The thing I do love about GoT is that no one is safe and you can never guess what is around the corner.

Not really been anything like it on TV that consistently does this that I can remember.

A year is a long wait though!

 

 

cute kid

Edited June 16, 201511 yr by havelschayes

If he was balding he'd be Rooney's double.

See this is where my limited knowledge of the GoT's world has me at a disadvantage.

 

But you don't set up Luke vs Vader and then kill him off. Despite everything, Martin is following very conventional narrative tropes and Jon Snow is a very classical hero. 

 

I actually imagine that by story's end the literal throne will be destroyed, probably by Danaerys and one of her dragons. She doesn't actually want to be ruler, and she'll realise that. Her whole thing is about breaking the wheel, breaking the cycle and she actually doesn't have any motivation to be a ruler. She was born into it, forced into prostitution essentially by her brother and is just doing what she thinks she should but her character really doesn't have any personal motivation. Her whole story has been about breaking chains and she's essentially a captive of her name, or her family's legacy. 

 

And if you think about characters who have died, they're often extremes be it duty (Ned), ambition (Tywin), cowardliness (Renly) etc. whereas the moderate, pragmatic characters like Tyrion, Varys and Jon are probably the most likely to succeed.

 

It's why I think I dislike Danaerys (apart from her name which I've probably spelt wrong) because she hasn't had that moment where she's woken up to her own reality. She's still fulfilling the duties she was raised to think she was supposed to, as queen. She will come to realise that she doesn't want that I think and either sacrifice herself or go off and have a nice family, freeing slaves in the East.

 

But yeah, Jon Snow will probably end up ruling but in a different way having broken the old system with Dany. That's my theory anyway.

 

 

 

 

For all the talk of 'shocking' moments, I don't think there's anything unconventional in any of them to be honest. Martin is still writing a very conventional hero's tale and I don't think any moment has really been that out there which is why what happened in the last episode would be very odd and out of character if it were to be true.

 

an arranged marriage & prostitution are two separate things - you are wrong here

an arranged marriage & prostitution are two separate things - you are wrong here

In the context of this particular case, no. She was pimped out for her brother's gain. Not sure if it's as explicit in the books as the show.

The fact she falls for him is troubling from a feminist viewpoint but that's a huge can of worms.

You do realize you're talking about a medieval society? She had no choice in the matter, no one asked for her opinion.

 

Also the arrangement actually served the agenda of Varys and Illyrio (the latter missing from the series) and I highly doubt they ever cared much for Viserys. I expect any real or well faked Targaryen would work for them.

In the context of this particular case, no. She was pimped out for her brother's gain. Not sure if it's as explicit in the books as the show.

The fact she falls for him is troubling from a feminist viewpoint but that's a huge can of worms.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but this was an arranged marriage when Dany became the Khalessi of the Dothrakis. In essence she became the Queen of Khal Drogo. It wasn't like she got shipped over to Littlefinger & made to work in the Brothels.

Honestly I couldn't hate Brienne more, she's killed off two of my favourite characters.

Or has she?

The series script seems to give a lot away, such as Brienne always saying "shadow with face of Stannis", it was always going to happen that she came face to face with him. I called it further back in the topic.

Going by that same theory - the hound is alive, as in a scene a few weeks ago, Arya was lying when she said she hated him.

Also, remember when Sam told Olly the other week that "Jon Snow always comes back".

Their in the script for a reason.

You do realize you're talking about a medieval society? She had no choice in the matter, no one asked for her opinion.

 

Also the arrangement actually served the agenda of Varys and Illyrio (the latter missing from the series) and I highly doubt they ever cared much for Viserys. I expect any real or well faked Targaryen would work for them.

 

We are, but I don't think it's something that Martin actually thinks we should be in favour of, or even accepting of. Some of the way the females are portrayed is extremely troubling, but I think Martin has punished those who prostitute women out or even hurt them. 

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but this was an arranged marriage when Dany became the Khalessi of the Dothrakis. In essence she became the Queen of Khal Drogo. It wasn't like she got shipped over to Littlefinger & made to work in the Brothels.

 

You're right that it was an arranged marriage but look at the way it was carried out, the way her brother treated her and the way Drogo treated her at first. She had to 'take control' in that relationship. That's her journey in my opinion, from sex object as a path to power for her brother to someone who can

 

renounce the need for power and become something more than that. Whether Martin actually has enough respect for any woman to do that I don't know. Every woman is either a bitch, a whore, a victim, a damsel who needs saving and if they are in any way powerful they're extremely masculine (Brienne in particular). Maybe it's representative of 'the time' but this isn't a historical story. It isn't actually set on Earth. But the feminist reading of this story isn't exactly good reading.

 

Are we really discussing feminism in a fictional, medieval world?

 

Jesus f**king Christ. When will this bollocks stop? 

Are we really discussing feminism in a fictional, medieval world?

 

Jesus f**king Christ. When will this bollocks stop? 

 

There's plenty out there and some of it has a point. Personally I've never bothered to think about it but there aren't many strong female characters in the world. 

Are we really discussing feminism in a fictional, medieval world?

Jesus f**king Christ. When will this bollocks stop?

Yeah!

It's ridiculous lol

There's plenty out there and some of it has a point. Personally I've never bothered to think about it but there aren't many strong female characters in the world. 

 

Brienne who beat The Hound in a 1 v 1 (Kicked him in the balls too)

Dany, the liberator of slaves who raised three dragons and is a contender for the throne

Melisandre, the woman who had Stannis on a lead for most of the series we've seen her in

Arya Stark and her journey to ruthless assassin

Cersai isn't a little girl by any means. Nor are the Sand Snakes are their mother.

 

They're the ones I can think off on top of my head. Sure there's plenty more. 

 

There's a difference between 'feminists' and woman who strive for equality. The feminists just want special treatment. The women striving for equality recognize that Men don't exactly have it easy on Game of Thrones either. 

cringy stuff from city

 

 

the only good one is george rr martin demichelis 

Maester Pelegrino

Brienne who beat The Hound in a 1 v 1 (Kicked him in the balls too)

Dany, the liberator of slaves who raised three dragons and is a contender for the throne

Melisandre, the woman who had Stannis on a lead for most of the series we've seen her in

Arya Stark and her journey to ruthless assassin

Cersai isn't a little girl by any means. Nor are the Sand Snakes are their mother.

 

They're the ones I can think off on top of my head. Sure there's plenty more. 

 

There's a difference between 'feminists' and woman who strive for equality. The feminists just want special treatment. The women striving for equality recognize that Men don't exactly have it easy on Game of Thrones either. 

 

I agree that there's an argument against the notion that Martin is a misogynist but I don't think there's many characters there who can't be put into the usual damsel/temptress/evil role or simply are male-identified. I don't think there are any female characters who aren't at one time raped, portrayed as sinister or exhibit the sort of nobility that Ned or Jon Snow do. Even Danerys is frequently (at the start) used simply for sex with an implication of rape and often needs to be saved by a man. Arguing that Cersei or Melisandre are strong female characters is like saying Lady Macbeth is a sympathetic character. 

 

Maybe it's simply a reflection of the time (which isn't even a real time) but it's not like you can't have strong female roles in the fantasy genre.

 

The fact that you said 'the feminists just want special treatment' suggests this probably isn't the best place to have this discussion. Feminism is a massively diverse arena and this is a very complex issue. Like I said, it's not something I'd spent much time looking at but it's not exactly teeming with strong female roles for a woman to identify with. But it doesn't have to be because it's got dragons and swords and tits.

I agree that there's an argument against the notion that Martin is a misogynist but I don't think there's many characters there who can't be put into the usual damsel/temptress/evil role or simply are male-identified. I don't think there are any female characters who aren't at one time raped, portrayed as sinister or exhibit the sort of nobility that Ned or Jon Snow do. Even Danerys is frequently (at the start) used simply for sex with an implication of rape and often needs to be saved by a man. Arguing that Cersei or Melisandre are strong female characters is like saying Lady Macbeth is a sympathetic character. 

 

Maybe it's simply a reflection of the time (which isn't even a real time) but it's not like you can't have strong female roles in the fantasy genre.

 

The fact that you said 'the feminists just want special treatment' suggests this probably isn't the best place to have this discussion. Feminism is a massively diverse arena and this is a very complex issue. Like I said, it's not something I'd spent much time looking at but it's not exactly teeming with strong female roles for a woman to identify with. But it doesn't have to be because it's got dragons and swords and tits.

 

What I meant about that comment, is that most self proclaimed feminists are not feminists at all. They just want special treatment. The real feminists are hugely respectable. The ones that don't cry misogyny at every little thing. 

 

Of course it's a reflection of the time. Women were thought as property back in those days. Men and women were not equal then and it wouldn't look right if Martin portrayed as so. I find it all very hypocritical personally. 

Edited June 17, 201511 yr by JoeyN

Agree with Joey that it's set in a Medieval World where men dominated so a lot of it is realistic.

 

Completely disagree that feminists want special treatment - they want equality. A few radical feminists get attention but 99% of feminists, myself included, just want equality.

 

BUT, this is the Game of Thrones thread. Question - is Stannis' fate known in the book? Don't say if he's dead or alive, just whether you book-readers know either way. 

Agree with Joey that it's set in a Medieval World where men dominated so a lot of it is realistic.

 

Completely disagree that feminists want special treatment - they want equality. A few radical feminists get attention but 99% of feminists, myself included, just want equality.

 

BUT, this is the Game of Thrones thread. Question - is Stannis' fate known in the book? Don't say if he's dead or alive, just whether you book-readers know either way. 

 

What I meant about that comment, is that most self proclaimed feminists are not feminists at all. They just want special treatment. The real feminists are hugely respectable. The ones that don't cry misogyny at every little thing. 

 

In regards to Stannis the Mannis, his fate is undecided in the books and so is his personality in many ways. In the books he's currently riding to Winterfell in the snow storm. I don't know if it's going to end up sacrificing Shireen or not. 

 

Read the books dude. You will not regret it.

Edited June 17, 201511 yr by JoeyN

What I meant about that comment, is that most self proclaimed feminists are not feminists at all. They just want special treatment. The real feminists are hugely respectable. The ones that don't cry misogyny at every little thing. 

 

In regards to Stannis the Mannis, his fate is undecided in the books and so is his personality in many ways. In the books he's currently riding to Winterfell in the snow storm. I don't know if it's going to end up sacrificing Shireen or not. 

 

Read the books dude. You will not regret it.

 

I got to halfway through the first one a few months ago then got distracted. I'll definitely pick it up again this Summer. 

In regards to Stannis the Mannis, his fate is undecided in the books and so is his personality in many ways. In the books he's currently riding to Winterfell in the snow storm. I don't know if it's going to end up sacrificing Shireen or not. 

 

Read the books dude. You will not regret it.

 

He probably won't. Melisandre, Selyse and Shireen were left at Castle Black.

 

Re: strong female characters. I think there are quite a few. Lady Olenna (who basically runs House Tyrell), Cersei (she might be a vicious, spiteful whore but she's also a strong character), Catelyn had her moments, Asha, Maege Mormont, Genna Lannister (sorry, Frey) Meera Reed, Val, Osha, Ygritte, and basically half of Dorne...

 

And yeah, read the books. Based on the series only you cannot see every detail of the characters as GRRM intended. They changed or cut a lot.

Edited June 17, 201511 yr by undertow

If you love math, stats and ASOIAF you will probably enjoy this post as I did:

http://allendowney.blogspot.com/2015/03/bayesian-survival-analysis-for-game-of.html

I suspect people are beginning to take GOT too seriously.  It's never going to be on a university syllabus, folks!