The main difference between our side and Pep's is all of them are 25-30yr old. We have 21-24yr olds as our main players. 

I really hope we get a break with the injuries and have a chance to rest players. 

5 hours ago, abramovich said:

I think I mentioned before, but while our attackers' lack of cutting edge in front of goal is well documented and has been discussed here at length, this current squad also severely lacking attacking threat from central midfield. Kante can score on occasion, but that isn't really his best attribute, as for Kovacic and Jorginho (not counting penaties) they are neither creators nor scorers. Loftus-Cheek for all CFC fans' gushing about his elegant touch contributes next to nothing in that department, and Saul is a bust. I long for the days of Lamps or Cesc when we at least had somebody in that position who could create or score consistently.

In the recent years the modern game really doesn't have a Cesc Fabregas. Can't find a big team that has a player like that nowadays.

It's all about having the type of Casemiro/Fabinho or Jorginho/Rodri or a versatile player like Tolisso/Kimmich. It's not like Bayern, Liverpool, Real Madrid and Man City are expecting a lot of goals from their DMs, Kroos and Modric score 4-5 goals in a whole season and everyone is mindblown... Rodri played way more than Kovacic but Kovacic has 5 assists this season so this view how we suffer in goals because of our deep midfield doesn't hold water, most chances are wasted from the players up top, Jorginho has only 1 assist because CHO and James are wasteful, not because he can't play the final ball.

Other than that, Mount is like a mini version of Lampard so when talking about the central midfielders we do have a player that is having some end product, this is why Man City counts on De Bruyne and why we bought Havertz to accompany Mount with creativity and end product.

14 minutes ago, Argo said:

Barca finished comfortably behind Villareal the season before he took over. The idea he had an oven ready set up just isn't true.

The only real bit of "luck" he got was getting the Barca job so early but even with that eventually you have to prove yourself good enough, as Lampard, Pirlo and OGS shown club legend tax only goes so far. He's earned his pick of jobs by creating the best club side of all time.

If it came down to it would he have been able to make a success of a "proper challenge"? well it depends what people regard as success for him. If it's get Sunderland up from league one to what City are doing then yes he will almost defiently "fail", but could he have got a smaller club competing well the way Sarri and Tuchel did at Empoli and Mainz respectively? Yes I'm fairly certain he could.

I doubt it. He needs world class squads in order for his style to work. He was at the right place at the right time when he took over Barcelona, they were already champions of Europe before he got to that position and suddenly he had on his disposal the best Spanish generation in their history entering their prime years. As it stands he never managed to repeat what he accomplished there in Barcelona, let's not forget that when he left he took over arguably the best squad in whole Europe, Bayern.

And then he spent so much money in Man City as well, Roman spent over 2 billion since 2003 but Pep spent 1 billion since 2016. He was pretty average when he started coaching in Mexico prior to taking over Barcelona so I doubt that the heavy technical and possession-based football would work if he were to be in charge of a smaller team. That doesn't take away that he's one of the best managers but I'm saying that he needs certain factors to go his way.

All the pundits in the early weeks of the season going on about how we were favourites because of our defence and our squad depth, made me laugh. We were never going to sustain a title challenge. As soon as our defence started leaking goals, we were reliant on our attack to win us the games, which we rarely seem capable of doing, regardless of which front players he picks. And this great depth they all talked about.. it's players like Barkley, Saul, Sarr, an inexperienced Chalobah, Hudson-Odoi, and players like Ziyech, Werner, Pulisic, etc... who have been a big disappointment.

3rd is the best we can hope for, but with all the injuries we've been having lately, that seems unlikely now in the long run.

Let's look who we have left and what their situations are shall we?

 

Mendy (after Sunday away till mid Feb or later with ACoN)

Kepa

Marcus B

 

Chalobah

Rudiger

Christensen (back injury, not sure on return)

Silva (muscle injury, return unknown)

Sarr

 

Dave

Alonso

Chilwell (out for season)

James (out 3 months)

Simons 

 

Kante (chronic knee issues, needs to be managed)

Kovacic (not match fit after covid and hammy)

Jorginho (knackered and persistent back issue)

RLC (unknown injury, no return yet)

Saul

Barkley

 

Mount

CHO (recently back from Covid)

Werner (out with covid)

Havertz (recently returned from covid)

Lukaku (not match fit, ankle and covid recovery)

Pulisic (out most of the season, needs match sharpness)

Zyiech

Vale

Jude SB

 

Plus other youth players. That is a lot of problems. 

So out of that lot our most fit options in the current system would be:

 

Mendy

 

Rudiger

Chalobah

Sarr

 

Dave

Barkley 

Saul

Alonso

 

Ziyech

Vale

Mount

Be lucky to finish top half, that team.

8 minutes ago, Zeta said:

Be lucky to finish top half, that team.

Aye it would. Now I did not mean that to be our first 11 for the rest of the season, hopefully we would recover several of the injured and get going again. 

More meant several need a rest to hopefully avoid injury otherwise they may join James on missing months rather than sitting out a few games.

Also I am hearing we can recall Ian Maatsen if we so chose to do so but have to do it early in Jan.

Anyone watch our youth sides to suggest any players that could step up and help?

We saw Vale, Jude SB and Simons. Joe about Mbuyamba, Webster, Rankin etc?

Edited December 30, 20214 yr by axman2526

16 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Aye it would. Now I did not mean that to be our first 11 for the rest of the season, hopefully we would recover several of the injured and get going again. 

More meant several need a rest to hopefully avoid injury otherwise they may join James on missing months rather than sitting out a few games.

Also I am hearing we can recall Ian Maatsen if we so chose to do so but have to do it early in Jan.

Anyone watch our youth sides to suggest any players that could step up and help?

We saw Vale, Jude SB and Simons. Joe about Mbuyamba, Webster, Rankin etc?

With injuries/covid our biggest immediate issues seem to be in Defense and Midfield. We should get some more attacking options very soon as the outstanding players return from covid absenses. Looking at our midfield we will be reliant on 2 out of the 3 of Jorginho/Kante/Kova being regularly available to get through this season. Longer term we already have the likes of Gallagher and Gilmour that could be integrated next season. 

Defense though, while we have some injuries at present, what we are looking at now is a vision of next season if the players out of contract leave. What we have left is not going to be strong enough and we will have to sign at least 2 more I think. That recruitment should be starting in the January window given the injury issues, or this season could end up being a write off.

2 hours ago, Zeta said:

All the pundits in the early weeks of the season going on about how we were favourites because of our defence and our squad depth, made me laugh. We were never going to sustain a title challenge. As soon as our defence started leaking goals, we were reliant on our attack to win us the games, which we rarely seem capable of doing, regardless of which front players he picks. And this great depth they all talked about.. it's players like Barkley, Saul, Sarr, an inexperienced Chalobah, Hudson-Odoi, and players like Ziyech, Werner, Pulisic, etc... who have been a big disappointment.

3rd is the best we can hope for, but with all the injuries we've been having lately, that seems unlikely now in the long run.

With a close to fully fit squad I feel we absolutely could have. It's easy to forget in the middle of this rut but we looked sensational against Leicester, Juve and even Burnley despite drawing. But yes the depth of the squad is highly overrated, we can lose 1 or 2 without much drama (ala Pulisic and Ziyech coming in for Kai and Mount against Juve) but after that it becomes a problem.

That said we would still even now be in with a shot if it wasn't for Pep and City being able to chalk off 10 in a row in their sleep, we had a similar run of frustrating draws in Carlo's double season at the exact same time of the year.

4 minutes ago, forbzy said:

With injuries/covid our biggest immediate issues seem to be in Defense and Midfield. We should get some more attacking options very soon as the outstanding players return from covid absenses. Looking at our midfield we will be reliant on 2 out of the 3 of Jorginho/Kante/Kova being regularly available to get through this season. Longer term we already have the likes of Gallagher and Gilmour that could be integrated next season. 

Defense though, while we have some injuries at present, what we are looking at now is a vision of next season if the players out of contract leave. What we have left is not going to be strong enough and we will have to sign at least 2 more I think. That recruitment should be starting in the January window given the injury issues, or this season could end up being a write off.

Hey now you I have competition from @Zeta already for most negative miserable sod title already don't you join in too lol

 

Yes we need new defenders in. Have high hopes for Levi Colwill but we will need more than just him as Toni is a done deal to Real apparently and Dave and AC have agreed terms in principal with Barca.

Well, as of tomorrow,. Rudiger, Azpilicueta and Christensen will all be signing their contracts elsewhere, presumably. That's 3 of our defence gone, with no money coming in for any of them. Shambles.

26 minutes ago, Zeta said:

Well, as of tomorrow,. Rudiger, Azpilicueta and Christensen will all be signing their contracts elsewhere, presumably. That's 3 of our defence gone, with no money coming in for any of them. Shambles.

Azpi has been a great servant but I think we should allow him to move at the end of this season. The other 2 should never have been allowed to reach this stage on their contracts, and that is why they can hold us to ransom. We left it way too late to renegotiate and unfortunately it is pretty inevitable that they will leave now. will be particularly sad to see Rudi go. He always brings great energy to the team and has become one of the fan favourites. Christensen has never really managed to establish himself as a first choice, despite a decent run towards the end of last season. 

Still as you said that leaves a big gap in our defense and we will need to do some serious recruiting before next season.

Our record when Chalobah starts this season is played 15 won 10 drawn 5 lost 0, scored 35 and conceded just 7, and he wasn't even in the frame last year !

We will cope just fine if we lose all 3 of Rudiger, Christensen and Azpi at the end of their contracts. Azpi would be the biggest loss, due to his professionalism, versatility, and standing at the club. 

But bring in that Hungarian guy Szalai for £20M, alongside Silva, Chalobah, Colwill, one of Ampadu/Sarr, and £60M Kounde as the icing on the cake, and that might actually be a stronger unit - able to play as a back 3 or a back 4 ... 

Onwards and upwards ... 

Ampadu/Sarr? They are both awful.

Chaloabh has had a good start, but he's inexperienced and does make mistakes.

Silva is nearly 40.

Colwill has 1 season in the championship.

It's hardly enough to inspire any confidence.

Edited December 31, 20214 yr by Zeta

8 minutes ago, Zeta said:

Ampadu/Sarr? They are both awful.

Chaloabh has had a good start, but he's inexperienced and does make mistakes.

Silva is nearly 40.

Colwill has 1 season in the championship.

It's hardly enough to inspire any confidence.

Understand that, however James also had one season in the Championship as a midfielder. 

I called Mount, James and Chalobah being big players for us before they kicked a ball for us. If give a chance I put forward Colwill to do the same.

5 minutes ago, Zeta said:

Ampadu/Sarr? They are both awful.

Chaloabh has had a good start, but he's inexperienced and does make mistakes.

Silva is nearly 40.

Colwill has 1 season in the championship.

It's hardly enough to inspire any confidence.

Ampadu/Sarr are effectively 5th choice squad make weights. You're not going to get someone top drawer to fill that role !

Chalobah is doing fine. He is no more error prone than Rudiger and Christensen ... 

Silva is ageless, as we have seen this season. 

Colwill is going to be great if he gets a chance, but agree he would ideally have another year on loan. 

You didn't mention Kounde or Szalai, who both look decent enough to me to replace Rudiger and Christensen, and would cost much less on wages to boot.

 

Is funny how a year changes people's views.

How many of us stuck up for Rudiger and AC a year ago? Compared to the amount of us who said Rudiger should be sold in January 2020 as he was not good enough and AC was not the same after Barca with Conte and has a weak mentality?

Now most people are losing their minds over them leaving. Why? Because TT has improved them AND used a system that covers their flaws. 

Toni is all based on raw physicality. If his legs go he won't be a top level defender anymore. He is not JT or Silva, and with his ACL history who knows when he could drop down a level, then you are stuck with him on 200k a week for 5 years. At the moment, in this system, he is an excellent defender but not a 200k a week one imo. That level of money is JT or Silva money. 

AC may go on to be a really fine defender at Barca, but he has always had attitude issues imo and if he wants to go then it does not bother me at all.

Dave has earned the right to go or stay. If he wants to go fair enough.

Is up to the club to buy quality replacements to go along with Trev and Colwill. 2 long term prospects, 2 leaders.

Cole, JT, Cahill, Brana, all fantastic leaders. We need leaders there. Toni is one, but he has decided he wants to leave and 140k is not enough to stay, fair enough. AC is not one. 

Hopefully we buy quality that becomes elite like Brana and Gary.

On 29/12/2021 at 23:24, loz said:

For me one of the problems we have is inflated expectations purely because of the last 15 years or so. Some are already questioning Tuchel despite his record since taking over being comparable with Guardiola who has had seasons to build a squad with more money than the makers of the Pfizer vaccine.

If we are expecting to win the league or at least compete for it  then let's be honest about the calibre of players Tuchel has at his disposal to compete with City (who are going to win it by at least 12 points).

Which of our current squad are players you'd categorise as title winning potential, top four competitors, perennial top 6 and 'really, maybe let them go now'. Of course we will not agree on who falls in which category but we can surely all agree that not enough fall in the title winning potential category. By that I don't mean they are necessarily world class. More that they are either top drawer or of a sufficient quality to deliver at a level you need regularly whilst supported by other quality players. Think of the likes of Gary and Phil Neville at United. Never world class but they won regular titles by being reliable and consistent.

For me

Title Winning Potential

Kante, Silva, Rudiger, Lukaku, Mendy

Top Four

James,  Mount, Kepa, Azpilicueta, Chilwell

Perennial top 6
Jorginho, Kovacic, Havertz, Werner, Christensen, Chalobah

Let Them Go
Odoi, Pulisic, Alonso, Ziyech, Barkley, Cheek

This doesn't mean we should be looking to ship 10 or 11 players in one go as that isn't viable. It just illustrates, for me, how far we are from being a genuine threat to City at the moment and also how daft it is to think Tuchel should be on a sticky wicket.

Tricky isn't it, both Kante and Silva are at the twilight of their careers. Otherwise would include in title winning potential just don't think they will be fit enough to start many games next season.

Title winning potential

Mendy

Top Four 

James, Chilwell, Havertz, Christensen, Chalobah, Lukaku, Mount, Jorginho, kovacic

Top 6 

Azpi, Werner, Pulisic, Ziyech, Odoi. 

Let go/ Move on

All those under top 6 and also RLC and Barkley. Yet remember  we need to respect their contracts.

Development Squad and Loanees

Gallager and Broja look like aspiring to top 4 for me.

Not sure about others.

Also happy to increase Lukaku if he continues to score.  Letting go and moving on necessitates replacing and that is where profit and loss comes into effect.

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, strider6004 said:

Tricky isn't it, both Kante and Silva are at the twilight of their careers. Otherwise would include in title winning potential just don't think they will be fit enough to start many games next season.

Title winning potential

Mendy

Top Four 

James, Chilwell, Havertz, Christensen, Chalobah, Lukaku, Mount, Jorginho, kovacic

Top 6 

Azpi, Werner, Pulisic, Ziyech, Odoi. 

Let go/ Move on

All those under top 6 and also RLC and Barkley. Yet remember  we need to respect their contracts.

Development Squad and Loanees

Gallager and Broja look like aspiring to top 4 for me.

Not sure about others.

Also happy to increase Lukaku if he continues to score.  Letting go and moving on necessitates replacing and that is where profit and loss comes into effect.

 

 

 

 

A better way to do this is who would you switch from your direct competitors.. 

Against City - For me a definite would be -  Diaz, Laporte, KDB, Bernardo Silva, Sterling others are comparable on the other hand i think if city were to pick apart from kante and none of our other players are definite in.. that for me is a big gap.

Against Pool - for me a definite would be - VVD, Salah, Mane to us while Kante, to them and hence we are closer to them

Against Utd - i would probably take Pogba on the other hand they would happily upgrade to Reece, Chilwell, Kante and hence we are slightly ahead. 

Hence our current position in the league seems just about right.