2 hours ago, evissy said:

So you don't want what Conte wants... If you play the youth you pretty much sacrifice CL and PL.

Non-chelsea fans get on our backs with 'youth this youth that' out of jealousy. I bet Tottenham would have liked the title instead of finishing second. Players are usually at their best when they are 27. Why not win the title with a more senior squad? What is wrong with that? Why do you want a kid break through our ranks where he's been for 3-4 seasons instead of winning the title. Can't have it all. Everton does that.

All fair points evissy. But I don't accept that you can't play youth and still win things. I don't accept that 1000 minutes across the season for Musonda, Baker, Andreas (doesn't have to be at the same time) will automatically mean we'll fail. 

I for one would love to see one of our own win titles with us in a few years time. They can't do that if they never get a shot. I think a small squad with decent youth as depth rather than second tier players bought in for 20-30m is a much better option.

 

Pedro Mendez

Musonda could only manage one start on 9 games last seasno at Real Betis when Poyet was Manager. I like the lad but it hardly sounds like the next Messi. Boga is no Hazard although again he looks a good player. Hazard stood out in his first game. Pedro had a good season, but like Morata couldn't really get into his Spanish team of choice. 

Morata I grant it's far too early to tell, but if he matches Costas goal scoring record he'll do well. 

In our preseason games other than against arsenal the attack looked fairly toothless without Hazard and costa. Leastways that's what I saw. if you think our attacking options compare to Man C then we will have to disagree. Nor will candreva or Lorente change that. 

Remy has experience Willian is an alternative to Pedro but in my view we need Oscars replacement an attacking midfielder or something like that. Someone that can make a difference consistently. Maybe I'm wrong. 

45 minutes ago, ozboy said:

Pedro Mendez

Musonda could only manage one start on 9 games last seasno at Real Betis when Poyet was Manager. I like the lad but it hardly sounds like the next Messi. Boga is no Hazard although again he looks a good player. Hazard stood out in his first game. Pedro had a good season, but like Morata couldn't really get into his Spanish team of choice. 

Morata I grant it's far too early to tell, but if he matches Costas goal scoring record he'll do well. 

In our preseason games other than against arsenal the attack looked fairly toothless without Hazard and costa. Leastways that's what I saw. if you think our attacking options compare to Man C then we will have to disagree. Nor will candreva or Lorente change that. 

Remy has experience Willian is an alternative to Pedro but in my view we need Oscars replacement an attacking midfielder or something like that. Someone that can make a difference consistently. Maybe I'm wrong. 

I agree city's attacking option are a lot more deep then ours and Aguero is obviously currently better than Morata and Bats and Jesus looks like a talent but is less proven than both, so I would say they have the edge there, having said that Hazard would definitely get in their team and Willian is currently better than Sane, so our starting wide options are better than there's. I also don't think we can compare their no.10 options with ours as we don't use one and is a reason why I don't think we need an Oscar replacement especially as Hazard, Willian and Fabregas are all adept in that position if we decide to start using one.

I also think City are too deep in that position and we would have to weaken other positions in order to be able to afford the same depth City have in the attacking mid positions. I mean come on they have; Sterling (£50m), Silva (£24m), Sane (£43m), De Bruyne (£63m), Silva (£42m) and Nasri (£24m) for maximum 3 positions, and considering Toure and Gundgan prefer playing further forward. It is extremely strong.   

On Musonda, the season before he managed 13 starts in his half season there and took the interest of both la liga giants, then, as you say, Poyet came in a didn't like/trust him which was a big shame as you can see there is a huge amount of talent there. And yes he is lacking in a few areas at the moment, and is currently a step down from Pedro/Willian, however most of what he lacks will come with experience and playing with the best, I we give him that experience and confidence/trust, I don't see why he cant be as good as Hazard in a couple of years. That's why I want him here in the squad, especially when you consider in a regular season he won't usually be needed but if used occasionally say (1000-1500 minutes) and training with the likes of Hazard and Willian he will soon become an asset to the squad, and can take Willian/Pedros spot without the need to spend £60m+.

I also don't think we can judge the squad on the Bayern and Inter games as the players looked tired when getting onto the pitch and it is known Conte likes to run heavy fitness sessions before pre season games which would explain this, but I could be wrong.

For me we have enough in attack given we only use 3 attacking minded players and actually have the strongest starting 3 in the league.
 

Edited August 6, 20178 yr by PedroMendez

50 minutes ago, PedroMendez said:

On Musonda, the season before he managed 13 starts in his half season there and took the interest of both la liga giants, then, as you say, Poyet came in a didn't like/trust him which was a big shame as you can see there is a huge amount of talent there. And yes he is lacking in a few areas at the moment, and is currently a step down from Pedro/Willian, however most of what he lacks will come with experience and playing with the best, I we give him that experience and confidence/trust, I don't see why he cant be as good as Hazard in a couple of years.

I know you are an overly optimistic chap but bloody hell, this really takes the cake!

After watching the Arsenal game I can nothing else but continue wondering what is going on in the minds of our board. Facing much more big matches next season our starting eleven is not any stronger than last season and we have even less power on the bench than in 2016-17.

Our starting 11 to me is stronger as long as Haz and Bakayoko are available. The depth is really a problem. Conte wouldn't go on expressing himself in these pressers if it wasn't true. He'd love a Ballack, a Malouda, a Kalou even for depth but there is none.

8 hours ago, PedroMendez said:

Why do you think we are laughably short in attack?

For me this is one of our strongest areas.

For the wide attacking roles we have one World class option in Hazard, then two top class options in Pedro and Willian (both would start for all but the Manc Clubs), and then exciting talents in Boga and Musonda as back ups. You could also include the fact that Moses can play here if needed as can Remy and Bats in a pinch.

And then for the striking roles we have Morata potential WC and Bats who deserves a shot with us as he scores goals when he plays (9 goals in 700 minutes) both fighting for one spot and then Remy as back up. Whilst Remy has obviously struggled over the last 2 seasons with injuries lets not forget that he still has a fair amount of Premier League (79 app, 28 goals), Champions League (25 app, 5 goals) and International experience (31 apps, 7 goals), which for a 3rd choice striker in a 1 striker formation isn't bad.
Further if you look at the current composition of last years top 6's squads, he is actually one of the stronger 3rd choice strikers, behind Welbeck at Arsenal and Maybe Bony at City although he is likely to be sold.

On your point about lack of ambition and the level of quality not being up to Hazard's standard;

We currently have 3 World class players in the squad (Courtois, Azpi and Hazard), with a bunch of players in the level below (Kante, Willian, Pedro, Luiz and Fabregas).  

Realistically what players out there are on Hazard's Level and available?
We can't afford to sign the Neymar's of this world so that rules out most, especially those in their prime, historically been pretty rubbish at picking up WC players that have peeked and what we seem to do wellis picking up players that have yet to become World class but they develop into it; Hazard himself, Robben, Lampard, Terry, Cech, Azpi, Courtois and Drogba all spring to mind. Even Ashley Cole developed into WC at the club. I can only think of 2 players that were successful at the club and signed as WC players Fabregas and Ballack. 

Yet we have been chasing a world class LWB in Sandro, whilst we haven't got anywhere yet we have still been atleast chasing him.
We have signed a potentially WC striker in Morata from RM at 60-70m a player that looks like he has all the attributes to be world class and loves scoring on the biggest stage. 
And we have signed Bakayoko a player highly sought after who had just won Ligue 1 with his team in order to upgrade our midfield, if not in personnel quality just by being a slightly better fit for the role he is tasked to do. For the record I rated Matic and think we are losing out big time selling him but Matic is not faster than Bakayoko.
We have also apparently been chasing VVD whilst already being stacked at CB and he is another according to some with the potential to be WC.

All of which to me suggests ambition, at least to to improve and give the manager the starting 11 he wants, although maybe with a slight lack of execution.

There does however seem to be some disconnect between the Board and Conte over what constitutes suitable depth, for which we are atleast a LWB and CM short, I'm sure the board agrees with this, but also could do with another RWB, CM and ST.

You really think Pedro/Willian will start ahead of Sanchez/Ozil, Mane/Salah?/Coutinho, Eriksen/Son/Alli ???

5 minutes ago, evissy said:

Our starting 11 to me is stronger as long as Haz and Bakayoko are available. The depth is really a problem. Conte wouldn't go on expressing himself in these pressers if it wasn't true. He'd love a Ballack, a Malouda, a Kalou even for depth but there is none.

starting 11 last season: tibo, dave, ssb, cahill, moses, matic, kante, alonso, pedro, costa, hazard. In the coming season Bakayoko to replace Matic and Morata to Costa. I think it's quite a draw. Ofcourse these are matters of opinion. But as you said, depthis really we need.

I don't think we are stronger. Costa gave us goals, we still have to see if Morata can don the same. If he can't give us 20 then it will be weaker. 

33 minutes ago, ducavis said:

You really think Pedro/Willian will start ahead of Sanchez/Ozil, Mane/Salah?/Coutinho, Eriksen/Son/Alli ???

In a 3-4-3 or 4-2-3-1 Pedro/Willian would start for Arsenal for me, both are better than Ozil out wide, Ozil is a better 10 but I haven't seen anything that makes me think he would be better than them out wide, and tbh I hadn't even included Ozil in the equation because I was treating him as a 10, I had been comparing them to Ox, Walcott and Iwobi for the RW spot, when I had wrote that. 

Assuming the 4-1-4-1/4-2-1-3 system for Liverpool I'd have either ahead of Salah as imo they add more to the team, although I think Salah would score more goals. Something like Mane - Couinho - Willian behind Firminho for me would be a better a better attacking unit. 

And for Tottenham both Willian and Pedro are better wide players than Son, Erikson and Alli out wide, but Alli and Erikson are definitely better 10's so really it depends on the formation, personally this is the only squad that I think both would get into at the same time as I would go with Pedro, Alli, Willian in behind Kane, Son despite his form last season is very inconsistent he either blows hot or very cold and I don't rate Erikson very highly.

That being said there definitely are better players than both of them in each of those squads and I'd definitely replace either with Sanchez or Mane given the choice. but Imo they would get into those teams if they were there, I don't think they would revolutionise those squads or even improve them by much but they are a slight upgrade on what they have.

Edited August 6, 20178 yr by PedroMendez

Hopefully yesterday will prompt the board into getting some business done quickly. I really can't believe how short our squad is, with the season starting next week!

What a mess we've gotten ourselves into.

On 8/5/2017 at 09:05, abramovich said:

If fans stop stressing over transfers or other things concerning their club, there'd be no point in visiting this, or any other football forum. 

It looks like the manager is very much stressed about the transfer situation and the state of the squad, if his interviews during the Asia tour weren't enough his yesterday's press conference was downright depressing. It's one thing to imagine things and look for reasons to complain when there aren't any but that's clearly not the case here.                                                                                                                                                                                            

             

The manager is stressing because he probably sees himself only staying a couple of more seasons and so has a relatively short window of opportunity to succeed in his career here so wants to be given as many and as good tools as possible to do so.

On 8/5/2017 at 12:29, charierre said:

Throwing the statement back , it could be asked why other fans feel the need to stress about what others are concerned about? These conversations would traditionally be held in the pub before and after a game. The internet forum though opens up the debate to talk about our team and football in general. Its healthy to get a good mix of opinions, strictly speaking nobody is right or wrong and yes it is all out of our control. Doesn't stop us caring though. 

I'm not saying don't care or don't voice opinions on who we should be targeting etc, I do that myself often enough 

Stressing about it is a different matter entirely.

I think fans often ignore the concept of opportunity cost too.

It's all fine and well if you have definitive targets and can get your priority signings over the line quickly.

But once you start dropping down your list, ie first choice CB can't be gotten, neither can the second choice, then and this is where the transfer market is now, it becomes a game of cat and mouse.

Everybody is now waiting somewhat on what other teams do, as it could mean players that are currently not available suddenly become available.

If you just go ahead and sign your third choice CB target as soon as the first two are dead, then you're penalising youself if a better CB becomes available later in the market but you've already used up the resources for that position and filled the spot in the squad.

Why do you think United haven't signed Perisic yet? Are the club that have spent £700m in the last 3/4 summers suddenly haggling over the reported €5m difference to what Inter want?

No, they're keeping it on hold intentionally hoping that dominos falling elsewhere will lead to a better player becoming available. If that doesn't happen, then they'll pull the trigger on Perisic.

WE WILL SIGN 2/3 MORE PLAYERS, 100%.

We are probably just playing the waiting game, seeing what pops up and if nothing does it wouldn't surprise me if we are already 90% certain of who we will sign in that case.

14 minutes ago, startedwithglenn said:

I think fans often ignore the concept of opportunity cost too.

It's all fine and well if you have definitive targets and can get your priority signings over the line quickly.

But once you start dropping down your list, ie first choice CB can't be gotten, neither can the second choice, then and this is where the transfer market is now, it becomes a game of cat and mouse.

Everybody is now waiting somewhat on what other teams do, as it could mean players that are currently not available suddenly become available.

If you just go ahead and sign your third choice CB target as soon as the first two are dead, then you're penalising youself if a better CB becomes available later in the market but you've already used up the resources for that position and filled the spot in the squad.

Why do you think United haven't signed Perisic yet? Are the club that have spent £700m in the last 3/4 summers suddenly haggling over the reported €5m difference to what Inter want?

No, they're keeping it on hold intentionally hoping that dominos falling elsewhere will lead to a better player becoming available. If that doesn't happen, then they'll pull the trigger on Perisic.

WE WILL SIGN 2/3 MORE PLAYERS, 100%.

We are probably just playing the waiting game, seeing what pops up and if nothing does it wouldn't surprise me if we are already 90% certain of who we will sign in that case.

This makes a great deal of sense.

 

Sadly I just don't think it applies to us. Praying that I am wrong but I am considerably underwhelmed at the moment.

18 minutes ago, startedwithglenn said:

I think fans often ignore the concept of opportunity cost too.

It's all fine and well if you have definitive targets and can get your priority signings over the line quickly.

But once you start dropping down your list, ie first choice CB can't be gotten, neither can the second choice, then and this is where the transfer market is now, it becomes a game of cat and mouse.

Everybody is now waiting somewhat on what other teams do, as it could mean players that are currently not available suddenly become available.

If you just go ahead and sign your third choice CB target as soon as the first two are dead, then you're penalising youself if a better CB becomes available later in the market but you've already used up the resources for that position and filled the spot in the squad.

Why do you think United haven't signed Perisic yet? Are the club that have spent £700m in the last 3/4 summers suddenly haggling over the reported €5m difference to what Inter want?

No, they're keeping it on hold intentionally hoping that dominos falling elsewhere will lead to a better player becoming available. If that doesn't happen, then they'll pull the trigger on Perisic.

WE WILL SIGN 2/3 MORE PLAYERS, 100%.

We are probably just playing the waiting game, seeing what pops up and if nothing does it wouldn't surprise me if we are already 90% certain of who we will sign in that case.

The problem with your argument is that in a scenario you described, if you don't hurry and sign your third option CB and choose to wait, you may very well end up with nothing at all. Let's say, for the sake of an argument United are waiting for better players than Perisic to become available. Who says Inter will wait for them to make a decision? Every club wants to keep their key players and improve and even if they have to sell, they'd rather do it earlier in the window to give themselves a shot at getting a replacement. Top players are arely available at all and selling them late in the window is a bit of a disater for a selling club because of time restraints, problems of buying a replacement on time and other clubs being aware of them having money to spend. It's like a domino effect and if one move can't happen, the rest won't happen either. No club wants to play the musical chairs game and be left standing when the music stops, or in this case when the window closes.

9 minutes ago, abramovich said:

The problem with your argument is that in a scenario you described, if you don't hurry and sign your third option CB and choose to wait, you may very well end up with nothing at all. Let's say, for the sake of an argument United are waiting for better players than Perisic to become available. Who says Inter will wait for them to make a decision? Every club wants to keep their key players and improve and even if they have to sell, they'd rather do it earlier in the window to give themselves a shot at getting a replacement. Top players are arely available at all and selling them late in the window is a bit of a disater for a selling club because of time restraints, problems of buying a replacement on time and other clubs being aware of them having money to spend. It's like a domino effect and if one move can't happen, the rest won't happen either. No club wants to play the musical chairs game and be left standing when the music stops, or in this case when the window closes.

My argument is that once you are past the first couple of priorities in a given position then your scope becomes a lot wider. I mean the difference in ability between options is less and less.

Hypothetically speaking, United would probably be happy with Perisic but they'd also be happy to risk missing out on him if it means there's a higher likelihood they could get a Gareth Bale. If in the end they can't get Bale they have options available to them. They can either choose to sweeten the deal for Inter or simply sign a different player for which the field is a lot wider in terms of choosing. there are a hell of a lot more players in the Perisic bracket of ability than there are in the Bale bracket.

If they had simply signed Perisic weeks ago like they could have easily and Bale now becomes available then they'd be at least partially snookered (maybe not literally United but 99% of clubs). It's always good to leave yourself with options/room to manoeuvre.

It`s good to wait when you know your target players want to leave the club and is pushing to a move, when a club want to sell a player(like we did with Costa, and thats why Ac Milan And Atletico Madrid are waiting) and when player contract is expiring.

But then you also be f**ked. Like happen with Walker. We waited, waited, and waited, and problably thinking of taking this very late and Totheman to not have big chance and sell him for a price of 30m. for example.

But we f**k*** because Man City overtake us, the same they did with Danilo and United did with Lukaku.

So yes whatever you look at it, the board fu**** hard.

 

Cahill is concerned. Conte is concerned. Fans are concerned. I think we have cohesion.

20 hours ago, Chelsbear said:

I don't think we are stronger. Costa gave us goals, we still have to see if Morata can don the same. If he can't give us 20 then it will be weaker. 

Far too simplistic a view. defoe would have given us 20, doesn't mean we'd have been of similar strength.

Ray Wilkins criticises Chelsea's summer dealings and warns Blues could be in for tough season after Arsenal defeat - https://talksport.com/football/ray-wilkins-criticises-chelseas-summer-dealings-and-warns-blues-could-be-tough-season-after

 

 

 

44 minutes ago, evissy said:

Cahill is concerned. Conte is concerned. Fans are concerned. I think we have cohesion.

Not all the fans are concerned.  Some seem to believe all is hunky dory and the squad is set to conquer the league and Europe.

1 hour ago, startedwithglenn said:

My argument is that once you are past the first couple of priorities in a given position then your scope becomes a lot wider. I mean the difference in ability between options is less and less.

Hypothetically speaking, United would probably be happy with Perisic but they'd also be happy to risk missing out on him if it means there's a higher likelihood they could get a Gareth Bale. If in the end they can't get Bale they have options available to them. They can either choose to sweeten the deal for Inter or simply sign a different player for which the field is a lot wider in terms of choosing. there are a hell of a lot more players in the Perisic bracket of ability than there are in the Bale bracket.

If they had simply signed Perisic weeks ago like they could have easily and Bale now becomes available then they'd be at least partially snookered (maybe not literally United but 99% of clubs). It's always good to leave yourself with options/room to manoeuvre.

What makes you think United can sign someone like Perisic any time they want? If Inter says no, it's the end of story. The only way to change their mind is to offer some crazy amount and even then it's not a 100% guarantee. It's the same with any other club with second/third  tier players from what you call 'a wider scope'. I'm afraid it's not as easy as you make it sound. Top clubs like Inter have rich owners and have ambitions of their own, they want to appease their own fans and not be seen as a selling club. Even clubs like Everton or Southampton due to PL TV deal can brush off any attempts to sign their best players with ease and instead look to strengthen themselves (look at Koeman spending like there's no tomorrow). Not to mention how crazy this transfer window is with overprising and if you add all the players' agents/managers/intermediaries looking to get a piece of every deal, it makes things even more complicated.

7 minutes ago, abramovich said:

What makes you think United can sign someone like Perisic any time they want? If Inter says no, it's the end of story. The only way to change their mind is to offer some crazy amount and even then it's not a 100% guarantee. It's the same with any other club with second/third  tier players from what you call 'a wider scope'. I'm afraid it's not as easy as you make it sound. Top clubs like Inter have rich owners and have ambitions of their own, they want to appease their own fans and not be seen as a selling club. Even clubs like Everton or Southampton due to PL TV deal can brush off any attempts to sign their best players with ease and instead look to strengthen themselves (look at Koeman spending like there's no tomorrow). Not to mention how crazy this transfer window is with overprising and if you add all the players' agents/managers/intermediaries looking to get a piece of every deal, it makes things even more complicated.

I'm not saying they can sign perisic whenever they want, i'm saying they can sign a player of similar ability whenever they want. You can't tell me there aren't any obtainable alternatives of a similar ability available for €50m. Outside of the PL and the top 2-3 clubs in Spain, Italy and Germany there are probably about 20 players total that you wouldn't get for €50m.

 

2 hours ago, startedwithglenn said:

Far too simplistic a view. defoe would have given us 20, doesn't mean we'd have been of similar strength.

If those goals helped to win games like Costas goals then yes it would...

If we don't have a striker who will hit those numbers we are weaker because out with Hazard we don't have any player who consistently scores goals 

Edited August 7, 20178 yr by Chelsbear