Poch In or Out? The Mega-thread Merged

[Whats_The_Mata?]

15 minutes ago, strider6004 said:

Utd perhaps or Italy, I think everyone can see we are in the rebuilding phase with a fan base not understanding with FFP constraints being enforced and salaries lower we will not recruit the best players. 

Means we need to work harder with what we got, we can't just go out and throw a £100m at a player. 

I don't agree we're in the rebuilding phase at all.

A scattergun approach of signing every young player who gets in the fifa team of the week while having no idea what kind of manager to hire isn't any kind of rebuild.

We're in the decline phase with the hope that we can actually develop a coherent strategy to eventually start the rebuild.

[strider6004]

We won't know if it is decline until the seasons end.

12 league matches and an FA Qtr to come.

Still 6 or 7 injuries.

On the plus we have brought through Petrovic, Palmer and Gusto.

We had a dodgy midfield nearly all the time Jorginho was here and Enzo and Caicedo are not impressing either though I never saw Enzo as a DM in a midfield two yet with all midfielders injured we are struggling. 

[Hanzen]

57 minutes ago, Gonoir Beniashile said:

But where else would he go? Bayern are looking to Alonso and I doubt he'd want to kick around the doldrums of the Bundesliga.

Well, there are many other places he'd be able to go TBF. Liverpool, Bayern - and soon enough Real Madrid. Though all will most likely prefer Alonso ATM. 

In regard to Poch and our next move... It seems many are still jumping on the Poch-out train. 
- To some extend I can follow the reasoning. His tactics and game-based strategic approach are yet to be seen. That's a massive issue. 

Still, it's a young team - and it seems he hasn't lost the dressing room.

From time to time we're playing immensely with something that could look like a structure in our pressing and positioning.
But the inconsistancy of the team is absolutely mind-boggling.

In some games it seems like noone really cares what'll happen. Next week we're flying ... for one half at least. 

There are two areas in leeting him go that I'm concerned about. 

1. What's the alternative? 

Hansi Flick? Almost 60 y/o. Only been a first team manager for two clubs; TSG Hoffenheim (2000-2005) and FC Bayern (Nov. 2019-2022).
111 games as a manager since 2006 across Bayern and the German NT. Lastly were he failed misserably. Still he's one of the best options out there right now.

De Zerbi? Definately interesting. Great results at Shaktar Donetsk - not really before that despite a good spell at Sassuolo. Decent start at Brighton ... but in decline. 1.44 PPM this season. Woth noticing he took over a team that was playing extremely well after three years of Potter & co. building up a structurer. Potter wasn't exactly a succes for us, but De Zerbi could turn out different - or exactly the same. 

Xabi Alonso? Would be my pick - but he's probably taking one of either Liverpool or Bayern (or Real Madrid in a year or two). 

Rúben Amorim? Young and quite unproven. But oh my, some results he's had for both Braga and Sporting. While Liga Portugal isn't the best benchmark I'd much rather pay €20-30M for a coach than €100M for a former Coventry player with one good season under his belt in a high tier league.

To summarize, we've already switched around massively. Tuchel, Potter, Lampard and now Poch. Neither has managed to deliver after the new owners came in. 

2. Time/Patience. Can anyone change the situation at the club if they're not given time? 

Noone is given time in Chelsea ... and TBF, 10-15 years ago that made sense with us having world-class players. We'd pay £30-50M and get a proven player from the very top. We have the best players; make them perform. Now we don't.

Look what Brighton build. It took Potter and Brighton 2-3 years of being in the lower half of the league and a clear-out of several players (with as many new coming in) to create a team that ended in the top-half in 21/22. By then you could see a clear system and strategy. Possesion-based, ballplaying football. They just clicked; and the start to 22/23 summarized exactly that. Fast forward two months and he was our new coach - for four months. 

Another example is Liverpool with Klopp or Arteta with Arsenal. It took time. The main difference between those two and Poch is the seeming lack of tactical or strategic output on the field. I'm still yet to be convinced that he has what it takes - but maybe if he's given another year we'll see that. 

Remember, no matter who we're getting in we still have two SDs + Egbali calling all shots at the club. Our striker is still Jackson and the injuries will still be there. 

[Sconnie Blue]

I think Roberto De Zerbi is this generations' Marcelo Bielsa. A footballing purist with a strong arrogance in how football should be played. He's all in. Puts his foot down. Fine tuning every aspect in the build up, structure, and chance creation. As a result, they will either batter teams or get battered themselves. Putting in world acclaimed performances whilst also putting in stubborn performances.

There is also so much speculation in how he will handle himself at a big club with pressure, along with if he even has the ability to alter/change his tactics (which I don't think he does). I don't think he will connect with the fans, much like Sarri didn't. Add the fact he's not a proven winner, which will only have fans immediately jump on him if results go poorly. 

I think this team right now will benefit with a manager with a proven winning background. 

 

 

 

[Nibs]

6 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I think Roberto De Zerbi is this generations' Marcelo Bielsa. A footballing purist with a strong arrogance in how football should be played. He's all in. Puts his foot down. Fine tuning every aspect in the build up, structure, and chance creation. As a result, they will either batter teams or get battered themselves. Putting in world acclaimed performances whilst also putting in stubborn performances.

There is also so much speculation in how he will handle himself at a big club with pressure, along with if he even has the ability to alter/change his tactics (which I don't think he does). I don't think he will connect with the fans, much like Sarri didn't. Add the fact he's not a proven winner, which will only have fans immediately jump on him if results go poorly. 

I think this team right now will benefit with a manager with a proven winning background. 

 

 

 

There aren't many of those about never mind one who would be available.

 

[Sconnie Blue]

7 minutes ago, Nibs said:

There aren't many of those about never mind one who would be available.

 

It's probably why I am leaning towards Amorim, but I think the club pick De Zerbi. 

[Gordon Bennett]

Hansi Flicks last couple of seasons at club level weren't *too* bad I guess...

[Sheva]

I would take Tuchel again when you look at the options available.

Though I don't think any top coach who wants to win and is used to winning trophies accepts this job without the ability to buy proven players.

Edited March 6 by Sheva

[AndyDowsleftflank]

Not only are there few viable alternatives out there, the fact that Liverpool, Bayern and Barcelona are changing managers  this summer means that we are not likely to get who we want. If Poch stays, this might be the reason

[PloKoon13]

5 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

PLEASE

 

I'm fairly sure this guy is just some clueless internet goon rather than a real person, but I would be fine with this as long as the club aren't allowed to sign any players whatsoever during his tenure.

[Zeta]

Inzaghi seems to be doing well. Another one to consider.

[Whats_The_Mata?]

38 minutes ago, PloKoon13 said:

I'm fairly sure this guy is just some clueless internet goon rather than a real person, but I would be fine with this as long as the club aren't allowed to sign any players whatsoever during his tenure.

I'd love Tuchel back but only with full backing,  no point pretending his talent ID would be a problem for us given we've spent a billion pounds on players without managers approval since Boehly bought the club and assembled the least talented squad per pound spent in sporting history.

Any manager that comes in needs to be allowed to sign actual adults and for any decent manager that will be a none negotiable.

No manager of any ability is accepting a project that is guaranteed to fail both long and short term like we are because the owner is obsessed with children and thinks if he buys them all they'll turn into a super team in X number of years.

Edited March 6 by Whats_The_Mata?

[Sconnie Blue]

Just now, Whats_The_Mata? said:

I'd love Tuchel back but only with full backing,  no point pretending his talent ID would be a problem for us given we've spent a billion pounds on players without managers approval since Boehly bought the club and assembled the least talented squad per pound spent in premier league history.

Boehly literally picked out a team based on Tuchel's recommendations. 😂

[Gordon Bennett]

6 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Boehly literally picked out a team based on Tuchel's recommendations. 😂

Yes, but the utter lunatic then sacked Tuchel a week later and spent a billion quid on mediocre teenagers.

[Whats_The_Mata?]

12 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Boehly literally picked out a team based on Tuchel's recommendations. 😂

Obvious you've just made that up.

But if it were true Boehly would be a bigger moron than he already comes across as signing players based on the recommendations of a guy that said he didn't want to be involved in transfers who he sacked as soon as his first transfer window ended.

Very eager to see the hoops you jump through to explain why our backwards transfer policy is Tuchels fault 2 years and 3 managers after he left the club.

Edited March 6 by Whats_The_Mata?

[Sconnie Blue]

4 minutes ago, Whats_The_Mata? said:

Obvious you've just made that up.

But if it were true Boehly would be a bigger moron than he already comes across as signing players based on the recommendations of a guy that said he didn't want to be involved in transfers who he sacked as over a year ago.

Very eager to see the hoops you jump through to explain why our backwards transfer policy is Tuchels fault 2 years and 3 managers after he left the club.

 Can you stick with one argument instead of the constant filibusters? 

What was being reported all summer from several credible reporting outlets such as Romano, the Athletic and Telegraph? That Boehly would be acting sporting director working directly with Tuchel to go after his targets. Sterling, Cucurella, Aubemeyang, Kounde, De Ligt, Koulibaly, Raphina, etc all of these were players Tuchel wanted and all of which that we signed, were poor/sh*t, and the others that we didn't signed have also looked poor at their parent clubs. 

So your argument that Tuchel's talent ID isn't sh*t because Boehly bought those players without his permission, is... excuse my French.... horse sh*t. 

[Whats_The_Mata?]

14 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

 Can you stick with one argument instead of the constant filibusters? 

What was being reported all summer from several credible reporting outlets such as Romano, the Athletic and Telegraph? That Boehly would be acting sporting director working directly with Tuchel to go after his targets. Sterling, Cucurella, Aubemeyang, Kounde, De Ligt, Koulibaly, Raphina, etc all of these were players Tuchel wanted and all of which that we signed, were poor/sh*t, and the others that we didn't signed have also looked poor at their parent clubs. 

So your argument that Tuchel's talent ID isn't sh*t because Boehly bought those players without his permission, is... excuse my French.... horse sh*t. 

No.  It might be hard for you to understand. But the point is quite clearly that the recruitment has been significantly worse after Tuchel.

Tuchel didn't sign Mudryk, Madueke, both Monaco's struggling centre backs, 27 Brazilian and Venezulean teenagers at £20m each, Ughochogu, Chukuwmeka, Sanchez, Fofana the ghosts of Lavia or Nkunku or want to spend £115m on Caciedo and £108m for Enzo while we've had f**king Broja and then Jackson up front.

Top level squad building.

Tuchel openly didn't want to be involved with recruitment and the fact he's being criticised for players the owner failed to sign (who then signed worse players instead) and signings that he didn't get to work with is ridiculous, we don't know how good Sterling who started well under Tuchel and Auba would have been because the manager he openly wanted to play under again was sacked days after signing him and he ended up playing under one of the premier leagues all time worst attacking coaches.  Auba's  Doing alright now though.

Edited March 6 by Whats_The_Mata?

[Victor90]

10 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

 Can you stick with one argument instead of the constant filibusters? 

What was being reported all summer from several credible reporting outlets such as Romano, the Athletic and Telegraph? That Boehly would be acting sporting director working directly with Tuchel to go after his targets. Sterling, Cucurella, Aubemeyang, Kounde, De Ligt, Koulibaly, Raphina, etc all of these were players Tuchel wanted and all of which that we signed, were poor/sh*t, and the others that we didn't signed have also looked poor at their parent clubs. 

So your argument that Tuchel's talent ID isn't sh*t because Boehly bought those players without his permission, is... excuse my French.... horse sh*t. 

As a Tuchel fanboy even I'll admit Tuchel's talent ID is pretty poor, just like Conte. And similar to Conte he seems to have issues with the boardroom wherever he goes. But the whole Tuchel/Boehly situation makes Clearlake look worse if anything, even if they were all Tuchels signings, why on earth would you even do that then sack him after you've signed all his targets? It just looks incredibly shortsighted when we're talking about hundreds of millions at stake. 

The reality is we don't know all the ins and outs of the transfer saga, we can only speculate. Who's to say Auba wasn't a last resort at the time? We don't really know. All I do know is that we haven't been anywhere near that level under Tuchel since we got rid of him. And by the looks of it, we're a long way from it, some could say we'll never reach that level again. 

[Sconnie Blue]

Just now, Whats_The_Mata? said:

No.  It might be hard for you to understand. But the point is quite clearly that the recruitment has been significantly worse after Tuchel.

Tuchel didn't sign Mudryk, Madueke, both Monaco's struggling centre backs, 27 Brazilian and Venezulean teenagers at £20m each, Ughochogu, Chukuwmeka, Sanchez, Fofana the ghosts of Lavia or Nkunku or want to spend £115m on Caciedo and £108m for Enzo while we've had f**king Broja and then Jackson up front.

Top level squad building.

and the fact he's being criticised for players the owner failed to sign (who then signed worse players instead) and signings that he didn't get to work with is ridiculous, we don't know how good Sterling who started well under Tuchel and Auba would have been because the manager they openly wanted to play under again was sacked days after signing him and he ended up playing under one of the premier leagues all time worst attacking coaches.  Auba's  Doing alright now though.

More filibusters. 

I don't give a sh*t about Mudryk, Madueke, Badiashile, etc. This was after Tuchel. I am commenting on your ridiculous statement that Boehly bought players for Tuchel without his permission. In some sort of brazen defence that Tuchel's talent ID wasn't sh*t when in reality your comment was a flat out lie. 

Sterling was and always has been a frustrating player and Pep kicked up no fuss letting him leave.  Raphinha? sh*t. Kounde? sh*t. De Ligt? The player Tuchel initially wanted before Koulibaly. Been comical in defence for Bayern and Tuchel now says he doesn't trust him. 

But hey, Aubameyang is doing all right. Yet he is being outscored by Johnathan David who no top club in Europe apparently wants to touch.

[Whats_The_Mata?]

27 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

More filibusters. 

I don't give a sh*t about Mudryk, Madueke, Badiashile, etc. This was after Tuchel. I am commenting on your ridiculous statement that Boehly bought players for Tuchel without his permission. In some sort of brazen defence that Tuchel's talent ID wasn't sh*t when in reality your comment was a flat out lie. 

Sterling was and always has been a frustrating player and Pep kicked up no fuss letting him leave.  Raphinha? sh*t. Kounde? sh*t. De Ligt? The player Tuchel initially wanted before Koulibaly. Been comical in defence for Bayern and Tuchel now says he doesn't trust him. 

But hey, Aubameyang is doing all right. Yet he is being outscored by Johnathan David who no top club in Europe apparently wants to touch.

At no point have I said Tuchel has good talent ID. I've simply stated the fact that the owners recruitment strategy is objectively worse as shown by all the crap they've filled our squad with and any manager that comes in has to be in control of transfers.

Our terrible recruitment over the last 2 years that gets worse every window is being driven solely from the top not the manager because it isn't a transfer policy anyone involved in football would ever support.

Funny comment on Sterling though given Pep openly wanted him to stay and City offered him a new contract. Neither Pep or City beg anyone to stay. Same with Palmer, Laporte, Mahrez, Jesus, Gundogan, Zinchenko, Aguero etc if a player wants to leave they just replace them with another quality player.

You can be like that when you've got a team of winners hired from the world's biggest clubs involved in player recruitment rather than trying some nonsensical lucky dip scattergun approach signing dross in 3rd rate leagues at £20m a pop.

Edited March 6 by Whats_The_Mata?

[Sconnie Blue]

1 minute ago, Whats_The_Mata? said:

At no point have I said Tuchel has good talent ID.

 

1 hour ago, Whats_The_Mata? said:

I'd love Tuchel back but only with full backing,  no point pretending his talent ID would be a problem for us

Have a good day. 

[Whats_The_Mata?]

3 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

 

Have a good day. 

Struggling to read and taking sentences out of context?

Another clown for the ignore list

Though if anyone thinks Tuchels recruitment would hold back this potential winning machine Boehly has built you can't help but laugh.

 

Edited March 6 by Whats_The_Mata?

[Victor90]

4 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

 

Have a good day. 

That's not saying he has good talent ID though? Just that it wouldn't be a problem for us based on board signings since.. And he's probably right since hindsight is a bitch. 

[Sheva]

1 hour ago, Sconnie Blue said:

More filibusters. 

I don't give a sh*t about Mudryk, Madueke, Badiashile, etc. This was after Tuchel. I am commenting on your ridiculous statement that Boehly bought players for Tuchel without his permission. In some sort of brazen defence that Tuchel's talent ID wasn't sh*t when in reality your comment was a flat out lie. 

Sterling was and always has been a frustrating player and Pep kicked up no fuss letting him leave.  Raphinha? sh*t. Kounde? sh*t. De Ligt? The player Tuchel initially wanted before Koulibaly. Been comical in defence for Bayern and Tuchel now says he doesn't trust him. 

But hey, Aubameyang is doing all right. Yet he is being outscored by Johnathan David who no top club in Europe apparently wants to touch.

Good talent ID? You just reeled off players who were at times the best players in their respective leagues and players who were wanted by many many top clubs not just us. 
 

Tuchel had his problems but the mismanagement of signings fall on the owner not the manager. We replaced half the squad and expected them to blend in from the get go and get results. 
 

Nothing to do with talent id, it’s more to do with the environment for the player and the personality of the player. It also takes time for players to settle into a new country and league. Instead of sticking with a few we sold them off as fast as we could. They could of easily performed under stable ownership and management.

Edited March 6 by Sheva

[Sheva]

Raphina - One of the best players in the league during that season and was wanted by Arsenal, Barcelona and us.
Koulibaly - Along side VVD was considered the best centreback in the world for many years and we just lost Rudiger.
Kounde - A long term target and we wanted him when Lampard was in charge.
Sterling - One of the best players in the league for city
Cucurella - Brightons player of the year and also a City target
Auba - A last ditch signing because we failed to sign a striker and he was a quick option.

Are we going to say Pep, Arteta and others have no 'Talent I.D'. It's such a circumstancial thing to say.

Tuchels main problem is simply just keeping in the good books of the ownership. It was also widly reported that he wanted Anthony Gordon and most of us laughed at it, look at Gordon now.
 

Edited March 6 by Sheva