15 hours ago, Vagabond said:

Nice that you're using Enzos numbers from Benfica, the leader in Primeira Liga. Since we've arrived at irrelevant stats, could you look up the stats for Jorgi at Napoli or Mudryk at Shakthar?

You do realise playing for the best team in the league his defensive stats should be lower as they're controlling games.? The fact he's still above Jorginho is even funnier and makes your 'worse defensively' claim even more laughabke. 

12 hours ago, Ajbod said:

Fabragas was used as a quarterback type, with Matic as his linebacker.

Cesc was never a defensive midfielder, that is how Enzo needs to be utilised.

I liked Fabregas. Brainy player. Interesting stat; however many years ago it was, his top running speed was the second slowest in The Premiership.

The only player more sloth like was Peter Crouch

 

1 hour ago, Fruit Bat said:

I liked Fabregas. Brainy player. Interesting stat; however many years ago it was, his top running speed was the second slowest in The Premiership.

The only player more sloth like was Peter Crouch

 

That doesn't surprise me. He was incredibly slow when he came back from Spain. I don't remember him being notably slow in his Arsenal years. He seemed to be a proper box-to-box midfielder.

With us, he was one of the most creative players the Prem has ever seen. A joy to watch (when you weren't cursing his inability to run).

3 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

You do realise playing for the best team in the league his defensive stats should be lower as they're controlling games.?

Not necessarily and you should know that. Intercepting a pass or tackling a player will be much MUCH easier in Portugal (not even a top5 league) than the PL, the huge disparity in quality being the obvious reason. I am really interested in seeing Enzos defensive stats at Chelsea though and would have no problem retracting my statement if you could provide those numbers.

But nevermind that. Let's just assume you're right and we can extrapolate his Benfica stats to the PL 1 to 1 (or even more, because it's harder to reach those numbers in the Portuguese league 😅). Is that increase plus the increase in his offensive output (2 assists over all his games here) worth 120million? Are we going to count his offensive output from his time in Portugal as well or are you going to claim those are inflated because Benfica are controlling games? Can't have it both ways.

20 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

Not necessarily and you should know that. Intercepting a pass or tackling a player will be much MUCH easier in Portugal (not even a top5 league) than the PL, the huge disparity in quality being the obvious reason. I am really interested in seeing Enzos defensive stats at Chelsea though and would have no problem retracting my statement if you could provide those numbers.

But nevermind that. Let's just assume you're right and we can extrapolate his Benfica stats to the PL 1 to 1 (or even more, because it's harder to reach those numbers in the Portuguese league 😅). Is that increase plus the increase in his offensive output (2 assists over all his games here) worth 120million? Are we going to count his offensive output from his time in Portugal as well or are you going to claim those are inflated because Benfica are controlling games? Can't have it both ways.

Huge disparity in the leagues? Benfica went as far as us in the CL and Sporting (4th in the league) knocked out Arsenal (1st in the almighty Prem) in European competition. 

https://www.premierleague.com/players/63741/Enzo-Fernández/stats

https://www.premierleague.com/players/5682/Jorginho/stats

Enzo 3 tackles per game, Jorginho 2.07 tackles per game. 

Enzo tackle success 67%, Jorginho 54% tackle success.

Enzo 82% successful 50/50's rate, Jorginho 45% successful 50/50's rate.

Enzo 45% aerial duels won, Jorginho 38% aerial duels won.

Jorginho 1.5 interceptions per game, Enzo 1.09 interceptions per game.

All this while Jorginho player for a much better Chelsea team, as you said that doesn't matter right?

As for attacking output:

Enzo averages 10 passes more per game than Jorginho, all the while with these being MUCH more progressive. Not just recycling back.

Enzo's averaging 7.5 long balls again, while Jorginho only managed 2.8 over his years in the league, meaning he takesless risky passes slowing play. 

To conclude, is he worth £105m (not sure why you keep quoting it in Euro's to look more)? I personally don't think any footballer is worth that much, Enzo's cost about the same as Grealish the market is what it is these days. Is that how much we had to pay to get him? Yes. Is Enzo a once a decade type of player that we had to get now or never? Yes. The last player like this we missed out on was Modric and he's had an alright career to date.

Who do we reckon he'd partner best with?

Kone, Ugarte, Rice, Thuram, or Lavia?

35 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Who do we reckon he'd partner best with?

Kone, Ugarte, Rice, Thuram, or Lavia?

Rice.

He might have had a lot more assists for us, if the attack could actually score. How many times did he set things up, for those muppets to pass it to the goalie, or put it in row Z.

1 hour ago, Ajbod said:

He might have had a lot more assists for us, if the attack could actually score. How many times did he set things up, for those muppets to pass it to the goalie, or put it in row Z.

"He's not Fabregas, sadly he's not."

No he's not, but he needs to be allowed to grow, he's not the finished article yet. Who knows just how far he will go, with the right manager, system and support.

On 21/04/2023 at 13:50, RIP Mourinho said:

Huge disparity in the leagues? Benfica went as far as us in the CL and Sporting (4th in the league) knocked out Arsenal (1st in the almighty Prem) in European competition. 

https://www.premierleague.com/players/63741/Enzo-Fernández/stats

https://www.premierleague.com/players/5682/Jorginho/stats

Enzo 3 tackles per game, Jorginho 2.07 tackles per game. 

Enzo tackle success 67%, Jorginho 54% tackle success.

Enzo 82% successful 50/50's rate, Jorginho 45% successful 50/50's rate.

Enzo 45% aerial duels won, Jorginho 38% aerial duels won.

Jorginho 1.5 interceptions per game, Enzo 1.09 interceptions per game.

All this while Jorginho player for a much better Chelsea team, as you said that doesn't matter right?

As for attacking output:

Enzo averages 10 passes more per game than Jorginho, all the while with these being MUCH more progressive. Not just recycling back.

Enzo's averaging 7.5 long balls again, while Jorginho only managed 2.8 over his years in the league, meaning he takesless risky passes slowing play. 

To conclude, is he worth £105m (not sure why you keep quoting it in Euro's to look more)? I personally don't think any footballer is worth that much, Enzo's cost about the same as Grealish the market is what it is these days. Is that how much we had to pay to get him? Yes. Is Enzo a once a decade type of player that we had to get now or never? Yes. The last player like this we missed out on was Modric and he's had an alright career to date.

It's not about how good Benfica and Sporting are but about how good the rest of their league is in comparison. In the PL any team can beat you with a bit of luck. I doubt the same is the case with Santa Clara in Portugal (had to look it up lol). Come on, this should be self evident, we shouldn't be discussing it.

Fair enough. I'll concede that Jorgi is not better defensively than Enzo, they're close with Enzo winning the comparison. Which is worrying. If we keep playing him as DM for whatever reason he is simply not worth it, even with how the market is today. I'd like to see him as CM for a few games, maybe then I can be convinced that he's the new Modric. Until then he's not a good transfer in my opinion and doesn't improve our squad in the right positions. Certainly not as bad as Kepa or Lukaku, but also not a Hazard by any stretch of the imagination. Also, I don't want to think about that c**t Graelish, please mention other players when you want to give an example for clubs paying too much from now on.

Tbh we're in a difficult position. Boehly wants to get rid of players to evade a transfer ban, but since we won't qualify for Europe top players won't exactly be lining up to come here. How will our midfield look without Mount and Kova, who probably won't sign new contracts with the conditions Boehly is offering? Relying on Gallagher and RLC to carry us together with Enzo won't work when Kante inevitably misses for half a season again. Do we need to pay another 100M for Rice to come? And that's just our midfield...😵. I'm telling you, this last transfer window will come back to bite us.

On 21/04/2023 at 06:24, Sconnie Blue said:

Who do we reckon he'd partner best with?

Kone, Ugarte, Rice, Thuram, or Lavia?

Trevor Chalobah.

On 21/04/2023 at 16:24, Sconnie Blue said:

Who do we reckon he'd partner best with?

Kone, Ugarte, Rice, Thuram, or Lavia?

Let's get them all and keep the most clean sheets ever.

7 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Trevor Chalobah.

He should be tried out at DM for the rest of the season.

Trev as proper, unapologetically defensive midfielder - with Enzo ahead and either mount or Connor next to him. (give kante the rest of the season off)

fofana up front, with mudryk and Madueke either side. Give them all a run and sod the results .

14 hours ago, Vagabond said:

It's not about how good Benfica and Sporting are but about how good the rest of their league is in comparison. In the PL any team can beat you with a bit of luck. I doubt the same is the case with Santa Clara in Portugal (had to look it up lol). Come on, this should be self evident, we shouldn't be discussing it.
 

This nonsense that the bottom teams do or can only beat the top teams in the PL is hilarious.

On 21/04/2023 at 13:24, Sconnie Blue said:

Who do we reckon he'd partner best with?

Kone, Ugarte, Rice, Thuram, or Lavia?

Lavia, Neves or Palinha

4 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

He should be tried out at DM for the rest of the season.

Trev as proper, unapologetically defensive midfielder - with Enzo ahead and either mount or Connor next to him. (give kante the rest of the season off)

fofana up front, with mudryk and Madueke either side. Give them all a run and sod the results .

Or maybe try James as DM and Trev as RWB

Just going to put some thoughts out there regarding Enzo. 
 

First a disclaimer. I’ve said elsewhere, club has looked so broken this season, that any talk about players is pretty much moot. Every single player has underperformed and judging any of them based on this season’s performance is a big mistake. I stand by that.

BUT.. 

I do sometimes wonder whether there might be a bit of groupthink regarding Enzo (being really good.) it’s almost as though folks can’t handle the idea of EVERYONE being terrible, so there have to be some players who “can hold their head high.” Enzo seems to get labelled in this way a lot, and on the days when he clearly hasn’t been good, fans are more forgiving of him than of other underperformers. 
 

What’s he actually shown? I don’t have a strong view and am ready to be persuaded he’s a great player.

But then you do have to factor in the price tag. That this is the player who breaks the PL transfer record seems nuts to me, and I’ll need a lot more convincing that he’s worth that money.

To live up to that price tag (I repeat - most expensive player ever) I’d expect something like a Kante merged with two Essiens on steroids… or some combo thereof. There are so many other ridiculously overvalued players and Enzo is by no means the most egregiously mispriced (before anyone mentions Maguire, Kepa… or many others). Still, at that price, did people not expect a bit more? 

7 minutes ago, Dean said:

Just going to put some thoughts out there regarding Enzo. 
 

First a disclaimer. I’ve said elsewhere, club has looked so broken this season, that any talk about players is pretty much moot. Every single player has underperformed and judging any of them based on this season’s performance is a big mistake. I stand by that.

BUT.. 

I do sometimes wonder whether there might be a bit of groupthink regarding Enzo (being really good.) it’s almost as though folks can’t handle the idea of EVERYONE being terrible, so there have to be some players who “can hold their head high.” Enzo seems to get labelled in this way a lot, and on the days when he clearly hasn’t been good, fans are more forgiving of him than of other underperformers. 
 

What’s he actually shown? I don’t have a strong view and am ready to be persuaded he’s a great player.

But then you do have to factor in the price tag. That this is the player who breaks the PL transfer record seems nuts to me, and I’ll need a lot more convincing that he’s worth that money.

To live up to that price tag (I repeat - most expensive player ever) I’d expect something like a Kante merged with two Essiens on steroids… or some combo thereof. There are so many other ridiculously overvalued players and Enzo is by no means the most egregiously mispriced (before anyone mentions Maguire, Kepa… or many others). Still, at that price, did people not expect a bit more? 

Bloke has been here since January and already has the joint most assists at the club in the league and the best passing metrics every match week.  Ignoring the statistics, he has a tremendous and very expansive passing range. He has a technical skill set that makes him valuable in every third of the pitch. He really is a player we are lucky to have and despite being managed by a manager who was out of his depth and a man pretending to be a manager, you can still see his quality and areas he can also improve on. 

Issue right now is that he is being asked to play Jorginho's role, when he actually benefits playing off of a #6 or defensive midfielder. Much like at Benfica and with Argentina when Parades comes on for De Paul and Enzo has more freedom. 

 

27 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Bloke has been here since January and already has the joint most assists at the club in the league and the best passing metrics every match week.  Ignoring the statistics, he has a tremendous and very expansive passing range. He has a technical skill set that makes him valuable in every third of the pitch. He really is a player we are lucky to have and despite being managed by a manager who was out of his depth and a man pretending to be a manager, you can still see his quality and areas he can also improve on. 

Issue right now is that he is being asked to play Jorginho's role, when he actually benefits playing off of a #6 or defensive midfielder. Much like at Benfica and with Argentina when Parades comes on for De Paul and Enzo has more freedom. 

 

Fair enough! But how many assists exactly / is it statistically meaningful?… an assist has to have this thing called a goal on the end of it, right? 😂 

48 minutes ago, Dean said:

Fair enough! But how many assists exactly / is it statistically meaningful?… an assist has to have this thing called a goal on the end of it, right? 😂 

It sounds good, but two is all it takes to head that particular metric for us this season in the PL LOL.

To put that in context, Newcastle's Schar got two assists in the first 9 minutes today 🙂 

He also averages 11 completed long passes a game.

That's prime Pirlo level good.

2 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

Or maybe try James as DM and Trev as RWB

Nope. James is one of the best RWB in the world - let me flourish in his position. Trev has far more experience as a dM. Put square pegs in square spaces.

Edited April 23, 20233 yr by nonotnowjim

He might only have 2 assists, but when the duffer who receives it, totally f.... it up, how can he get more. How many went begging?

Never understood this Chalobah as a DM argument. 
 

The tactical discipline, technical ability  and awareness needs to be at a top level to play in this role. Chalobah playing DM at a bottom half club in France doesn’t justify him being good enough to play. Completely different ball game being a successful DM in the Prem, let alone at a top club.