So do we get consistency on the Shed End

[loz]

After an atrocious performance at home against Burnley in the league cup I find myself wondering what has happened to those who were so willing to put Avram Grant's head on a spike last year. Last season I recall Grant being given absolutely no time whatsoever to prove doubters wrong and I recall him being hammered mercilessly for every poor result and every poor performance with the players, time and time again, being excused and the blame being placed at Grant's inability to motivate them.

So far this season I would say Scolari has proven himself no more of a tactician than Grant, no more capable of motivating players than Grant and certainly no more capable of preparing teams for different types of game than Grant; however so far I only really count Bluebeard as a poster who has been willing to show consistency in his criticism. So what has happened to the rest of the Grant haters?

[byatt]

good post loz, its so easy to blame the man in charge rather than the players on the pitch, although i think both players and management should take blame from tonights result and performance

[BlueBeard]

Bring back The Doc!

[Lofty]

Players, managers, Kenyon, who cares? That's at least 4 inexcusably sh*te results/performances this season - add Liversh*te, N17Scum and Roma away, the last two of whom were having piss-poor season, morale at a low ebb and were there for the taking.

As should have been Burnley.

[PloKoon13]

Well we are still top of the league and top of our Champions League group.

Who in the Premiership has played better than us this season... we've had four bad games? And we've only lost two of those... in normal time, at least.

Arsenal have lost to Stoke, Hull and Fulham and are completely inconsistent and don't have a solid leader to rely on.

Man Utd haven't looked great either, they've lost twice and have (Like us, I must admit...) looked less than convincing against good opposition. The promises of their blistering attack seem to be premature.

Dippers have ridden their luck all season. I've seen them put in one good performance, and that was against Man Utd. A mixture of poor decisions and deflected goals has seen them keep up with us somehow. Even against us they weren't that good... they just got lucky and we couldn't get it in.

[Chippy]

You know my views on this,

I think Grant got a very raw deal and was disliked more for the way people believed (rightly or wrongly) he got the Job than the Job he was doing,

After a couple of very hard games with some genuine bad luck against M Utd and Arsenal it was said he couldn't beat the big teams unyet he turned those results round and we put in a good run in the league unyet he got no respect,

we were a Banana skin from being European Champions and we were runners up in another two competitions.

I believe he was getting it right and I believe we would be a better team this season had he been given the summer to bring players in, I think he was getiing a mix between the Mourinho style (too defensive for my liking) and what we have now (fullbacks blazing forward and if it go's right...goals).

He made mistakes and motivation sometimes looked missing but he also had Ten Cate thrust upon him and he the chants of you dont know what your doing to contend with,

this must have given the players less faith in a man that had come in after the most succesful manager in Chelseas history and can't have helped his cause.

If he had have had the support Scolari has had I am sure the confidence of him and the players would have been higher and it could have all gone a lot better.

As I have said though I dont think a change here will help, for me Grant is never coming back and for 70% of the forum nor is Mourinho, we now have a manager that is proven

at World level and is still learning, because I believe managers never stop learning and need to change what they have learned to stay on top.

on what we saw again tonight he has a lot to learn.

[Lofty]

I'm not actually that interested in any other teams problems or otherwise. Not as a point of comparison anyway. The Arse have lost badly, Liversh*te have ridden their luck, the Mancs haven't hit any kind of form ... none of this excuses how poor we're cabable of being.

Fact is, when we've won this season, we've often done so with some style, hence the goal difference, but this has always been against either piss-poor opposition, and/or teams who over-estimated their chances against us. But when we've f**ked up .. boy have we f**ked up. And we've f**ked up four times already.

[icecoolguy22]

The problem I had with Grant was the way he got the job in the first place. Many of us pointed fingers at him for the wrong signings and Jose's downfall. Looking back, he adopted Jose's players and formation, kept it simple . His result was not bad , couple of inches away from winning us a first ever European Title, lost out on the title by goal differences ( in truth), only because the dividing Ronaldo had hell of a season ( wont be repeated anytime soon), the FA cup shocker really killed him, that was one cup we had a real chance to win . He never got the respect of the players ,fans and the board, in the end it was easy to cut him loose. So far Scolari is no better than Grant, sure we plugned in plenty of goals, but the majority of us would have prefered a few more points. The fans have too much respect for Scolari to chant ' you dont know what you are doing' for now, but he better lift his game up.

[ethicalstrategy]

I'm quite happy to give Scolari sh*t for some of our recent defeats. Particularly against Roma when he did a major "Ranieri". Tonight he didn't seem to know what he was trying to do with the team he sent out. Whilst it should have been good enough to beat Burnley there was no obvious logic to it. His substitutions were a bit weird too. Why not bring on Woods when Belletti was injured? Why replace Deco with Mikel? And why not get aleast one of Malouda or Kalou off when they were anonymous?

The big question is are these just teething problems as he gets us playing a new, exciting, all conquering brand of football or are we just becoming flat track bullies who will end up trophyless and bitter like Arsenal?

On the evidence so far I think it more likely to be the latter.

And Grant was useless too.

[Chippy]

I'm quite happy to give Scolari sh*t for some of our recent defeats. Particularly against Roma when he did a major "Ranieri". Tonight he didn't seem to know what he was trying to do with the team he sent out. Whilst it should have been good enough to beat Burnley there was no obvious logic to it. His substitutions were a bit weird too. Why not bring on Woods when Belletti was injured? Why replace Deco with Mikel? And why not get aleast one of Malouda or Kalou off when they were anonymous?

The big question is are these just teething problems as he gets us playing a new, exciting, all conquering brand of football or are we just becoming flat track bullies who will end up trophyless and bitter like Arsenal?

On the evidence so far I think it more likely to be the latter.

And Grant was useless too.

When you say useless too does that mean you think Scolari is useless ?

or do you think it is only fair to give Scolari a season before you can make a fair comment?

[ethicalstrategy]

Go on then, I'll bite!

Grant was never good enough for the job and I give him very little credit for what we did or didn't achieve last season. I wish he had never been appointed in the first place but I never wanted him to go during the season. That didn't, of course, stop me criticising him as you know , although never at a match I might add.

When Scolari was appointed I didn't really know whether he was the right man or not. He did have a track record of success though so I was open minded about it - much more so than with Grant.

Having now had the opportunity to observe at first hand what he is like I'm not all that impressed. Early results and performances were promising but we have evidence now that he isn't very tactically astute and that he doesn't seem to be able to change the course of matches that aren't going our way. I don't hold the Liverpool match against him too much because that could have happened under Grant or Mourinho, but the Roma loss was particularly poor tactically.

I don't advocate changing managers now. That would be crazy. But I am happy to throw some criticism his way where deserved. Tonight I actually think it was more the players who should shoulder the blame - there were some stinkers out there - but if there was complacency, and there seemed to be, then that is up to the manager to sort.

So I hope I'm being consistent in my intolerance of managerial failings to satisfy Loz!

[Chippy]

Go on then, I'll bite!

Grant was never good enough for the job and I give him very little credit for what we did or didn't achieve last season. I wish he had never been appointed in the first place but I never wanted him to go during the season. That didn't, of course, stop me criticising him as you know :) , although never at a match I might add.

When Scolari was appointed I didn't really know whether he was the right man or not. He did have a track record of success though so I was open minded about it - much more so than with Grant.

Having now had the opportunity to observe at first hand what he is like I'm not all that impressed. Early results and performances were promising but we have evidence now that he isn't very tactically astute and that he doesn't seem to be able to change the course of matches that aren't going our way. I don't hold the Liverpool match against him too much because that could have happened under Grant or Mourinho, but the Roma loss was particularly poor tactically.

I don't advocate changing managers now. That would be crazy. But I am happy to throw some criticism his way where deserved. Tonight I actually think it was more the players who should shoulder the blame - there were some stinkers out there - but if there was complacency, and there seemed to be, then that is up to the manager to sort.

So I hope I'm being consistent in my intolerance of managerial failings to satisfy Loz!

I admire your consistency if not your ability to give a man credit for a decent Job done,

I dont think anybody can expect a manager to get everything right 3 months into a season and would be discusted (as I was when Grant was sacked) if there was any thought from Roman about getting rid of Scolari.

I do though think he has shown less in the games so far than Grant did and we hear nobody putting his good results down to the players,

It's hard I know but surely when you can see what a Job Scolari is having it would be possible to think back and see that Grant was a lot better than he was given credit for.

I wonder why we (you and me) only converse when Grant is involved...hows the misus? whats your favourite colour?

[ethicalstrategy]

I don't think one man's failings makes up for another! And it is still early days for Scolari. The proof of the pudding is etc, etc, so let's see if we do end up winning anything this year. I'm not at all sure we will.

In answer to your other questions - asleep and blue

[The Moos]

I think I must have been one of the people who criticized Grant the most. I seem to recall that I called him loads of stuff here.

But while I still think that he's not a great manager, I have to admit that he didn't do to badly. He proved me wrong.

With Scolari I thought we'd have a world class manager, but so far I've been slightly disappointed.

Yes, we do score more goals, but so far only against "weak" teams.

He hasn't shown that he can change the game in any way or even outsmart the opponents when it comes to tactics.

When the opponents play a strong defence, we're sc*ewed. We need a lucky first goal to have a chance at winning.

And the way we've lost isn't encouraging either. I can take a loss if we were unlucky or if the opponents simply were better. But to see Chelsea walk onto a pitch and then do nothing - it's just not okay. If we're going to lose, then I atleast want to see some heart.

I like the attacking and fun-to-watch football Scolari has brought, but that's just one thing and I'm missing loads of other stuff.

Look at Mourinho. It wasn't beautiful football (unless you like a defensive and hard working style) but we more often than not got a result and I can't remember too many games were we didn't give 100%. If we played bad in the first half then we would more often than not see an entirely different team in the 2nd half.

We don't get that with Scolari. If we play good in the first half we might play good in the second. If we play bad in the first half, we will play bad in the second too.

According to some of the players Scolari can be a really tough guy who can put his foot down, but either he hasn't done it in a game yet or else it just doesn't work. Maybe he's doing it wrong.

I don't think we should sack Scolari though. Maybe he just needs time to settle in. And maybe all the injuries have made it difficult for him.

But we need someone on the bench who can make the team work harder. And if Scolari doesn't improve then maybe we should change manager after this season.

I hope Scolari can prove us all wrong and become the brilliant manager we had hoped for.

P.S. I might be wrong, but as the captain I think JT needs to work harder. Not only hasn't he been as great as he used to be, but he isn't leading his team as he used to. He used to be the man who could make his team wake up and work harder, but he doesn't seem to do it anymore. I might be wrong or else nobody listen to him anymore :mellow:

[TheWestwayWonder]

Moos makes a good point. IN GAME there doesn't really seem to be a vast difference under Scolari. That is something that infuriates me as much as the next person and that I cant explain. To me, that is the single biggest thing Scolari needs to work on. He cant just expect to throw on Belletti into our midfield and a goal to be forthcoming. That is a problem with our squad because we simply dont have the kind of players to "change a game around" to call upon on our bench.

That said, I will spell out the difference between LFS and Grant is one thing: Grant was a walk on who was handed the job in hard times. I expected him to be replaced within a month after Jose left.

LFS is a world cup winner who has (contrary to whoever claimed it) motivated some of our players to play the best they have in their chelsea career, and put us at the top of the domestic league with a +22 (!!!!!!!) goal difference with a quarter of the season to go. Who among us would have ever imagined this a year ago? We were used to the dour, efficient team that had steamrolled its way to 2 league titles under Mourinho. LFS is always pushing our players into attack. Sometimes we win and sometimes we lose but we are winning far more than we are losing and we are seeing some entertaining football.

The problem is our squad. Its not deep enough and its not got the kind of players that can turn a game around. Roman cannot simply go from spending 20 million on auxiliary wingers to forcing a new manager to fight for scraps like Miniero. That is too much of a system shock, and lets face it, we have older players who are going to need replacing soon. He needs to be allowed to supplement and expand his squad to the one that he wants, within financial reason, so that we have options in games like these. Rather than put a moratorium on spending which we seem to be doing, we should be investing in young talent that will be there for years rather than just say "no, all buying has to be stopped". This is a top team in the most cash bloated league in the world. Thats just unrealistic.

For the record, I thought Grant did a good job while he was here, but I was never confident when he was in charge because he seemed bereft of ideas, and most of our compelling wins or turnarounds seemed to be inspired on the shoulders of the players. And that was not from everyone, but from the squad backbone: Essien, Drogba, Lampard, Cole, etc.

LFS is a motivator. On most days we go out and roll an opposition team easily because everyone is firing at or close to full capacity. MALOUDA? Malouda was the whipping boy last year. He has as many goals already as all of last year. If you need more proof, look at Anelka. Look at A Cole. Look at Kalou.

The fixtures have not been that bad either. We were dire against Spuds. We scraped a draw against Man Utd but there was no shame in it because I felt like we earned that point. We should not have lost to Liverscum imo, because they never really got to us all game, just frustrated for 90 minutes. Aston Villa, a team that is very well built, were throttled when they came to the Bridge.

all im saying is, things are not really as bad as they seem, and i refuse to give into a knee jerk reaction. We lost the game we did today, imo because we dont have stronger reserves to call upon. But im glad we were playing reserves, because I dont care about this competition enough anymore. We have continually overemphasized it and I think its time we put stock, especially with such a small squad, in other areas.

[loz]

For the record I am not for one minute saying I think Scolari should be replaced. I don't think Grant was given anything like enough time before people were ripping him apart and I am not about to dd to Scolari what I criticised people for ding to Grant.

There has been some clear weaknesses in Scolari and they have been repeated errors rather than one offs and the concern I have is that, at his age, there is only a slim chance he is going to change however I am more than prepared to give him time to settle in to the country and ompose himeslf upon the squad.

My point was really slightly flippant - just humming and hahhing about quite how much vitriol would have been hurled at Grant if he has lost to Liverpool, lost to Burnley, lost to Roma and only drawn at home with Spurs. It would have been ferocious and the fact that many of those who would have hurled it don't appear to be doing so to Grant does suggest they were never ever prepared to give Grant a chance for entirely non football reasons.

[Tim W]

The whole Grant-gate was a management cock up from day one, the ugliness of Mourinho's demise, the initial appointment of the man against the manager's wishes, his promotion to the manager's job and, in my eyes, his lack of credentials for the job and the little effort to obtain the necessary badges. I believed then and still do believe the players and Clarke ran the show, decided to keep JM's playing style, etc hence the results, but without a true guiding hand they didn't quite make it. With Scolari they see a man who has been there, done it got the T-shirt and like the sheep they are they follow. But Scolari's success was a life time ago, the game has moved on, but he has stood still, and Kenyon and Buck in their blindness picked a man purely on his CV. And all this while we could have had Sparky Hughes building for the future, probably still losing, but at least we would be heading in the right direction.

[bjd]

Grant should never have got the job. But im beginning to worry about Scolari. The signs have been there for a few weeks now.

I think we are going to find out a lot more about him in two weeks. We have our biggest week of the season - Bordeaux away and Arsenal at home. Defeat in either is simply not an option. I wont be saying any more on the subject untill then, he is allowed a one off defeat in a knockout cup competition, but these two games are massive. Barring Essien he should have a full squad to pick from too.

Edited November 13, 2008 by bjd

[Nibs]

I think the main difference was that Grant was always onto a loser, which was due to a whole combination of things. He was relatively unknown and coming in to replace the most successful and charismatic manager we’ve ever had. He was very dour most of the time – hard to warm to and lets face it, he often had the appearance of the weird bloke who lives down the end of your road. Despite coming within a gnats knob of winning the Champions League, the fact is he was never gonna be right – even if many of the reasons are not particularly footballing ones.

Scolari on the other hand is well.....................well he’s Big Phil isn’t he. He looks more the part has some big trophies on his CV and everyone loves the guy. Sort of.

The football at times has been as good if not better than anything I have seen since I’ve been watching Chelsea play –at times it really has been exceptional. Grant promised better football but despite okay results, he really never delivered on the good football. Scolari has. BUT (and I cannot emphasize enough the hugeness of that BUT), it is very worrying how we can go from playing great football one game to looking so, so poor in such a short space of time. There is work to be done and lots of it and only time will tell how good (or not) Scolari turns out to be.

If we end up without any silverware come the end of the season, it will be interesting to see if he still gets the backing from the powers that be.

Edited November 13, 2008 by Nibs

[coco]

I reckon we would have done just as well last season (and this season) without a manager at all.

Sack Scolari and make JT and Lampard joint player/managers, should see us ok for a manager for another 30-40 years.

I was willing to side with Scolari until i was convinced on the pitch he isnt good enough, last night i became almost convinced.

Deco should never of played, Malouda should NEVER play again, Ferriera still with us ? wtf ? Di Santo should of started WITH Drogba.

But most worrying of all, Scolari's team selection and tactics.....SHOCKING !!

[Tea Bar Boy]

Okay my thoughts on Grant and Big Phil .

Grant was always on a hiding to nothing after JM good PR from the club in my book you could have put Fergie , Wenger and Tommy Doc in last year and they would have all got the same response post JM . The main differences I see is that under Grant we were very badly prepared, very poor organization, too many leaders on the pitch all trying too hard. Agreed he did not have a pre season to work with the players but saw no evidence of any work he did on the training ground. The Carling Cup stands out for me where he got it very, very wrong in his selection and handling of players who did not play.

Big Phil is turning us into a bit of a Le Arse mark 2 at the moment . As someone pointed out we batter lesser teams but come unstuck against well organized teams with a set game plan. I don’t see he ever has a plan B up his sleeve or players to come on to change a game .

On the plus side I do think we are much better organized and when we stick to plan A and it works all is good . Only 4 goals conceded in the league is something to be proud of and shows how the team are defending well as a unit .

Le Arse is the big game for me and a must win if we are going to land the league this year . If we don’t get a win here it will leave us having to win at least 2 of Liverpool , Man Utd or Le Arse away

[bjd]

Le Arse is the big game for me and a must win if we are going to land the league this year . If we don’t get a win here it will leave us having to win at least 2 of Liverpool , Man Utd or Le Arse away

Cant agree more TBB. Massive game for the club and for BPS. We simply have to win it.

Have a look at our away fixtures from Jan onwards to see why. Old Trafford, White Hart Lane, Villa Park, Anfield, Emirates. At this moment how many points would you bet us getting in those 5 games ?

[octville]

Scolari, like Grant, does not have good track record against the top teams.

He lost our invincible 4-yr old home record twice within the space of a month.

He has not even achieved a win at home against Liverpool (we lost 0-1, totally inconceivable),

Spurs (when they were playing like school kids), Manure (we were lucky to snatch a draw!) and

now Burnley.

And 3 defeats in less than 1 month (0-1 Liverpool, 1-3 Roma & 4-5 penalty shootout to Burnley) is just

too much because we have set high standards during Grant/ Mourinho and Scolari was supposed to be

our midas touch, not archilles' heel !

Please spare me the crap on injuries ( no Ballack, Essien, Ashley Cole, Carvalho and recently, Drogba) but

we are simply playing like the crazy Brazilian - one game great, another crap.

While we were a delight at times to watch with our passing, Anelka & Malouda having their form of their life,

but we cannot exactly say that we are tops when pitted against the best.

I don't care about style, just give me wins, wins, wins against top opposition. Against Liverpool, why did not

we sit back and hold possession instead of letting Liverpool drew first blood?

And when can we finally ever win a penalty shootout?

One last thing - Mineiro is like another Geremi, but he is jinxed ! I cannot remember the last time we win when he plays.

So Scolari, sort it out ! It is ok to draw...but defeat is not tolerable.

I am starting to be a crybaby, crying out for the Special One to return !

[Tea Bar Boy]

Cant agree more TBB. Massive game for the club and for BPS. We simply have to win it.

Have a look at our away fixtures from Jan onwards to see why. Old Trafford, White Hart Lane, Villa Park, Anfield, Emirates. At this moment how many points would you bet us getting in those 5 games ?

Well on current away form no sweat !! Reality very worried .

[heckel]

I really don't understand this. Chelsea fans have become accustomed to miracles. Scolari has been doing a fantastic job - much better than Mourinho at Inter, who has had several poor results with a side that has dominated Italian football for the past two seasons. Sure Grant had success, but it came from a severly cautious attitude 'do what Mourinho said - now do it some more'. He clearly didn't have the confidence of the players. How many complained when he was sacked? A single player?

Since arriving, Scolari has quickly won over the players, the press, *most* fans, has swiftly changed our style of playing, has got the most out of players like Lampard, Mikel, and Joe Cole (when fit); has got our fullbacks involved in attacking play and has created a system in which a fairly out of form Anelka has already scored 10 PL goals (mostly with Kalou and Malouda as support strikers!). I think too many people play football management computer games in which one just pulls a bunch of strings on match day and wins from unlikely positions. The Roma loss was a disaster, and the players and management admitted this - but a draw with SPurs, an unlucky loss to Liverpool and a loss on penalties in a meaningless cup are not big issues for me when we've been adjusting to a new playing system and managerial structure.

I appreciate that these internet forums create a fetish for counter-intuitive positions (such as those of Chippy and Qaz on Grant) to generate debate and interest, but any comparison between Grant, who is struggling to find employment, and Scolari is absurd.