Did not expect the Argentina squad to just take this lying down.

17 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Did not expect the Argentina squad to just take this lying down.

To an extent I say good on them.

If they believe (as I do) that the song isn't racist and they had no racist intent - but yet they are being called out as racist by every man and their dog - then I kind of admire their guts to stand up and fight back.

It is easy for people to sit behind a keyboard and type all types of accusations, which can taint a players life. So if they are genuine in their belief that the intent wasn't racism - then fair play for fighting back.

1 minute ago, nonotnowjim said:

To an extent I say good on them.

If they believe (as I do) that the song isn't racist and they had no racist intent - but yet they are being called out as racist by every man and their dog - then I kind of admire their guts to stand up and fight back.

It is easy for people to sit behind a keyboard and type all types of accusations, which can taint a players life. So if they are genuine in their belief that the intent wasn't racism - then fair play for fighting back.

Yeah I don't think they thought of it a racism. 

On this topic what has our captain Reece James had to say about it? He has suffered racist abuse before, I woild be interested on his take on all this.

57 minutes ago, Argo said:

Now MacAllister has just put his foot in it.

Be interesting to see how Konate reacts to his statement.

What did MacAllister say?  Apparently he was not on the bus.  According to the Daily Fail, citing reports from Argentina, Mac Allister was among those not on the bus.  Messi was also absent, having remained in Miami after sustaining a serious ankle injury during the final.

But we do know that there were some others on the bus singing/chanting the racist song. Poor little Enzo was not on his own.

41 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

To an extent I say good on them.

If they believe (as I do) that the song isn't racist and they had no racist intent - but yet they are being called out as racist by every man and their dog - then I kind of admire their guts to stand up and fight back.

It is easy for people to sit behind a keyboard and type all types of accusations, which can taint a players life. So if they are genuine in their belief that the intent wasn't racism - then fair play for fighting back.

So it only matters if the person who did something offensive perceives their action as racist or not? Can you even believe what you are writing?

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

Did not expect the Argentina squad to just take this lying down.

Who's lying?

1 hour ago, El regreso said:

What did he say?

I am seeing a lot of Enzo teammates essentially saying it’s the French players fault they got offended 🤦🏾‍♂️🤦🏾‍♂️

Now I can see why they sang that song so openly.

 

42 minutes ago, TheCeleryKing said:

What did MacAllister say?  Apparently he was not on the bus.  According to the Daily Fail, citing reports from Argentina, Mac Allister was among those not on the bus.  Messi was also absent, having remained in Miami after sustaining a serious ankle injury during the final.

But we do know that there were some others on the bus singing/chanting the racist song. Poor little Enzo was not on his own.

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/JCTD5MI2wu

My God there are some gutless takes on this thread.

"Waah it's not racist, Enzo was just misunderstood!"
"He didn't mean to be racist, so it can't be racist"
"You're the racist for calling Enzo a racist!"

This is the same weak, cowardly hand-waving that we see all the time from people who excuse racism because it makes them feel mildly uncomfortable about some celebrity they have a weird parasocial relationship with. All these arguments are tenuous justifications from people who can't seperate their favourite footballers from the real world and in the Chelsea context, it's only because they think of Fernandez as a better player than Fofana. 

It is a racist song. It mocks France the country for relying on African players (which is actually funny, and acknowledges that France would be nowhere without its migrants) but goes a lot further to suggest that Africans living in france can never 'truly' be French:

Quote

Their mom is Nigerian;
Their dad, Cameroonian.
But in the document ...Nationality: French

It is a dog-whistle because only racists and the intended victims of the song are the ones who immediately understand its meaning. The rest of us are free to bury our heads in the sand and pretend like nothing is happening or clutch pearls about the world being "too woke", or are too scared to call out the racists.

The only people who get to decide if this is racist are the people who are the intended targets. They decided it was. 

And that's before even touching the surface of the comments about Mbappe, as if there is something wrong with having a relationship with a transgender person. No one can pretend there is some actual enlightened interpretation of that one that we're all missing.

If you're trying to defend Enzo, you're weak. Grow the f**k up and live in the real world. 

Man utd distancing themselves from it..

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/manchester-united-distance-themselves-argentina-29556927?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

3 hours ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

So it only matters if the person who did something offensive perceives their action as racist or not? Can you even believe what you are writing?

Oh we can play that game....

Shelly: "good morning Mr Jim, would you like a coffee?"

Mr Jim: I do not like your tone. I perceive your words and action to be racist (or any other ist). Therefore - because I perceive your action, then this makes you automatically racist.

Intent matters. As do words. In this case, the song in itself does not mention anything about race, skin colour or ethnicity. The song is ill judged, stupid, provocative, and xenophobic....but not racist. 

Enzo singing the song in the circs and context he did, was ill judged, stupid and provocative - but not racist.

Argentina fans singing the song, whilst making money noises and throwing bananas is ill judged, stupid, provocative and definitely racist.

Nuances matter.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

Who's lying?

Sorry mistyped. Laying down.

5 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

The only people who get to decide if this is racist are the people who are the intended targets. They decided it was. 

 

Dangerous precedent. 

In the meantime, has Mbappe said anything? He was specifically mentioned in the song but I guess that Real Madrid is carefully controlling his possible response.

14 hours ago, g3.7 said:

While we're at it, to the "some of you are easily offended" crowd. Your tolerance for racism is not the test of whether this should be considered racist (and by implication should be considered seriously).

Perhaps the fact that a number of black people and people of colour are upset by this, and are describing it as racist should make you pause for thought? 

I don't see it as a tolerance of racism, more a tolerance of the world we live in today and I try not to get offended by anything.

Judging by the volume of your posts on this topic G3.7, you're clearly one who is offended. And that's fine - some are, some aren't - we're all different.

At least it has go you posting on the forum again.......................!

 

hmmm...

 

 

6 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

My God there are some gutless takes on this thread.

"Waah it's not racist, Enzo was just misunderstood!"
"He didn't mean to be racist, so it can't be racist"
"You're the racist for calling Enzo a racist!"

This is the same weak, cowardly hand-waving that we see all the time from people who excuse racism because it makes them feel mildly uncomfortable about some celebrity they have a weird parasocial relationship with. All these arguments are tenuous justifications from people who can't seperate their favourite footballers from the real world and in the Chelsea context, it's only because they think of Fernandez as a better player than Fofana. 

It is a racist song. It mocks France the country for relying on African players (which is actually funny, and acknowledges that France would be nowhere without its migrants) but goes a lot further to suggest that Africans living in france can never 'truly' be French:

It is a dog-whistle because only racists and the intended victims of the song are the ones who immediately understand its meaning. The rest of us are free to bury our heads in the sand and pretend like nothing is happening or clutch pearls about the world being "too woke", or are too scared to call out the racists.

The only people who get to decide if this is racist are the people who are the intended targets. They decided it was. 

And that's before even touching the surface of the comments about Mbappe, as if there is something wrong with having a relationship with a transgender person. No one can pretend there is some actual enlightened interpretation of that one that we're all missing.

If you're trying to defend Enzo, you're weak. Grow the f**k up and live in the real world. 

The song points out that France benefits from having players that have a different background, the background itself is not the point at all unless you yourself believe that having a different background means that the player himself is inferior and this would make you a racist and not Enzo.

If you honestly believe that Enzo is a racist, can you provide any real evidence for that? He has been in Chelsea for more than enough time and there hasn't been any issues at all.

I'd love to know what people are actually expecting/wanting the end game to be here. 

Enzo's come out and publicly apologised and its been confirmed by the club he's privately apologised to the entire squad. Likely to receive a hefty fine and FIFA will probably stick their nose in and give him a few month ban. 

Is the line drawn there or is this going to be dragged out further? Plenty of evidence to suggest he's not a racist and got caught up in celebrations but i'm sure this will follow him for the rest of his career with certain people. 

6 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

I'd love to know what people are actually expecting/wanting the end game to be here. 

Enzo's come out and publicly apologised and its been confirmed by the club he's privately apologised to the entire squad. Likely to receive a hefty fine and FIFA will probably stick their nose in and give him a few month ban. 

Is the line drawn there or is this going to be dragged out further? Plenty of evidence to suggest he's not a racist and got caught up in celebrations but i'm sure this will follow him for the rest of his career with certain people. 

The end game is simple:

1) The club will either move Enzo on, or he will remain a CFC player. Its the clubs decision and any it takes should be backed by the fan base. 

2) I think Fifa have a right to stick its nose in (bringing the game into disrepute) and any player singing those disgusting chants should face international bans. Fans and clubs across europe are sanctioned for similar chants and behaviour. Its just better accepted as to what is derogatory or racist in Europe. 

3) It will follow him throughout his career as it would any regular person who is disciplined for misconduct as you have to declare to companies criminal records or disciplinary proceedings against you. 

Ball is in the clubs court to get right. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, Nibs said:

I don't see it as a tolerance of racism, more a tolerance of the world we live in today and I try not to get offended by anything.

Judging by the volume of your posts on this topic G3.7, you're clearly one who is offended. And that's fine - some are, some aren't - we're all different.

At least it has go you posting on the forum again.......................!

 

Nibs, this isn't being 'offended' by just 'anything'. 

Black players in our squad have been racially abused by another one of our players. 

By extension all black French people have been abused in the song when you consider it's implications. 

At the heights of the liberal consensus, the white commentariat, policy makers, and general educated groups in sections of the global north started to talk about racism like it was a thing of the past because (for example) paki bashing doesn't happen anymore, people don't put up signs saying no blacks, no dogs, no irish, and so on.

This was never something accepted by the majority of non white people in countries like ours, who still continue to be discriminated against in the present (see the racial disparity in pay for one example), and who still suffer to this day as a consequence of historic racist wrongs (see Windrush related injustices, poorer health outcomes, absence of reparations etc). 

We have watched with horror the inevitable rise of the far right in France as the Liberal consensus shattered and successive governments failed to respond to economic pressures and conservative anxieties. We're now at the point where Le pen is favourite to be the next president of France in 2027.

One of Le pens policies is to bar dual nationals who the describe as merely "French on paper" from certain jobs. In other words, there is a potential far right government waiting to enshrine in the French constitution the racist sentiment expressed in the song fernandez was singing. Meanwhile the far right government in Argentina has sacked it's sports minister for asking for the leaders of the Argentina football team to apologise, doubling down on the language by declaring it 'true'. 

This is the context. There are real world consequences for this stuff. As we speak, Wesley Fofana, our player, is being called a monkey and being told to go back to Africa in response to his public opposition to the song. 

A number of posters have patiently (i no longer qualify for patient) explained to those who do not understand why the song is racist. This is not a point for debate. I can accept that people are educated to different levels about this matter, and that is partly down to when they were educated about it, but those people cannot pretend to still be confused. 

The time for saying it isn't racist because there isn't a specific racist term in the song is over. We have explained it contains racist sentiment. The time for saying well it's about mbappe and is factual is over. It isn't. They are talking about all French people, the song used the word 'they'. The time for saying 'people' get easily offended these days is over. These 'people' are people of colour and we are beyond tired with being gaslit when we say we won't tolerate racism. The logical and rhetorical acrobatics people are making to deny racism speaks volumes. 

I am not asking anyone to be offended, I am saying plainly that the song was racist and no effort to minimise, deflect, distort, or deny is going to stop that. 

I am actually shocked by the response to this- I would have hoped we could have quickly moved on from the obvious (the racism) to how to support our black players and considerations of what can be done to sanction and) if possible) rehabilitate fernandez.  Instead, so furious has been the pushback and denial to this, I have to conclude that certain members of this forum hold racist ideas. 

 

5 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

These 'people' are people of colour and we are beyond tired with being gaslit when we say we won't tolerate racism. The logical and rhetorical acrobatics people are making to deny racism speaks volumes. 

I am not asking anyone to be offended, I am saying plainly that the song was racist and no effort to minimise, deflect, distort, or deny is going to stop that. 

 

 

But there's a person of colour on this forum saying the complete opposite of what you are saying? Why is your opinion correct and his invalid? 

5 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

But there's a person of colour on this forum saying the complete opposite of what you are saying? Why is your opinion correct and his invalid? 

Firstly, is that person not tired of racism? Not sure that putting those words into their mouth is fair or accurate. 

Secondly, and more importantly, familiarise yourself with the concept of 'outliers'. 

17 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

Firstly, is that person not tired of racism? Not sure that putting those words into their mouth is fair or accurate. 

Secondly, and more importantly, familiarise yourself with the concept of 'outliers'. 

Not questioned whether he's tired of racism, just telling you he doesn't think the situation is racist. I've not put any words into their mouth, that's what you've added here. 

Secondly, who are you to say he's the outlier? You may simply be a vocal minority. Have polls been done? Strange to just disregard his opinion completely because he disagrees with what you say. 

2 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

Not questioned whether he's tired of racism, just telling you he doesn't think the situation is racist. I've not put any words into their mouth, that's what you've added here. 

Secondly, who are you to say he's the outlier? You may simply be a vocal minority. Have polls been done? Strange to just disregard his opinion completely because he disagrees with what you say. 

I responded precisely to the part you put in bold. Have a look back. 

I'm not disregarding his view, I'm saying it's an outlier. 

Have polls "been done"? Do you realise your denialism is making you look like an apologist for racism? 

Watch the outrage when club announces any initiative to combat racism as “woke nonsense”

Just now, g3.7 said:

I responded precisely to the part you put in bold. Have a look back. 

I'm not disregarding his view, I'm saying it's an outlier. 

Have polls "been done"? Do you realise your denialism is making you look like an apologist for racism? 

Why is he an outlier though? Once again that's your opinion. Life isn't all black and white.

I'm not denying anything, i think the song is offensive and in awful taste. I just don't personally believe its racist. Its absolutely transphobic though, which weirdly seems to have been completely glossed over.

The lyrics aren't putting down any person of colour, expressing any hatred towards them, downplaying their achievements etc. If anything its highlighting the fact that its African ancestry that has won the World Cup and Euro's, is this not something to be proud of? Racism is: a belief that racial differences produce the inherent superiority of a particular race. The song is highlighting their superiority from the African ancestry.

Like i said: its unnecessary, in poor taste, offensive and transphobic. I just personally don't think it's racist.