Defensive liability as a 6, too slow as an 8 and not agile or decisive enough as a 10

I don't want to be too critical of Enzo as he was one of our better performers last night and yet I found myself constantly moaning at his decision making. A couple of badly miss placed passes - I turned to my son and said who was that who gave the ball away? Enzo. Then there was the break where I think Palmer was free on the right, yet he played it to Neto on the left, who was too wide and didn't even get a shot away. And the other time he had Palmer to his right in a good position but he chose to shoot and put it miles over the bar. When I was moaning about him my son said, yes, he's not great but he'll probably pop up with a goal - and of course he did.

Enzo getting picked all the time takes me back to days gone by. Used to get mad when John Hollins started leaving out the likes of Pat Nevin & Micky Hazard, but would play Darren Wood every game. Then years later when Mourinho kept on leaving out Joe Cole and instead would select the more workmanlike Tiago. Boy our coaches have annoyed and frustrated me over the years!!

12 hours ago, Nibs said:

MOTM?

Fair play, he did get an assist and a goal but I also lost count of the times he gave the ball away or picked the pass or shot when he should have passed etc etc.................................

Yawn. Where was Reece, Pedro, Palmer, Caicedo, Cucu?

The only one that turned up in the biggest game of the season and he still gets slagged.

People running agendas and gaslighting

Edited March 13Mar 13 by Deino

18 minutes ago, Deino said:

Yawn. Where was Reece, Pedro, Palmer, Caicedo, Cucu?

The only one that turned up in the biggest game of the season and he still gets slagged.

People running agendas and gaslighting

I agree. While I am not always convinced by Enzo he has been one of our better players this season, and certainly was one of our best performers last night.

9 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

It's becoming tougher to criticise Enzo without getting chewed out by large sections of the fanbase. Is he the biggest problem? no. Does he has positive attributes? yes, his box crashing being the best one and especially in big games, but it's this one attribute that makes him untouchable to large parts of the fanbase. The simple fact is that Enzo's lack of agility is a weakness, alongside his lack of pace, lack of energy levels (always gets tired after 60 minutes and is never subbed off somehow) slow reaction times. All of this results in him being bypassed in midfield, misplacing too many passes and missing an opportunity for a quick early pass to either split the oppositions midfield or pick out a well timed run by an attacking player. He also looks desperate in tight spaces and basically just relies on luck to get himself out of it.

Enzo reminds me of Alonso in a lot of ways. Alonso had some really strong attributes to his game that made him a real asset at times, but he also had glaring weaknesses that would cost us many times over a full season, some of those weaknesses being very similar to Enzo's, like a lack of pace and agility.

Even with that glaring weakness + constantly being shifted around, he's still our 2nd highest G/A producer.

19 minutes ago, Deino said:

Even with that glaring weakness + constantly being shifted around, he's still our 2nd highest G/A producer.

Stats need context. That's part of the problem, because under Maresca the rest of the attack was shifted to accomodate him and he should be in our top 3 G/A producers each season as a bare minimum. With the amount of freedom and the role he was given, his numbers should be closer to 23/24 Cole Palmer, not just above the league average for central midfielders.

The accomodations could be justified if Fernandez's output was on par with Lampard or Fabregas. This is why people criticise players like Enzo or Pedro Neto. No one disputes that they are in their prime but if this is as good as it gets, that's a problem.

Edited March 13Mar 13 by SydneyChelsea

10 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

It's becoming tougher to criticise Enzo without getting chewed out by large sections of the fanbase. Is he the biggest problem? no. Does he has positive attributes? yes, his box crashing being the best one and especially in big games, but it's this one attribute that makes him untouchable to large parts of the fanbase. The simple fact is that Enzo's lack of agility is a major weakness, alongside his lack of pace, lack of energy levels (always gets tired after 60 minutes and is never subbed off somehow) slow reaction times. All of this results in him being bypassed in midfield, misplacing too many passes and missing an opportunity for a quick early pass to either split the oppositions midfield or pick out a well timed run by an attacking player. He also looks desperate in tight spaces and basically just relies on luck to get himself out of it.

Enzo reminds me of Alonso in a lot of ways. Alonso had some really strong attributes to his game that made him a real asset at times, but he also had glaring weaknesses that would cost us many times over a full season, some of those weaknesses being very similar to Enzo's, like a lack of pace and agility.

No player is untouchable -- not even Eden was untouchable for me.
He's a CM made CAM because we don't have a CAM who would indeed rely on agility and pace in the most contested area of the pitch.
He's overplayed because ☝so of course he's tired. Same for Neto, but this forum tends to criticize the players who have to be in poor form as oppose to criticizing the club for not providing options so that players in poor form don't have to play. It think Rosenior is a nobody, but I have a hard time blaming him for all this -- it predates him.

as a CAM, Enzo's role is very different from when he's played in a CM pivot. Some of the complaints I read are unfounded as people expect him to do CM things in a CAM position and Role.

With that out of the way, I think he's not a very good CAM for the exact reasons you listed. It's hardly his fault though. I tend to point to the imbalance in the squad. CAMs need to be amazing in tight spaces, especially at this level -- he's not.

Interesting that you bring Alonso; I think he was a very underrated player by the fanbase. A very interesting player to have in the roster in my book. Again not his fault that the club did not have anyone more rounded (a more traditional LB) to make his use more sporadic and to his strengths.

He's playing CAM because he's proven to have glaring weaknesses as a CM in the pivot, and due to the size of the fee paid and BlueCo's strange desire to have this bloke as the "face" of the club, he has to play somewhere ! KDH has better numbers than Enzo this season, which says it all ...

Edited March 13Mar 13 by Sexyfootball

11 hours ago, Nibs said:

And the other time he had Palmer to his right in a good position but he chose to shoot and put it miles over the bar.

Thats the one that really got my back up, Palmer was completely free to drive into the box, he had got behind his full back and was clear, yet enzo just went all Gerrardy and smashed it way over the bar, its not what a top class player would do, so frustrating.

He obviously has an affinity with the club, he is passionate but he simply isnt good enough in any of the positions he plays. He is the kind of player you can use to get in the box when you have a dominant team, a midfield that can handle itself and allow a player to switch of defensive duties without worries. We absolutely are not that team.

Edited March 13Mar 13 by dkw

5 hours ago, forbzy said:

I agree. While I am not always convinced by Enzo he has been one of our better players this season, and certainly was one of our best performers last night.

He hasnt been one of our best players this season at all, he has had about 3 good games, 2 or 3 decent ones and the rest has had absolutely no influence on whatsoever.

It’s a tough one with Enzo, his price tag was always going hang heavy and there are much bigger problems in our squad than him.

As many have said where does he play, he has problems at 6,8,10. He often feels shoe horned in and with rumours of the board wanting their investments protected fans question whether he is in the team on merit. That is debatable of course everyone has an opinion but what isn’t debatable is there are times when he is clearly blowing out his arse, chasing shadows and he doesn’t get hooked for fresh legs.

I don’t like that, that’s not a team, or what’s best for the team. It’s this I don’t like rather than anything Enzo does or doesn’t do.

But he’s better than Sharon Wood.

Edited March 13Mar 13 by C3blue

The freedom he has he should easily get 15-20 Premier League goals per season but for some reason he prefers to aim for top bins instead of keeping his shots under 8 feet high.

4 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Stats need context. That's part of the problem, because under Maresca the rest of the attack was shifted to accomodate him and he should be in our top 3 G/A producers each season as a bare minimum. With the amount of freedom and the role he was given, his numbers should be closer to 23/24 Cole Palmer, not just above the league average for central midfielders.

The accomodations could be justified if Fernandez's output was on par with Lampard or Fabregas. This is why people criticise players like Enzo or Pedro Neto. No one disputes that they are in their prime but if this is as good as it gets, that's a problem.

What freedom do you mean, he's consistently covering the highest ground for us in majority of matches. Freedom to me would be like Palmer v PSG at CWC where he had minimal defensive duties and was solely the outlet of the press.

6 hours ago, Deino said:

Yawn. Where was Reece, Pedro, Palmer, Caicedo, Cucu?

The only one that turned up in the biggest game of the season and he still gets slagged.

People running agendas and gaslighting

I said it in the match thread but if Enzo had given the ball away the same way James did for their goal this thread would be a lot more active.

5 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Stats need context. That's part of the problem, because under Maresca the rest of the attack was shifted to accomodate him and he should be in our top 3 G/A producers each season as a bare minimum. With the amount of freedom and the role he was given, his numbers should be closer to 23/24 Cole Palmer, not just above the league average for central midfielders.

The accomodations could be justified if Fernandez's output was on par with Lampard or Fabregas. This is why people criticise players like Enzo or Pedro Neto. No one disputes that they are in their prime but if this is as good as it gets, that's a problem.

5 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Thing is, it could be higher if our last season's attack wasn't bottlenecked at Jackson and Neto.

The thing is his current G/A is getting to average Lampard and Fabregas levels. He just hasn't hit Lampard's and Fabregas' best seasons yet. Enzo's just coming into his prime

29 minutes ago, Remodez said:

What freedom do you mean, he's consistently covering the highest ground for us in majority of matches. Freedom to me would be like Palmer v PSG at CWC where he had minimal defensive duties and was solely the outlet of the press.

Yep. Enzo covers way more ground than Lampard and Fabregas. Even in the last game, he ran more than Caicedo, I think people are hyperfocused on his limitations.

People's expected ideal version of Enzo is a hybrid of Kante, Kovacic and Xavi.

1 hour ago, dkw said:

Thats the one that really got my back up, Palmer was completely free to drive into the box, he had got behind his full back and was clear, yet enzo just went all Gerrardy and smashed it way over the bar, its not what a top class player would do, so frustrating.

He obviously has an affinity with the club, he is passionate but he simply isnt good enough in any of the positions he plays. He is the kind of player you can use to get in the box when you have a dominant team, a midfield that can handle itself and allow a player to switch of defensive duties without worries. We absolutely are not that team.

But if it had gone in, you wouldn't celebrate it? Who's to say Palmer scores that?

It's wild to fixate and attach emotions on micro-actions within the game

1 hour ago, Deino said:

Yep. Enzo covers way more ground than Lampard and Fabregas. Even in the last game, he ran more than Caicedo, I think people are hyperfocused on his limitations.

People's expected ideal version of Enzo is a hybrid of Kante, Kovacic and Xavi.

Yep I am starting to appreciate him too, in 28 starts, 5 goals and 3 assists.

Lets remember at times he has played several positions.

He also does not get brow-beaten on the pitch, has a lot of fight in him.

It would be nice if he was faster about the pitch yet still a lot to like.

2 hours ago, Deino said:

But if it had gone in, you wouldn't celebrate it? Who's to say Palmer scores that?

It's wild to fixate and attach emotions on micro-actions within the game

What a very bizarre thing to write, he didnt score, Palmer was 100% the better option than lashing at it, especially as he barely scores any goals form outside the box.

Your desperation to defend your little hero is ridiculous.

2 hours ago, Remodez said:

I said it in the match thread but if Enzo had given the ball away the same way James did for their goal this thread would be a lot more active.

Come on man, your better than that, history has a bearing on how fans react to players.

5 minutes ago, dkw said:

Come on man, your better than that, history has a bearing on how fans react to players.

I think people have been extremely hypercritical of Enzo for reasons that probably go beyond him as a player, i.e Blueco.

I rarely see a balanced take on here, other fans I speak to outside here seems a lot more reasonable in their assessment of him and his time here.

Edited March 13Mar 13 by Remodez

2 minutes ago, Remodez said:

I think people have been extremely hypercritical of Enzo for reasons that probably go beyond him as a player, i.e Blueco.

I rarely see a balanced take on here, other fans I speak to outside here seems a lot more reasonable in their assessment of him and his time here.

It also works both ways, plenty are willing to forgive his poor performances with some quite ridiculous logic, ignore his basic failings. thats football fandom, thats how it always has been and always will be.

Ive said plenty of times on here I think its a shame we dont see more on the pitch from him as he obviously likes the club, he "gets" us (as cringey as that sounds) and has a passion and will to win, but he just doesnt perform anywhere near the level we need, he has some shocking games where he may as well not be on the pitch at all.

The vast majority of his games are average, he doesnt nothing to a high level as far as I can see, his best ability seems to be getting in the box on the end of things, but we simply arent built to accommodate that kind of player, and he really isnt consistently good enough at that to be deserving of being seemingly undroppable.

34 minutes ago, dkw said:

It also works both ways, plenty are willing to forgive his poor performances with some quite ridiculous logic, ignore his basic failings. thats football fandom, thats how it always has been and always will be.

Ive said plenty of times on here I think its a shame we dont see more on the pitch from him as he obviously likes the club, he "gets" us (as cringey as that sounds) and has a passion and will to win, but he just doesnt perform anywhere near the level we need, he has some shocking games where he may as well not be on the pitch at all.

The vast majority of his games are average, he doesnt nothing to a high level as far as I can see, his best ability seems to be getting in the box on the end of things, but we simply arent built to accommodate that kind of player, and he really isnt consistently good enough at that to be deserving of being seemingly undroppable.

That's exactly how I see it.

He has the habit of popping up with goals (which is a great habit to have), but too often, games do seem to pass him by and you need a lot more than that from a player that plays 90 minutes nearly every game and that's before even taking into account the price tag (which I know is not down to him).

Good attitude / team spirit, decent squad player but would like to see him rotated a lot more.

Overpaid on him for sure but there is a sizeable list of issues that are more pressing than him. Has an eye for a goal and a pass which the team isn’t blessed with.

Achilles heel will always be his pace but other slow players have been able to dictate the play from a deeper role which I’ve yet to see from him.

He does get stuck in and is always available which is a massive plus these days considering so many won’t play with a bruised toe.

6 hours ago, Remodez said:

I said it in the match thread but if Enzo had given the ball away the same way James did for their goal this thread would be a lot more active.

The difference is that James has been good throughout most of the season, it's the first big mistake I can remember him making.