9 minutes ago, El regreso said:

Watch the outrage when club announces any initiative to combat racism as “woke nonsense”

Why would anyone be against that? The kick it out campaign has never caused outrage. 

13 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

Why is he an outlier though? Once again that's your opinion. Life isn't all black and white.

Every anti racist organisation that has weighed in has called it racist. The overwhelming majority of media is calling it racist.  Players and former players have called it out as racist. Fans of colour are calling it out as racist. The onus is on you to prove that he is not an outlier. The fact is that he is massively outnumbered and if you are going to deny this obvious reality then the burden of proof is on you. 

13 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

The lyrics aren't putting down any person of colour, expressing any hatred towards them, downplaying their achievements etc. If anything its highlighting the fact that its African ancestry that has won the World Cup and Euro's, is this not something to be proud of?

This has been explained numerous times, but again, the lyrics are explicit in denying that those players are genuinely French. 

13 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

Racism is: a belief that racial differences produce the inherent superiority of a particular race.

What is your source for this? It is a single line of text. It isn't untrue, but it is by no means a comprehensive definition. 

13 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

The song is highlighting their superiority from the African ancestry.

So even by your logic, it is racist. 

Edited July 19, 20241 yr by g3.7

1 hour ago, g3.7 said:

1) Black players in our squad have been racially abused by another one of our players. 

2) By extension all black French people have been abused in the song when you consider it's implications.

3) As we speak, Wesley Fofana, our player, is being called a monkey and being told to go back to Africa in response to his public opposition to the song. 

4) A number of posters have patiently (i no longer qualify for patient) explained to those who do not understand why the song is racist. This is not a point for debate.

5) The time for saying it isn't racist because there isn't a specific racist term in the song is over. We have explained it contains racist sentiment.

6) I am saying plainly that the song was racist and no effort to minimise, deflect, distort, or deny is going to stop that

7) support our black players and considerations of what can be done to sanction and) if possible) rehabilitate fernandez. 

😎 Instead, so furious has been the pushback and denial to this, I have to conclude that certain members of this forum hold racist ideas. 

 

1) No they have not.

2) No they have not.

3) That is disgusting, and those abusing him need to face consequences. But it is a seperate issue, and isnt linked to Enzo.

4) Equally, a number of posters have patiently explained to you and others that the song, in itself, is not racist. It is however Xenophobic. This is not a point for debate.

5) No - people deserve the right to a fair trial - not to be hounded due to public (incorrect) opinion. As I have said multiple times, it makes no reference to skin colour, race or ethnicity - and therefore - it is perfectly justified for people to debate. Words on there own are not racist. It is always intent and context that makes something racist.

6) I am saying that it is not racist, but it is xenophobic and ill judged, and no effort to minimise, deflect, distort, or deny is going to stop that

7) any of our players who need support should be supported if they feel that they need it. I would expect that as a caring employer. Enzo has no need to be rehabilitated unless he admits that he was singing the song as a racist intent.

8. You are so self righteous that you think that anyone who doesnt agree with your position is racist.....that is tragic.

 

7 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

Every anti racist organisation that has weighed in has called it racist.

Obviously, its their job. 

 

9 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

The overwhelming majority of media is calling it racist. 

Obviously, drama sells. 

9 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

 Players and former players have called it out as racist. 

Plenty have said the opposite.

10 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

 Fans of colour are calling it out as racist.

Plenty of fans of colour have also said the opposite, hence the entire reason for this discussion. 

10 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

This has been explained numerous times, but again, the lyrics are explicit in denying that those players are genuinely French. 

So its racist against the white French nationals then? As it is being implied they would be useless without African immigration.

12 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

What is your source for this? It is a single line of text. It isn't untrue, but it is by no means a comprehensive definition. 

Merriam-Webster dictionary. 

 

8 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

Obviously, its their job. 

Yes, it is their job, as anti racist organisations. They wouldn't be weighing in to say it is racist if it didn't fall within their remit and that definition. 

 

9 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

Plenty of fans of colour have also said the opposite, hence the entire reason for this discussion.

Who? Give us names. 

 

10 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

So its racist against the white French nationals then? As it is being implied they would be useless without African immigration.

I'm not clear on the point you're making. But I'll repeat that it is saying that black French people are not authentically French, and that is a racist sentiment. 

13 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

Obviously, drama sells. 

So when the media's consensus view is that something is racist it can simply be dismissed on this basis? 

 

14 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

Merriam-Webster dictionary. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

Why have you ommitted large parts of their definition? This is very suspect behaviour. I'll direct you to this part of their definition:

"

also : behavior or attitudes that reflect and foster this belief : racial discrimination or prejudice" 

In this case, the song is racist because it says that black French people are not really French, or in other words they and their national identities are less than those of white French people. This is the very heart of why it is racist.

I'll repeat, you and notnowjim are building strong cases for yourselves as apologists for racism. 

So here's a rendition of the song by some Argentine fans prior to this incident:

You can see the host trying to pull his mic away, and then saying "censored", and the people on the top left being clearly uncomfortable (all of these people are Argentine).

The song also literally says, and I quote (apologies for the language): "They are t*anny-f*ckers like that f*ggot Mbappé"

To see some people suggesting that the song is not meant to be offensive is silly, to say the least.

There's no discussion as to the intent of the song. Belittling Black French players. 

 

18 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

I'll repeat, you and notnowjim are building strong cases for yourselves as apologists for racism. 

Lovely. What exactly is the purpose of saying this?

2 minutes ago, _Ilya_ said:

Lovely. What exactly is the purpose of saying this?

Simply to describe something the way it is. I know that is controversial in this thread, but that isn't something in my control. 

21 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

 1) But I'll repeat that it is saying that black French people are not authentically French, and that is a racist sentiment. 

 

2) In this case, the song is racist because it says that black French people are not really French, or in other words they and their national identities are less than those of white French people. This is the very heart of why it is racist.

3) I'll repeat, you and notnowjim are building strong cases for yourselves as apologists for racism. 

1) No it doesnt. It says nothing about Black people. It doesnt mention Race at all...Stop making things up. You do know not all Africans are black right?

2) It does not say this at all. You are making stuff up again.

3) I'll repeat - go f**k yourself. My wife, and mixed race children have suffered racism (prejudice based on the colour of their skin). Racism has impacted my family, and all forms of racism is abhorrent and 100% wrong.  Is that clear enough for you?  ....  It doesnt change the fact that the song, in of itself is not racist.  It is xenophobic. It was misjudged. It was wrong. But it was not racist.

12 minutes ago, yaz said:

So here's a rendition of the song by some Argentine fans prior to this incident:

You can see the host trying to pull his mic away, and then saying "censored", and the people on the top left being clearly uncomfortable (all of these people are Argentine).

The song also literally says, and I quote (apologies for the language): "They are t*anny-f*ckers like that f*ggot Mbappé"

To see some people suggesting that the song is not meant to be offensive is silly, to say the least.

There's no discussion as to the intent of the song. Belittling Black French players. 

 

Don’t bring logic and common sense into this

13 minutes ago, yaz said:

So here's a rendition of the song by some Argentine fans prior to this incident:

You can see the host trying to pull his mic away, and then saying "censored", and the people on the top left being clearly uncomfortable (all of these people are Argentine).

The song also literally says, and I quote (apologies for the language): "They are t*anny-f*ckers like that f*ggot Mbappé"

To see some people suggesting that the song is not meant to be offensive is silly, to say the least.

There's no discussion as to the intent of the song. Belittling Black French players. 

 

Dont think anyone on this forum has suggested it is not offensive.  Stop making things up.

4 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

I'll repeat - go f**k yourself. My wife, and mixed race children have suffered racism (prejudice based on the colour of their skin). 

Are they aware you go on the Internet to act as an apologist for racism? 

2 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

Are they aware you go on the Internet to act as an apologist for racism? 

stop making sh*t up....can you read? As I said very clearly: Racism has impacted my family, and all forms of racism is abhorrent and 100% wrong. 

Is that clear enough for you? 

Edited July 19, 20241 yr by nonotnowjim

Is it more of a secret vice? Do you reckon they can see it in your eyes? 

Just now, g3.7 said:

Is it more of a secret vice? Do you reckon they can see it in your eyes? 

A bit silly that you are resorting to such posts. Grow up.

It is a bit disturbing that you are jumping through such hoops to try and contort the circumstances to fit your very perculiur interpretation of what constitutes racism. To the extent that you are a) making things up and b) resorting to personal attacks on anyone who dares disagree with you.

There was no racism in this song. It doesnt reference race, skin colour or ethncity. Not all africans are black. Not all angolans are black. However much you might argue that, it doesnt make your warped perspective true.

Words, by themselves, are neutral tools of communication. It is all about the context in which they are used, including the speaker’s intent and the situational dynamics, which determines their impact and meaning.  Intent is a crucial factor in determining whether a word or phrase is racist. Racism involves prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism based on race.... not nationality. 

Anything else you may say to fit your apparent agenda is irrelevent.

So grow up, and stop with the personal attacks.

 

 

17 hours ago, g3.7 said:

Ladies and gentlemen: a collection of racists. 

I hope you are not calling us all racists  here ?

Edited July 19, 20241 yr by Andy2461
Spelling

8 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

Is it more of a secret vice? Do you reckon they can see it in your eyes? 

Why is it that people fighting for all the most righteous causes are inevitably the nastiest? 
 

Looks like this wonderful prejudice-free future we are heading towards will be full of such awful people… 

53 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

Yes, it is their job, as anti racist organisations. They wouldn't be weighing in to say it is racist if it didn't fall within their remit and that definition. 

And they will go to the absolute extreme.

Who? Give us names. 

@Victor90

I'm not clear on the point you're making. But I'll repeat that it is saying that black French people are not authentically French, and that is a racist sentiment. 

Where is the superiority of a specific race here? Where is the hatred?

So when the media's consensus view is that something is racist it can simply be dismissed on this basis? 

The media dramatise quite literally everything, it sells. This isn't new. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

Why have you ommitted large parts of their definition? This is very suspect behaviour. I'll direct you to this part of their definition:

What have i omitted or what have you added? (https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/xenophobia-and-racism-difference)

"

also : behavior or attitudes that reflect and foster this belief : racial discrimination or prejudice" 

In this case, the song is racist because it says that black French people are not really French, or in other words they and their national identities are less than those of white French people. This is the very heart of why it is racist.

I'll repeat, you and notnowjim are building strong cases for yourselves as apologists for racism. 

 

8 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Not all africans are black. Not all angolans are black

They are majority black countries and it is a majority black continent. You're excusing the inexcusable. The song chooses those countries precisely for this reason. Blackness and Africa are inrxtricably linked when discussing ideas of race. 

 

3 minutes ago, _Ilya_ said:

Why is it that people fighting for all the most righteous causes are inevitably the nastiest? 
 

Looks like this wonderful prejudice-free future we are heading towards will be full of such awful people… 

It is interesting that people are more upset about others being correctly described as apologists for racism than they see about the racism itself. Very telling. 

So let me state this: repeated denial that this is racism is tantamount to racist gaslighting. 

19 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

Is it more of a secret vice? Do you reckon they can see it in your eyes? 

You're a f**king weirdo hahaha seek help

9 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

A bit silly that you are resorting to such posts. Grow up.

It is a bit disturbing that you are jumping through such hoops to try and contort the circumstances to fit your very perculiur interpretation of what constitutes racism. To the extent that you are a) making things up and b) resorting to personal attacks on anyone who dares disagree with you.

There was no racism in this song. It doesnt reference race, skin colour or ethncity. Not all africans are black. Not all angolans are black. However much you might argue that, it doesnt make your warped perspective true.

Words, by themselves, are neutral tools of communication. It is all about the context in which they are used, including the speaker’s intent and the situational dynamics, which determines their impact and meaning.  Intent is a crucial factor in determining whether a word or phrase is racist. Racism involves prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism based on race.... not nationality. 

Anything else you may say to fit your apparent agenda is irrelevent.

So grow up, and stop with the personal attacks.

 

 

Don't even bother anymore mate, like i said before: wokism at its worst

5 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

gaslighting

It’s only lunchtime and I am at work, but drinking my shot. Rules are rules.

1 hour ago, g3.7 said:

I responded precisely to the part you put in bold. Have a look back. 

I'm not disregarding his view, I'm saying it's an outlier. 

Have polls "been done"? Do you realise your denialism is making you look like an apologist for racism? 

Sorry, been watching this thread discussion without joining in recently but your last sentence is utter tosh. Regardless of your standpoint on this discussion to infer that anyone questioning your viewpoint is effectively themselves an apologist for racism is groundless and frankly ridiculous. People can have differences of opinion without them automatically being classified in such a manner.

I have an opinion on the migrant crisis that has been experienced in recent years. My opinion may differ from others. If my opinion does differ it does mean that I automatically have extremist leanings, I am just an adult whose opinion might be different than the next person.

9 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

Who? Give us names. 

@Victor90

Sorry the format (and content) of your post is a mess, but you have said there are plenty of fans of colour who don't think it is racist, yet you have only been able to provide a single example to back this up. So I'll repeat - this is an outlier (or minority) view, and it is on you to prove it is not. 

13 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

 

So let me state this: repeated denial that this is racism is tantamount to racist gaslighting. 

Another buzzword?

Racist gaslighting is denying the reality of racism,  downplaying the significance or impact of racist actions or comments.

Nobody on this forum is denying racism exists, or downplaying the significance of it.... I have been explicit, multiple times that the song was xenophobic and offensive. I have also been explicit that I find racism abhorrent.

The fact remains, that the song, which doesnt reference race, skin colour or ethncity, is not in itself racist.

Stop making stuff up.

 

Edited July 19, 20241 yr by nonotnowjim