2 hours ago, Van Butsen said:

Moses didn't set the world alight on loan.

Is Baba going to play a completely differnt position here? If not thats apples to oranges. Moses is still very average as a winger, that hasnt changed

2 hours ago, Van Butsen said:

Moses didn't set the world alight on loan.

The problem is that Baba had enough playing time last year with the first team squad to show what he was capable off, and honestly I don't think he impressed anyone. He could have one or two good runs up the pitch, but he was always susceptible to losing the ball in attack and in defense he was a liability. Unless he improves over the course of the year, I don't see him as being the back-up to Alonso.

20 hours ago, Van Butsen said:

Moses didn't set the world alight on loan.

Moses wasn't deemed surplus to requirements and sent out on loan by Conte himself although he was the only natural player we had in his position...

1 minute ago, True Blue23 said:

Moses wasn't deemed surplus to requirements and sent out on loan by Conte himself although he was the only natural player we had in his position...

If the man can't see the performances of Alonso and change his mind then he's weak.  I'm sure he can.

18 hours ago, Xfaxtor said:

Is Baba going to play a completely differnt position here? If not thats apples to oranges. Moses is still very average as a winger, that hasnt changed

Couldn't disagree more.

Has been exceptional for most of this season, was excellent a few years ago for us, was pretty good (and regular) in Liverpool's 'almost' season and was very good at Wigan.

Just now, Van Butsen said:

If the man can't see the performances of Alonso and change his mind then he's weak.  I'm sure he can.

Alonso isn't great. He's decent and a good player to have in your squad, but for me that's it. But if Conte wants to upgrade on him, which I think he should, what makes you think he considers a player, who he clearly didn't rate in Pre Seaosn (he liked a right footed youth player better than him), and who since has done little in Germany that could have changed Contes mind, an improvement?

I think we should just go for another player.

Just now, True Blue23 said:

Alonso isn't great. He's decent and a good player to have in your squad, but for me that's it. But if Conte wants to upgrade on him, which I think he should, what makes you think he considers a player, who he clearly didn't rate in Pre Seaosn (he liked a right footed youth player better than him), and who since has done little in Germany that could have changed Contes mind, an improvement?

I think we should just go for another player.

I've always said that a good manager, especially at a club like Chelsea with it's current players, probably won't need to buy too many (if any players) to be competitive.

Conte has come in, used Moses, used Chalobah, has Aina ready to come in if need.  I'm just speculating here but I think he would be more the willing to use the players we already have on a our books if there is an issue than spending.  CB was a huge issue at the start of the year, and a player needed to be bought, which he did.  But in other positions he has reinvented players and actually "coached" them with his methods.

Babe had some iffy moments, I think Alonso has been 10X worse.

I would have thought he would have been able to look at Baba knowing how he might fit into a 3-4-3, even if they weren't specifically working on it at the time, i'm sure it was in his mind that he might switch to that formation at some point.

If 3-4-3 was in his mind, I think he would have tried to move one of Oscar, Fabregas or RLC so as to keep two among Traore, Cuadrado, Kennedy, and Baba. Because once we switched to the 3-4-3 formation and we all saw it's working well, we realized we don't have more options on the wing. We only need two players to get injured on the wings and we are f**ked.

3 minutes ago, wallosh said:

If 3-4-3 was in his mind, I think he would have tried to move one of Oscar, Fabregas or RLC so as to keep two among Traore, Cuadrado, Kennedy, and Baba. Because once we switched to the 3-4-3 formation and we all saw it's working well, we realized we don't have more options on the wing. We only need two players to get injured on the wings and we are f**ked.

95% of teams are f*cked in some way if they lose two starters

95% of teams are f*cked in some way if they lose two starters

I know, but I won't lose sleep if Costa and Kante or Matic gets injured because I know Fabregas, Oscar, Mikel and Batshuayi can step in and do something. But if we lose Hazard and Moses I will especially be terrified about Ivanovic or Aina coming in for Moses.

Just now, wallosh said:

I know, but I won't lose sleep if Costa and Kante or Matic gets injured because I know Fabregas, Oscar, Mikel and Batshuayi can step in and do something. But if we lose Hazard and Moses I will especially be terrified about Ivanovic or Aina coming in for Moses.

Cannot replace an Eden Hazard.  I'm less terrified than you for that side.  Alonso is my biggest concern.

1 hour ago, Van Butsen said:

Couldn't disagree more.

Has been exceptional for most of this season, was excellent a few years ago for us, was pretty good (and regular) in Liverpool's 'almost' season and was very good at Wigan.

This is revisionist history at its finest. He was bang average first time around, scored some goals but wasted a ton of possesion almost always picked the wrong option and looked generally clueless in 1v1 situatuons. He was absolutely shocking at Liverpool. Like literally one of their worst players. Slightly better at West Ham, but overall he was poor every time I saw him. Might have been decent at Stoke/Wigan I honestly cant recall. 

 

1 hour ago, Xfaxtor said:

This is revisionist history at its finest. He was bang average first time around, scored some goals but wasted a ton of possesion almost always picked the wrong option and looked generally clueless in 1v1 situatuons. He was absolutely shocking at Liverpool. Like literally one of their worst players. Slightly better at West Ham, but overall he was poor every time I saw him. Might have been decent at Stoke/Wigan I honestly cant recall. 

 

This has being overly critical and selective written all over it.  I actually attend quite a few hammers games so I'm not sure how you think he was better at West Ham than at Liverpool?  Had two really good games early for WH (against Newcastle at home, forget the other one) then found himself on the bench for most of the season after that.  

Liverpool in the second half of the season he was (from memory) first sub or started during their charge and more than held his own (which is why i said 'pretty good').  He could have been better, but certainly not an "average winger".

I also remember him being pretty good to great for us in 2013, though can't remember specifics.. he did score 3 goals in the knockout stages of Europa league.

How can you say he is a bang average winger?

Edited December 7, 20169 yr by Van Butsen

2 hours ago, Van Butsen said:

95% of teams are f*cked in some way if they lose two starters

And here is the proof.

44 minutes ago, Van Butsen said:

This has being overly critical and selective written all over it.  I actually attend quite a few hammers games so I'm not sure how you think he was better at West Ham than at Liverpool?  Had two really good games early for WH (against Newcastle at home, forget the other one) then found himself on the bench for most of the season after that.  

Liverpool in the second half of the season he was (from memory) first sub or started during their charge and more than held his own (which is why i said 'pretty good').  He could have been better, but certainly not an "average winger".

I also remember him being pretty good to great for us in 2013, though can't remember specifics.. he did score 3 goals in the knockout stages of Europa league.

How can you say he is a bang average winger?

I can say he was better because of how poor he was at Liverpool. Saying he was pretty good just shows you didnt watch him or dont remember. Ask any Liverpool fan how he played.

I cant see how anyone thought he was great for us, had some decent performances sure, but great? Im not sure you know what that word means. Torres scored 6 goals in 9 in the EL, was he pretty good to great as well? I think saying he was average out on loan is being quite generous to Moses.

It feels like you are just trying to argue this point to fit Your narrative about Baba.

Edited December 7, 20169 yr by Xfaxtor

3 minutes ago, Xfaxtor said:

I can say he was better because of how poor he was at Liverpool. Saying he was pretty good just shows you didnt watch him or dont remember. Ask any Liverpool fan how he played.

I cant see how anyone thought he was great for us, had some decent performances sure, but great? Im not sure you know what that word means. Torres scored 6 goals in 9 in the EL, was he pretty good to great as well? I think saying he was average out on loan is being quite generous to Moses.

It feels like you are just trying to argue this point to fit Your narrative about Baba.

Hang on, your back on my points now?  I don't need to ask Liverpool fans anything, they are the most deluded people in the world.  I think everyone watched them a lot that year, I can remember just fine without having to ask anyone.

I'm comfortable with how good I think Moses is/was.

I can't see how you think he is bang average?

21 minutes ago, Van Butsen said:

Hang on, your back on my points now?  I don't need to ask Liverpool fans anything, they are the most deluded people in the world.  I think everyone watched them a lot that year, I can remember just fine without having to ask anyone.

I'm comfortable with how good I think Moses is/was.

I can't see how you think he is bang average?

It doesnt appear that you can, thats why I suggested it.

He was a great option for us in his first spell here Xfactor. Not sure what you mean by "average" but he was a very solid player for us, and added a lot of balance to the side instead of just playing Oscar, Mata and Hazard together. Always put himself around and tried his best, and at the time I did not see evidence of his poor positioning or poor options as you are saying... he was really good for us, both defensively and going forward -- being more direct. He was key in getting us to the Europa League final too, and put in great performances in the PL. Liverpool wasn't great for him, there he was just bang on average... and West Ham he started off amazing, but then faded. As for his performances at Chelsea, he played amazing every single pre season that I saw him feature in... I was pretty annoyed that Moses wasn't given a chance by Mourinho, and am on record in plenty of threads saying he's a great substitute or option for the first team to have (initially saw him as back up for either Hazard or Willian). But obviously this new formation change has made him EVEN better.

Anyway I guess we can agree to disagree. He was never a world beater, but he has always been a very solid player -- and for Chelsea levels that says a lot. Always worked hard and contributed, and what's important now, is not our opinions of how he used to be: But that finally he got his chance and given the circumstances he is one of our best performers!

This has being overly critical and selective written all over it.  I actually attend quite a few hammers games so I'm not sure how you think he was better at West Ham than at Liverpool?  Had two really good games early for WH (against Newcastle at home, forget the other one) then found himself on the bench for most of the season after that.  

Liverpool in the second half of the season he was (from memory) first sub or started during their charge and more than held his own (which is why i said 'pretty good').  He could have been better, but certainly not an "average winger".

I also remember him being pretty good to great for us in 2013, though can't remember specifics.. he did score 3 goals in the knockout stages of Europa league.

How can you say he is a bang average winger?

Moses might just be the new Mikel. Moses is about to overthrow Mikel as the most underrated player we have.
Moses was still very young when he joined us yet scored 10 goals in his first season with us. He scored probably in all competitions he played in for us including the champions league yet people label as a bang average player. You guys don't even want to give him a chance to adapt with our team before slating him as the worst footballer ever. Pathetic!

I can say he was better because of how poor he was at Liverpool. Saying he was pretty good just shows you didnt watch him or dont remember. Ask any Liverpool fan how he played.
I cant see how anyone thought he was great for us, had some decent performances sure, but great? Im not sure you know what that word means. Torres scored 6 goals in 9 in the EL, was he pretty good to great as well? I think saying he was average out on loan is being quite generous to Moses.
It feels like you are just trying to argue this point to fit Your narrative about Baba.

I don't have the time to ask any Liverpool fan a senseless question. I think you should be the one to ask yourself why Moses was poor at Liverpool? Was he happy to go on loan after his performance in his first season for us? Don't forget Moses gave 150% in preseason when José came, he was one of our best and fittest player in preseason, yet José rewarded him by sending him out on loan to Liverpool. Moses is a human like you and me. If you were in his shoes, and you were treated that way, would you still have the motivation to give your best at Liverpool when your heart is somewhere else?

50 minutes ago, wallosh said:

I don't have the time to ask any Liverpool fan a senseless question. I think you should be the one to ask yourself why Moses was poor at Liverpool? Was he happy to go on loan after his performance in his first season for us? Don't forget Moses gave 150% in preseason when José came, he was one of our best and fittest player in preseason, yet José rewarded him by sending him out on loan to Liverpool. Moses is a human like you and me. If you were in his shoes, and you were treated that way, would you still have the motivation to give your best at Liverpool when your heart is somewhere else?

Not wanting to be pedantic but how do you give 150%?

I agree that Moses has done extremely well in previous pre seasons and to why he was shipped out by Jose only he knows.

Alonso is work in progress and doing a pretty good job so far.

Look at the positives rather than the negatives.

14 hours ago, 1905 said:

Alonso is work in progress and doing a pretty good job so far.

Look at the positives rather than the negatives.

But that's just that.  Even if he is a work in progress, he is well below the prerequisites needed to qualify as a work in progress.  He is not doing a pretty good job.

 

Feck bringing Baba back, get Kenedy back. He shouldn't have left in the first place.

He can't be doing such a bad job when we are top of the PL and have conceded only 4 goals (including the league cup) since the change in formation to 3-4-3. I understand that he is not setting the world on fire and he is not world class, but he is not that bad either. We need a better player there, sure, but Baba is not that player. We need top class and I hope Conte has some ideas, but so far he is trusting Alonso and it is not going that bad. Now, if Conte wanted Baba and he brought him back, he'd have my backing. I trust Conte's ideas and choices, he is proving to be a top manager.