18 minutes ago, El regreso said:

What’s your background am curious.

I don't see why that's relevant, but if you must know I'm British born, and my parents are Nigerian immigrants. If you want to have a more in-depth conversation about it in private I'm more than happy too.

But as Mod alluded, you have a history on here at being offended by many things. And you have a right to be offended at something, but I remember full well you had a meltdown and started accusing members of being racist for calling Jackson a donkey, a donkey being the most common insult for a striker. 

So forgive me and many others for saying that you being offended over something isn't exactly news or something people should be shocked at. But this is what happens when you get offended at everything, it kinda loses traction and people stop taking you seriously. Some advice for the future. 

Edited July 18, 20242 yr by Victor90

4 minutes ago, Victor90 said:

I don't see why that's relevant, but if you must know I'm British born, and my parents are Nigerian immigrants. If you want to have a more in-depth conversation about it in private I'm more than happy too.

But as Mod said, you've had a history on here on being easily offended. And you have a right to be offended at something, but I remember full well you had a meltdown and started accusing members of being racist for calling Jackson a donkey, a donkey being the most common insult for a striker. 

So forgive me and many others for saying it that you being offended over something isn't exactly news or something people should be shocked at. But this is what happens when you get offended at everything, it kinda loses traction and people stop taking you seriously. Some advice for the future. 

My best friend of 20+ years is Nigerian.

Also looking back at that discussion I never once called anyone racist I clearly stated referring to black people as animal’s any animal has negative connotations which is indeed factual. “Beast, dog, donkey etc…

This isn’t even controversial.

2 hours ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

I miss the days where if you had a problem with someone you brought it up with them. 

Enzo was stupid and naive to sign the song and even more stupid and naive to record himself doing it. The problem has been multiplied ten fold now with players at Chelsea posting stories about each other like bitchy school children. 

Jackson shouldn't be posting stories in support as it creates further divide between team mates.

Both Fofana's shouldn't be posting stories about it, if you have a problem you have Enzo's phone number. Call him and express your disgust in private. Now the club being further embarrassed by the internal civil war being made public.

There needs to be some serious conversations with the squad about their use of social media...

Saying others have multiplied the problem by responding publicly is akin to victim-blaming. The uproar started and ended with Enzo and some teammatessinging a highly insulting song, aimed against their own colleagues of colour. It's not as if this kind of racism is the first time they encounter it, it's persistent and it's horrible. I can't even imagine what that must be like. How they respond is up to those at who want to call out Enzo and others, in my opinion there is no "should have..." about it.

6 minutes ago, El regreso said:

My best friend of 20+ years is Nigerian.

Also looking back at that discussion I never once called anyone racist I clearly stated referring to black people as animal’s any animal has negative connotations which is indeed factual. “Beast, dog, donkey etc…

This isn’t even controversial.

It's an interesting point. I've certainly referred to Jackson as a donkey, not because of his skin colour, but because he's been terrible. And I'm sure I referred to Lukaku as a donkey as well. But we've had plenty of sh*t white strikers as well, like Torres and Morata spring to mind, and I can't remember if I called them a donkey or not (I definitely called them f**king sh*t). Perhaps it's a subconscious form of racism. Then again, maybe I did call Torres a donkey, I can't remember.

Edit:

https://www.theshedend.com/search/?q=donkey&quick=1&type=forums_topic&item=21635

Turns out I didn't. Though plenty of others did.

Edited July 18, 20242 yr by Zeta

Just now, El regreso said:

My best friend of 20+ years is Nigerian.

Also looking back at that discussion I never once called anyone racist I clearly stated referring to black people as animal’s any animal has negative connotations which is indeed factual. “Beast, dog, donkey etc…

This isn’t even controversial.

I'm sure you alluded that Zeta was at the time, if I'm wrong on that I apologise, but it did cause a big ruckus in the thread and you should know that calling a striker a donkey is a well known insult. It's got nothing to do with race at all. 

Not going to drag this thread out too much because I don't want it to get too ugly. But I just wanted to have my say on the matter, I get why you're offended about it, I'm not offended but that's just me personally. I think the issue is more complex than people realise, and I'm hoping it can get resolved, I don't think Enzo is racist, and I hope the other players at the club see it that way, if not then that's their right. It'll be up to the club to handle it from there won't it. 

We'll see how it plays out in time. 

56 minutes ago, El regreso said:

It’s always interesting watching discussions like this as a black guy and how quickly some are to dismiss this and tell black people how they should react to be offended or not be offended.

 

 

 

It must be horrible to see that this despicable attitude still exists in modern times.

he "different culture" defence is utter bollocks also, these players have been in europe long enough to understand the relevance of what they say/sing. Claiming they are ignorant of it because of their culture is just incredible hand waving bullsh*t.

2 hours ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

 

Both Fofana's shouldn't be posting stories about it, if you have a problem you have Enzo's phone number. Call him and express your disgust in private. Now the club being further embarrassed by the internal civil war being made public.

 

Come on man, your better than this victim blaming nonsense, dont go down that route for f**ks sake.

10 minutes ago, Victor90 said:

I'm sure you alluded that Zeta was at the time, if I'm wrong on that I apologise, but it did cause a big ruckus in the thread and you should know that calling a striker a donkey is a well known insult. It's got nothing to do with race at all. 

Not going to drag this thread out too much because I don't want it to get too ugly. But I just wanted to have my say on the matter, I get why you're offended about it, I'm not offended but that's just me personally. I think the issue is more complex than people realise, and I'm hoping it can get resolved, I don't think Enzo is racist, and I hope the other players at the club see it that way, if not then that's their right. It'll be up to the club to handle it from there won't it. 

We'll see how it plays out in time. 

If look back a few pages I also clearly mentioned that he isn’t racist or hates his black teammates he’s just stupid and probably doesn’t comprehend that what he is singing is racist and it’s a song designed to take away his French teammates sense of belonging to France .

I also mentioned that if Chelsea or any club would announce that they would put their players and staff on yearly diversity training most of the football world would call it nonsense and woke yet most are now saying that’s exactly what should happen to him.

 I have to do that training yearly now since 2014(US tech companies I worked for) and since I started it’s actually help me address some of my own unconscious biases.

He needs education and training probably the entire team and football family does too. The problem I see is no one would of said this before this incident because it would be class as “woke nonsense “

We all have unconscious biases nobody is perfect.

2 minutes ago, El regreso said:

If look back a few pages I also clearly mentioned that he isn’t racist or hates his black teammates he’s just stupid and probably doesn’t comprehend that what he is singing is racist and it’s a song designed to take away his French teammates sense of belonging to France .

I also mentioned that if Chelsea or any club would announce that they would put their players and staff on yearly diversity training most of the football world would call it nonsense and woke yet most are now saying that’s exactly what should happen to him.

 I have to do that training yearly now since 2014(US tech companies I worked for) and since I started it’s actually help me address some of my own unconscious biases.

He needs education and training probably the entire team and football family does too. The problem I see is no one would of said this before this incident because it would be class as “woke nonsense “

We all have unconscious biases nobody is perfect.

Well said. That sort of traing should be compulsory for all football players and no doubt others as well. That’s where the club could be criticized (has to be the owners fault Axeman will tell you😀). It’s on the club to provide training. 

2 hours ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

I miss the days where if you had a problem with someone you brought it up with them. 

Enzo was stupid and naive to sign the song and even more stupid and naive to record himself doing it. The problem has been multiplied ten fold now with players at Chelsea posting stories about each other like bitchy school children. 

Jackson shouldn't be posting stories in support as it creates further divide between team mates.

Both Fofana's shouldn't be posting stories about it, if you have a problem you have Enzo's phone number. Call him and express your disgust in private. Now the club being further embarrassed by the internal civil war being made public.

There needs to be some serious conversations with the squad about their use of social media...

The players definitely should have gotten in contact with each other asap before they started posting things online in response, I thought they had a whatsapp group? 

As someone with African roots I feel this whole situation has been blown way out of proportion, and I would say the same even if he wasn't a Chelsea player, but this is what happens when you do stupid things on social media. 

I think we`ll see clubs banning players from social media as we go forward, and rightly so. A lot of these players have been mollycoddled their entire young adult lives, they dont live in the same world as the vast majority of supporters and "normal" people. 

Social media on the whole is a toxic wasteland of vermin and cretins, unregulated and unruly where the anonymous can say and do almost anything and stay anonymous. The whole thing needs to be fully regulated and stop the anonymity or just shut them the f**k down.

14 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I fail to accept the idea that Enzo is a racist based on that stupid song, you however are free to believe that he belongs to the worst possible group of people ever because of that stupid song.

 

I agree . when we sang " y*d" songs , it was a dig at Tottenham and their fans, it does not make us anti Semitic.

Same with Pikey songs to hammers, doesn't make us anti Gypsy racists. 

And I don't believe the rent boy chants about us means that those fans are homophobic either.

It's a big leap of logic to pretend that football songs/chants are proof of a person's real life character away from football.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Remodez said:

The players definitely should have gotten in contact with each other asap before they started posting things online in response, I thought they had a whatsapp group? 

As someone with African roots I feel this whole situation has been blown way out of proportion, and I would say the same even if he wasn't a Chelsea player, but this is what happens when you do stupid things on social media. 

Players of colour get racist abuse from the terraces every match, and as we've seen now it also comes from their own colleagues. The ship has sailed on any softly-softly approach because it is uncomfortable for the club. 

1 hour ago, Victor90 said:

I'm also black as you well know since we've had these discussions before. And nobody in here is doing that, everyone has a right to their opinion, everyone has a right to be offended, but just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right. 

Well, since we've moved the discussion into ethnic and racial diversity of the Shede End forum, I'm white from Russia and I believe that everyone who disagrees with me on any subject is automatically a Russophobe and racist.

P.S. Incidentally, I also believe everything and everyone around me is part of a simulation that came into existence the moment I was born. So once I'm gone, everybody goes with me. Just to let everybody know, so don't anyone dare to get me angry and disagree with me on any subject and keep praying for my health and welfare.

30 minutes ago, dkw said:

I think we`ll see clubs banning players from social media as we go forward, and rightly so. A lot of these players have been mollycoddled their entire young adult lives, they dont live in the same world as the vast majority of supporters and "normal" people. 

Social media on the whole is a toxic wasteland of vermin and cretins, unregulated and unruly where the anonymous can say and do almost anything and stay anonymous. The whole thing needs to be fully regulated and stop the anonymity or just shut them the f**k down.

What I don't understand is this..those guys get thousands of comments  ( hundreds of thoudsnds too )on their social media sites.

I can't believe they actually go thru each one , it would take f**king days. 

You are right, there's f**k all nice and pleasant on there, it's the worst of human nature on display.

22 minutes ago, abramovich said:

Well, since we've moved the discussion into ethnic and racial diversity of the Shede End forum, I'm white from Russia and I believe that everyone who disagrees with me on any subject is automatically a Russophobe and racist.

P.S. Incidentally, I also believe everything and everyone around me is part of a simulation that came into existence the moment I was born. So once I'm gone, everybody goes with me. Just to let everybody know, so don't anyone dare to get me angry and disagree with me on any subject and keep praying for my health and welfare.

That's atheistism!

3 hours ago, dkw said:

It must be horrible to see that this despicable attitude still exists in modern times.

he "different culture" defence is utter bollocks also, these players have been in europe long enough to understand the relevance of what they say/sing. Claiming they are ignorant of it because of their culture is just incredible hand waving bullsh*t.

I don't hold with this different culture bollocks tbh. If you're part of an Andean village farming community, Amazonian pygmys, the Bedouin, Inuit Indians and Eskimos, fair enough. The rest of the world is covered with sugar and salt saturated  ignoramuses developing obesity whilst living their lives through their iPhones or android devices whilst communicating infrequently in text jargon with each other munching on the same burgers and fries sat in one of 5 billion McDonald's scattered in virtually every town in every country in the world.

 

3 hours ago, ozboy said:

Well said. That sort of traing should be compulsory for all football players and no doubt others as well. That’s where the club could be criticized (has to be the owners fault Axeman will tell you😀). It’s on the club to provide training. 

They're American. I would imagine there is a DEI code and program in place in every American entity that they are involved in.

Edited July 18, 20242 yr by WhiteWall

5 hours ago, Victor90 said:

I think it's just a cultural relativism issue. And dare I say it, different areas in the world have different standards of viewing things, what the Western World deems as racist over here, in South America it isn't, whether you think that's wrong or right that's your opinion. And even though Enzo lives in the UK, he's lived in Argentina for most of his life, so that's probably why he didn't see any wrong in what he was doing.

It reminds me of when the Scousers said cultural differences when it came to Suarez and Evra, and even though I do genuinely believe Suarez was being a racist twat and knew what he was doing, there was a good argument to be made as the word he said to Evra isn't derogatory in South America like it is here. 

As for the whole argument on ethnicity and nationality, it's always been a tricky one. I myself have always identified as British, but I know many others who have African heritage and have been here longer than me, born here, yet they'll identify more with the country their parents were from than the country they were born in. That's just a reality, everyone is different I'm afraid, and that's what makes this whole situation complex.

Personally, I am not offended by what Enzo said, but some people will be, it is what it is. I'm just hoping it can get sorted out in the dressing room and we can move past it, I don't think it's as deep as some people are making it out to be, but again that's my view. 

Have to say Victor, I think you are one of the most sensible posters on this forum - very rarely do I find myself disagreeing with you.

That last bit sums it up for me. Some folk are a lot more easily offended than others and a fair number these days seem to go out of their way to be offended (not that I am a massive fan of Enzo and wouldn't be that disappointed if he was moved on if I'm honest). 

 

Is this connected you think?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cj501d34095o

Why would it be?

4 minutes ago, Simplymo said:

Is this connected you think?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cj501d34095o

No he was rumored to be replaced ages ago. 

Just now, Sconnie Blue said:

No he was rumored to be replaced ages ago. 

Ah good.

Was worried it got that far already!

3 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Have to say Victor, I think you are one of the most sensible posters on this forum - very rarely do I find myself disagreeing with you.

That last bit sums it up for me. Some folk are a lot more easily offended than others and a fair number these days seem to go out of their way to be offended (not that I am a massive fan of Enzo and wouldn't be that disappointed if he was moved on if I'm honest). 

 

And I think by saying that you have to be one of the most insane posters on this forum.

Just joking, but I appreciate it. I talk a lot of sh*t as well, but who doesn't? It's a forum. Politics and all the other crap I usually want to avoid talking about on a football forum because it can always get nasty and fly off the handle really quick. But I agree with everything you just said there, I like Enzo and I hope he doesn't get moved on, it's not the type of PR this club needs either. But I would also respect them if they got it resolved pretty quickly and we can just move on with it. I don't think he meant any malicious intent, slap a fine on him and move on with it is my hope. 

3 minutes ago, Zeta said:

Why would it be?

I stay as far away as possible from twater (x) and insta and apparently there's a lot of tit for tat on social media still going on. Was worried it got that far to involve our sister club....all good. 

 

I hate social media...I usually wait for the Mrs to give me a summary at the end of the day.