1 hour ago, Vagabond said:

Ah yes, I see it now. So we couldn't have waited for the summer window and gotten him or a similar player much cheaper, because he wouldn't have gotten us all those wins in the meantime.

You think he's joining us in summer after the last 4 months? We're lucky he even came in January.

1 hour ago, OriginalS said:

I don't think he's been that creative actually. Had a couple of blinders like the one assist at West Ham but otherwise he's not been that creative with his passing I believe.

And perhaps another thing to consider is that he's rubbish defensively. If his middle name was Jorginh he'd probably be slaughtered on here for his defensive awareness and positioning.

More progressive passers than anyone else. Means he can get the ball into the wingers or Mount between the lines much faster and get the ball up the pitch. 

He's not rubbish defensively, we didn't sign him as a DM though. Go back to the start of this thread, i said he'll need a DM next to him to get the best from him. He's the best of the best at progressing the ball up the pitch quickly, which is what we've had problems with since J5 days when we used to piss about with it and let teams get back into shape. In all my years of watching football i've never seen a bigger upgrade than going from Jorginho to Enzo, blows my mind people are moaning about him of all people.

29 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

More progressive passers than anyone else. Means he can get the ball into the wingers or Mount between the lines much faster and get the ball up the pitch. 

He's not rubbish defensively, we didn't sign him as a DM though. Go back to the start of this thread, i said he'll need a DM next to him to get the best from him. He's the best of the best at progressing the ball up the pitch quickly, which is what we've had problems with since J5 days when we used to piss about with it and let teams get back into shape. In all my years of watching football i've never seen a bigger upgrade than going from Jorginho to Enzo, blows my mind people are moaning about him of all people.

Pretty sure progressive passing was never the benchmark for you mate. At least until now it was supposedly all about assists and/or goals and he's got zero goals and two assists in 15. It's not that great is it.

2 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

He was £105m and he's been worth every penny, he's just feeding absolute dross at the moment

I'm not sure he is worth every penny of £105m on showings to date.

Don't get me wrong, I like him and he is a massive upgrade on Jorginho and is way down the list of players to moan about when we have spunked what we have on the likes of Lukaku, Sterling and Cuccurella. But he has gone a little off the boil and currently doesn't look like a £100m+ player, but then not many players do and as you say, he has a lot of dross playing with him at present, which will hopefully change next season.

10 minutes ago, OriginalS said:

Pretty sure progressive passing was never the benchmark for you mate. At least until now it was supposedly all about assists and/or goals and he's got zero goals and two assists in 15. It's not that great is it.

My issue for years is how slow we were in build up. Enzo picks the ball up and straight away looks forward for a pass. No more recycling possession from defence to deep midfielder over and over. In 11 Prem games he's managed 40% of the amount of assists Jorginho managed in 151 games. 

2 hours ago, Vagabond said:

Ah yes, I see it now. So we couldn't have waited for the summer window and gotten him or a similar player much cheaper, because he wouldn't have gotten us all those wins in the meantime.

We'd have had almost every club in Europe competing with us in the summer.

2 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

You think he's joining us in summer after the last 4 months? We're lucky he even came in January.

How are we lucky? We paid an absurd fee and our results didn't improve in the slightest. We could've just as well stuck with Jorgi (since our bad season was very obviously not down to him) and looked for another player that fits our profile in summer instead of overpaying for a Argentinian directly after winning the WC. I assume Boehly in his arrogance wanted to send a message though and that's why were so "lucky".

57 minutes ago, Argo said:

We'd have had almost every club in Europe competing with us in the summer.

And any club that would've paid 120M for him would have been stupid just like we are now and just like we were when competing with Arse over Mudryk.

2 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

How are we lucky? We paid an absurd fee and our results didn't improve in the slightest. We could've just as well stuck with Jorgi (since our bad season was very obviously not down to him) and looked for another player that fits our profile in summer instead of overpaying for a Argentinian directly after winning the WC. I assume Boehly in his arrogance wanted to send a message though and that's why were so "lucky".

And any club that would've paid 120M for him would have been stupid just like we are now and just like we were when competing with Arse over Mudryk.

Are you honestly trying to say Enzo isn't a huge upgrade on Jorginho? Surely f**king not hahahaha someone tell me i'm reading this wrong.

Our issues run a LOT deeper than Enzo currently (no striker, no DM, sh*te keeper), he's one of the few signings that is working for us and more often than not is the best player on the pitch for us. 

Wow, some people really go out of their way to critizise the very few good things that happened to Chelsea in a pretty long time. What do you expect from a player who is forced to play as DM and whose teammates never show up for any decent link-up plays? 120M, 50M it doesn't matter, the bigger issue is that this team as a whole doesn't produce any results.

Edited April 19, 20233 yr by Upb78

Sounds like an Arsenal fan trying to justify Jorginho is as good as Enzo. 

Yes, I know. We got rid of the scourge that was Jorginho and got the world beater that is Enzo. So how did our results improve since then?

I agree with you about the striker and keeper. The sad thing is we didn't have a good striker for a long time, but managed to spend 600M just last year without even coming close to fixing that issue, because Auba is not it and Fofana isn't either apparently. So instead of focusing our efforts on the issues you recognized we've spent big a CM that we're playing in defensive midfield behind Kante and an unproven winger from Ukraine while simultaneously making it worse by selling our only defensive midfielder (a Euro and CL winner btw). That's not lucky, it's stupid.

@Upb78 & @Sconnie Blue

Shouldn't you two be sh*tting on Kova somewhere?

40 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

How are we lucky? We paid an absurd fee and our results didn't improve in the slightest. We could've just as well stuck with Jorgi (since our bad season was very obviously not down to him) and looked for another player that fits our profile in summer instead of overpaying for a Argentinian directly after winning the WC. I assume Boehly in his arrogance wanted to send a message though and that's why were so "lucky".

And any club that would've paid 120M for him would have been stupid just like we are now and just like we were when competing with Arse over Mudryk.

Players of his profile aren't exactly growing on trees, even less so for us, the last player of his type of profile that was actually willing to arrive here was Modric 12 years ago.

And yes I think he's been great despite the results and he's a heavy upgrade on Jorginho (who I liked and defended a lot as any regular on his thread would confirm). If anything the way he's performing despite everything else going on makes me even more convinced by him than I already was.

https://imgur.io/7hueznd

11 long passes completed per 90 is prime Pirlo level good. He's in the top end percentile the vast majority of the relevant stats for his position.

Yes maybe we should have had the foresight to get him from River (something we're hopefully learning from given our recent shopping on that continent) but what's done is done.

11 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

@Upb78 & @Sconnie Blue

Shouldn't you two be sh*tting on Kova somewhere?

Shouldn't you?

Instead of criticizing a player who can hardly make a f**king pass you choose to waste your time criticizing a player who has some of the best passing metrics in the league despite being here since January. 

1 minute ago, Argo said:

Players of his profile aren't exactly growing on trees, even less so for us, the last player of his type of profile that was actually willing to arrive here was Modric 12 years ago.

And yes I think he's been great despite the results and he's a heavy upgrade on Jorginho (who I liked and defended a lot as any regular on his thread would confirm). If anything the way he's performing despite everything else going on makes me even more convinced by him than I already was.

https://imgur.io/7hueznd

11 long passes completed per 90 is prime Pirlo level good. He's in the top end percentile the vast majority of the relevant stats for his position.

Yes maybe we should have had the foresight to get him from River (something we're hopefully learning from given our recent shopping on that continent) but what's done is done.

The point is that we are spending big and overpaying for players that we are using in the "wrong" position (since that is an excuse brought up for Enzo now as well, since otherwise he would of course be much better) while selling players that would actually cover that exact position and while ignoring the glaring issues in our squad and creating new ones. Enzo is what I would consider a luxury signing to make our squad even stronger IF we were solid on all the other positions. Plus, for him to be worth that much he just isn't good enough defensively at the moment, especially if you want to play him as DM. Just focus on him and what he does in the defensive phase for an entire match and you'll see what I mean.

2 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Shouldn't you?

Instead of criticizing a player who can hardly make a f**king pass you choose to waste your time criticizing a player who has some of the best passing metrics in the league despite being here since January. 

Funny, since according to Sofascore.com Kova had a 95% pass accuracy (81/85) passes against Madrid yesterday. You're full of it, mate.

20 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

Funny, since according to Sofascore.com Kova had a 95% pass accuracy (81/85) passes against Madrid yesterday. You're full of it, mate.

Willing to wager which one is Enzo and which one is Kova?

37 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

Funny, since according to Sofascore.com Kova had a 95% pass accuracy (81/85) passes against Madrid yesterday. You're full of it, mate.

It must be the first game Kovacic has had those % of accuracy, but most of his passes are usually (unlike Enzo) to the sides or backwards so it doesn't matter. Regardless, i think Kovacic played a decent game yesterday.

Edited April 19, 20233 yr by Upb78

I don't understand how can anyone not see what a player Enzo is, but to compare him to Jorginho is just unbelievable. Never thought I'd read something like that 

9 minutes ago, RMH said:

I don't understand how can anyone not see what a player Enzo is, but to compare him to Jorginho is just unbelievable. Never thought I'd read something like that 

Only nailed on spots from where I’m standing are Silva ( whose marching on a bit) Enzo, James, Chilwell and Kante

@Sconnie Blue Talk about moving the goalpost. First you claim Kova can hardly make a pass and after you get proven wrong by a quick google search and an easy to find statistic you change the topic all of a sudden.
Also, since I assume the left one is Enzo, when exactly has he scored a goal and made 5 assists? Again you prove that you're full of sh*te.

@Upb78 I know I know, stats only matter when they don't prove how clueless you are.

4 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

@Sconnie Blue Talk about moving the goalpost. First you claim Kova can hardly make a pass and after you get proven wrong by a quick google search and an easy to find statistic you change the topic all of a sudden.
Also, since I assume the left one is Enzo, when exactly has he scored a goal and made 5 assists? Again you prove that you're full of sh*te.

@Upb78 I know I know, stats only matter when they don't prove how clueless you are.

I assumed you wanted context with my argument on why I think Kovacic is a poor passer of the ball. Being a safe passer does not mean you are a great one. 3 yard passes don't do anyone any favors. 

The data I provided (2022/2023 season total) shows just how much more adventurous and progressive Enzo is as a passer compared to Kovacic, which again baffles me why you are wasting your time criticizing Enzo when Kovacic is a significantly inferior footballer in that regard. 

3 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I assumed you wanted context with my argument on why I think Kovacic is a poor passer of the ball. Being a safe passer does not mean you are a great one. 3 yard passes don't do anyone any favors. 

The data I provided (2022/2023 season total) shows just how much more adventurous and progressive Enzo is as a passer compared to Kovacic, which again baffles me why you are wasting your time criticizing Enzo when Kovacic is a significantly inferior footballer in that regard. 

Interesting, first I should sh*t on one of our players because you aptly analysed how apparently he can hardly make A pass and I'm supposedly an Arse fan, but when you get proven wrong by a 2 minute google search you're all about context, progression and long passes. Even more interesting that 3 out of 4 long passes from Kova reached their target yesterday and he has 3 key passes to his name too (same source as before), yet if I check the matchday thread I will probably read from how how sh*te he was. Am I wrong?

You mean most of the data you provided is from another club in a much weaker league. Hence the goal and 5 assists. Got it. It doesn't really matter though, since my point went entirely over your head anyways. I wasn't really even criticising Enzo, but just that we paid too much for him, which is entirely on Boehly.

1 hour ago, Vagabond said:

@Sconnie Blue Talk about moving the goalpost. First you claim Kova can hardly make a pass and after you get proven wrong by a quick google search and an easy to find statistic you change the topic all of a sudden.
Also, since I assume the left one is Enzo, when exactly has he scored a goal and made 5 assists? Again you prove that you're full of sh*te.

@Upb78 I know I know, stats only matter when they don't prove how clueless you are.

No, stats matter to prove how clueless you are.

1 minute ago, Vagabond said:

Interesting, first I should sh*t on one of our players because you aptly analysed how apparently he can hardly make A pass and I'm supposedly an Arse fan, but when you get proven wrong by a 2 minute google search you're all about context, progression and long passes. Even more interesting that 3 out of 4 long passes from Kova reached their target yesterday and he has 3 key passes to his name too (same source as before), yet if I check the matchday thread I will probably read from how how sh*te he was. Am I wrong?

You mean most of the data you provided is from another club in a much weaker league. Hence the goal and 5 assists. Got it. It doesn't really matter though, since my point went entirely over your head anyways. I wasn't really even criticising Enzo, but just that we paid too much for him, which is entirely on Boehly.

Now you are just being pedantic. I don't rate Kovacic as a passer. If you've watched Kovacic play regularly and come to the conclusion he's a good passer on the ball, that's a you problem.  You are banging about pass accuracy and completion yet I've shown you the statistics of how limited his progressive passing game is on a whole. Enzo has a far superior expansive passing game than both Kovacic and Jorginho combined so the notion we are no better than with Jorginho is just simply false and hence why you are being attacked in this thread. 

I like utilizing a similar sample size when I do a comparison (hence using his Benfica matches) and even with Enzo's limited time in the Premier League he dwarfs Kovacic. 

Kovacic also doesn't even rank in the Top 10 for Chelsea in shots, key passes, dribbles and pass success rate so it is no surprise that he is rated so poorly by WhoScored.

https://www.footballfancast.com/chelsea-graham-potter-mateo-kovacic-stamford-bridge-blues/