737 replies to this topic

[just]

Zola You Beauty, on 06 February 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

Why do I feel(and I hate to say this) that Sturridge is taking the role of Drogba very well, selfish and whining all the time.

Quite sad. Yet another Chelsea fan who, despite everything the man has helped us achieve, is a fully paid up member of the "We Hate Drogba" brigade.

Congratulations. Your badge is in the post.

[Lane]

just, on 06 February 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

Quite sad. Yet another Chelsea fan who, despite everything the man has helped us achieve, is a fully paid up member of the "We Hate Drogba" brigade.

i dont think it counts as 'help' if hes paid ridiculous money. jus sayin . . .

[Saaladin]

Zeta Orionis, on 05 February 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Tbh I was much more nervous at 3-1 up than at 0-0, because I just knew we'd f**k it up, we're so predictable it hurts. There were fleeting signs of improvement, but let's face it, 2 of the goals we scored were Man Utd own goals 9I think Luiz's was heading wide probably). The swansea goal was an own goal. We are really struggling to actually get on the score sheet ourselves in recent weeks, and we still looking susceptible every time the opposition come forward.

A draw before the kcikoff would have been a good result, but the manner in which we got 1 point is just not good enough. Arsenal won comfrtoably, Newcastle won, I can't remember what Liverpool did, but the teams above us are moving further away and the teams below us are getting ever closer.

Worrying times.

I don't consider those 2 goals as your basic own-goal. Sturridge beat Evra badly on that play and forced the cross in low and hard which gave Evans no choice in the matter. He basically used Evans as a backboard. That's a clean goal for me.

As for the second, Luiz is accurate with his headers and from the part of his head he hit it with and its subsequent flight it looked marked for the bottom far corner. Just because Ferdinand gets a piece of it doesn't mean its an own goal. Luiz did everything right to force that situation. Luck has nothing to do with it.

[The Moos]

loz, on 06 February 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

I have been largely offline for the past 48 hours so not read the response to the game and don't have the heart to go through it all as I imagine there was much gnashing of teeth!

My take on it was that whilst the Ivanovic penalty was incredibly soft we really shouldn't be throwing away a 3-0 lead at home.  We were lacking experience out ther and it showed badly.  Nobody seemed to know how to calm the game and shut it down. We panicked and endlessly gave Man Utd time and possession and it was no surprise to me or anyone in the pub I was in (including the neutrals) when Utd turned it round.

I thought Mata and Ivan were superb. Malouda was shockingly poor and Sturridge only marginally better.  That said I didn't agree with Sturridge going off as I thought Malouda should have as I still feel Sturridge gave us a glimpse of a hope of another goal (although defensively he offered nothing)

I would have taken a point at the start of the game but obiously when you are 3-0 up it is a blow to only come away with one however I think one is all we really deserved.

The thing is, we had experience on the pitch yesterday.
Malouda is over 30, has played loads of big games and is in the national team. Cech has 7-8 years with Chelsea, playing for the title almost every season.
Torres. Not old perhaps, but he's been a star for a very long time. Essien has experience as well.
And Ivanovic isn't really that inexperienced.

We shouldn't need experience on every position to win a game. If so, we might as well scrap our youth team because they will never be experienced enough to play for us.
Perhaps what we were lacking was a leader. Someone - eperienced or not - on the pitch who could bring the team together.

Even so, with all the talent we had out there throwing away a three goal lead like that is just sad. Getting a point against ManU isn't bad and a draw should perhaps get our confidence up a bit, but getting a point like this could have the opposite effect.

[EmeraldBlue]

Come on City ;-)

A soft penalty followed by blatant cheating. Dorset is correct - after the 2nd the Chelsea players must be terrified. Still, in cup half full mode - it was a classic and restored some pride to the team - at least I hope so. Terry's authority was missed, something that is missing in other areas as well.

[bjd]

Dorset, on 06 February 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

To those fans who say that we only have ourselves to blame for allowing a three goal lead to slip, well, let me say that it needed one penalty decision to encourage the opposition and a second to confirm that this particular referee was prepared to give United all the encouragement they needed to get on level terms and more. Playing too deep or not, then subsequently beating ourselves up about it, undermines the obvious positives inherent in Mata cutting them to ribbons at the start of the second half and I think we all knew what would happen as soon as we saw the ubiquitous United player ‘contact’ being made with our makeshift defender in the box. Then, even when there wasn’t any from Branna, we all knew that it would be Howard Webb’s predilection to give a penalty anyway, especially where ManU are involved and benefiting thereby. It was ever thus with referees in important games so far this season and we should not be surprised to see it continue right through until the end.

Why? Well, it’s simple really; One, it’s because this is the only competition United are left in - they’re going to fight tooth and nail to win the Europa League? Nah, that’s not going to happen. Two, it’s because Ferguson is in his seventieth year and still competing in a league that has seen him reach such influential status and dominance it almost demands trophy recognition in this of all years. Three, it’s because he has the undying support and loyalty of most of the media outlets in this country, including Sky, the Premiership purse string-pullers supreme, whose undermining of rival clubs in one-on-confrontations with the Red Devils has become as legendary as their oft-remembered reverence towards a Munich air disaster, always accompanied by Busby Babe head-patting and a continual bizarre acknowledgement of the supply of talented Academy kids to win titles en bloc and on an annual basis.

And four, it’s because Man City have become monstrous noisy neighbours, threatening as they do to bring the Ferguson twilight years into sharp retirement, trophy-less focus at the wrong time and in the wrong place [his personal Premiership fiefdom], so a gap in the league table cannot therefore be allowed to grow to unmanageable proportions without a referee’s attempted interference here (probably after a half-time ear-bashing) whether it be in the form of myriad fouls given in his team’s favour after inexplicable decision-making delay, or a leg-up when the uncontrollable occurs in the form of two quick goals against and an overall 0-3 deficit.

We may well have been bitterly disappointed with yesterday’s final result, but it will be nothing compared to Mancini’s [now confirmed] perception that his team must overcome a double dose of partiality and prejudice, targeted both against their perceived unfair buying power and in favour of the doting officialdom darlings from down the road. When he sees the duplicitous standards of refereeing we have in the supposed ‘best league in the world‘, the press reporting and Media prejudice, with all of it buttressed by FA buffoonery, the effete Italian must think to himself, much like a fellow countryman currently in charge of our national team [allegedly] - that English officiates are a mighty strange bunch and no mistake.

Strange, yes Roberto, but doubtless you ain’t seen nothing yet.

Dorset , normally i agree with pretty much every word of your posts but i not sure if i can buy into the theory that this was all about the ref and a bias towards our opposition yesterday, by either the officals or by what you call media outlets. I dont see what bringing Man City and Mancini into it has to do with it either, thats not our problem after all!

Plain and simple, we went to pieces at 3-1 and there was no leadership on or off the pitch to see us through. The second penalty was harsh but it certainly wasnt the worst descion i have ever seen and im pretty sure a fair few of us wouldve been asking for it if it had happened at the other end.

Without doubt there are times when we have felt the rough end of justice against Man Utd (we are, of course not the only ones!) and a perceived bias against us from the media coverage in a game against Man Utd but yesterday, i do feel we got what what was coming. It happened and it hurt, but we crumbled under pressure. Webb didnt help us, but we have to face that fact we crumbled. Lets hope its a learning curve for everyone.

Edited by bjd, 06 February 2012 - 06:10 PM.

[TrojanMan]

I watched it again last night, after the Super Bowl.  Already having seen it once and knowing the result allowed me to watch for certain things, and offer a more objective analysis.  So, here we go.....

*Cahill was a little better than I initially gave him credit for.  He interecepted a handful of passes, is the best defender we have in terms of clearing headers going more than 5 or 6 yards out, and did a decent job getting in the way when United players were fishing for shots around the edge of the box.  The glaring mistake was leaving Chicharito open to tie the game.  Though I don't know who was supposed to mark him -- Cahill, Luiz, or Romeu.  They formed a triangle of stillness.  While Chicharito ran into the space to reach that cross, those three all stood in a perfect triangle, each several yards away from the wide open red shirt.

*Bosingwa and Ivanovic did well.  Considering Ivan had to deal with someone who is much, much faster than him, and Bossy was responsible for arguably the hottest right wing in the league, I'm very happy with what they were able to do.  I was fearful that United would slice us up on both wings, but our guys more than held their own.

*Essien was dead after about 60 minutes.  Very active before that, but the guy had nothing left in the tank late in the game.  United was able to charge down the middle with little resistence, and he couldn't really catch up.  The positive spin on that -- if he can get his fitness back to a full 90 minutes, we've got a great player on our hands still.

*Torres had a good game.  He looks, to me, like he's resigned himself to the fact that we're never going to use him the way Liverpool did.  So he's trying to find a way to be effective in our slow, deliberate build up.  He's dropping back for link up play.  He was beating defenders with the dribble yesterday -- more so than I've seen in a long, long time from him.  His passing was good -- the cross to Mata, the little lay off for Essien's shot late, etc.  Obviously the thing everyone will point to is when he didn't shoot late.  I wish he would've just let it rip right after he took the ball to his right, past Evans.  But until he knocks one or two in, he's not going to take those shots.  He's pressing too much, and trying to set up the perfect shot instead of just taking his chances.

*Malouda and Sturridge were poor.  Malouda tried to pass -- even to Torres at times -- but his passes were terrible.  Either to an opponent or behind a teammate.  Sturridge just won't pass.  Two examples: Malouda was into some space near the left edge of the box.  Had Sturridge WIDE open at the back post for a cross.  Instead he tried to slide a short pass through traffic to Torres (I think), and it was a bad pass at that.  United grabbed it and broke the other way.  Another time, Sturridge came into the middle and more or less took possession from Torres.  Torres faded out to the ride and positioned himself for a short run and free shot on goal.  Sturridge kept it himself and tried to fire through multiple defenders.  I know Danny scored, but he negated that goal with a stupid PK conceded.  And he killed as many attacks as did Malouda.  If AVB could find a way to take about a third of Sturridge's selfishness and confidence away and give it Torres, they'd both be much better for it.

[Bobbsterr]

Like everyone else I'm devastated we gave up that 3 - 0 lead, although I'm not surprised it happened as we always look vulnerable these days. The only, very small, consolation is that we ensured those Red tossers are still two points behind Man City!

Edited by Bobbsterr, 06 February 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[yorkleyblue]

bjd, on 06 February 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Dorset , normally i agree with pretty much every word of your posts but i not sure if i can buy into the theory that this was all about the ref and a bias towards our opposition yesterday, by either the officals or by what you call media outlets. I dont see what bringing Man City and Mancini into it has to do with it either, thats not our problem after all!

Plain and simple, we went to pieces at 3-1 and there was no leadership on or off the pitch to see us through. The second penalty was harsh but it certainly wasnt the worst descion i have ever seen and im pretty sure a fair few of us wouldve been asking for it if it had happened at the other end.

Without doubt there are times when we have felt the rough end of justice against Man Utd (we are, of course not the only ones!) and a perceived bias against us from the media coverage in a game against Man Utd but yesterday, i do feel we got what what was coming. It happened and it hurt, but we crumbled under pressure. Webb didnt help us, but we have to face that fact we crumbled. Lets hope its a learning curve for everyone.

I'm with Dorset to a certain degree on this one.  At 3-0 the Manc players heads had dropped a bit, they were looking bewildered and had no confidence. The first penalty was very dubious, Evra knew Danny was coming in behind and stepped across him, then exaggerated the contact as if he'd been shot.  This gave the Mancs hope again, and the second penalty was outrageous, but confirmed to them that they could do it.  Watching our players walking back after that second crime of alleged "refereeing", their heads had dropped, their shoulders were slumped and they looked defeated,  I thought then that we'd be lucky to get a draw out of the match.  Before the first "penalty", they did not look likely to score at all, and apart from a short spell, I thought we were handling "The Champions" (copyright Sky commentators everywhere) quite well.  They ran about a lot and attacked with speed, but didn't really look like scoring.  We knew before the match that Ferguson had already moaned about never getting penalties at the bridge (again), and that, along with  missing the Cahill foul in the first half made sure that Webb would do whatever he could to redress the balance.  And oh, how he did redressed it.

On balance, we didn't have the mental fortitude to hold out, but, without two dubious penalties to lift their spirits, we'd have had a nice win against the Media darlings.

[evissy]

Just listened to SAF's post game interview and it made me angry, as usual. He didn't give any credit to the goals we scored apart from Mata's.

Sturridge totally fooled their captain and main man Evra with a great dribble and was 2 yards from goal. He shot his pass with high speed and it bounced in. Otherwise it is Malouda who shoots it in. It was going in even without Evans. The goal was made before the shot already. Great game changing moves from Danny.

And if you look at Luiz's goal it was great movement from him and good clean header that is going to low left corner but it bounces in from Rio who is miles behind and already too late and it goes in.

In both goals their defense was totally fooled and we more than deserved the 3 goals. They should have world class defense as they are second in the table.


From their goals only Chicharito's goal was a goal from open play.

All the papers are writing how great ManU is with their comeback but no mention to the fact we blasted 3 goals behind them. We were always the underdog and still no credit to us. Sad.

[bjd]

yorkleyblue, on 07 February 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I'm with Dorset to a certain degree on this one.  At 3-0 the Manc players heads had dropped a bit, they were looking bewildered and had no confidence. The first penalty was very dubious, Evra knew Danny was coming in behind and stepped across him, then exaggerated the contact as if he'd been shot.  This gave the Mancs hope again, and the second penalty was outrageous, but confirmed to them that they could do it.  Watching our players walking back after that second crime of alleged "refereeing", their heads had dropped, their shoulders were slumped and they looked defeated,  I thought then that we'd be lucky to get a draw out of the match.  Before the first "penalty", they did not look likely to score at all, and apart from a short spell, I thought we were handling "The Champions" (copyright Sky commentators everywhere) quite well.  They ran about a lot and attacked with speed, but didn't really look like scoring.  We knew before the match that Ferguson had already moaned about never getting penalties at the bridge (again), and that, along with  missing the Cahill foul in the first half made sure that Webb would do whatever he could to redress the balance.  And oh, how he did redressed it.

On balance, we didn't have the mental fortitude to hold out, but, without two dubious penalties to lift their spirits, we'd have had a nice win against the Media darlings.

Fair enough mate, however regarding the first pen i dont think it was dubious at all.

It was a stupid piece of play by Sturridge, he caught him and a player like Evra doesnt need a second invitation to go down (we have a fair few players like that too!). That set the tone for the comeback for sure and i do feel it was self inflicted. A very stupid pen to give away

Edited by bjd, 07 February 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[Castiel]

bjd, on 07 February 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Fair enough mate, however regarding the first pen i dont think it was dubious at all.

It was a stupid piece of play by Sturridge, he caught him and a player like Evra doesnt need a second invitation to go down (we have a fair few players like that too!). That set the tone for the comeback for sure and i do feel it was self inflicted. A very stupid pen to give away

I can't blame the referee for giving it, but its pretty clear to me that Evra intended to and succeeded in manufacturing it.  A con is a con.  Just because its a clever con doesn't make it right.  Having it happen twice in a row is just salt in the wound.

[TrojanMan]

evissy, on 07 February 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

And if you look at Luiz's goal it was great movement from him and good clean header that is going to low left corner but it bounces in from Rio who is miles behind and already too late and it goes in.

Right before Mata took that kick, Luiz walked away from the clump of bodies, towards DeGea, and pointed out to Mata where he wanted the ball.  Personally, I think that was more mind games with DeGea than actually directing Mata.  As if to tell him, "get ready boy, we're coming right at you."

Castiel, on 07 February 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

I can't blame the referee for giving it, but its pretty clear to me that Evra intended to and succeeded in manufacturing it.  A con is a con.  Just because its a clever con doesn't make it right.  Having it happen twice in a row is just salt in the wound.

Evra absolutely knew what he was doing, but it was still a penalty.  Like it or not, seeking out contact to draw a whistle is very much a part of the game now.

[shedpensioner]

Castiel, on 07 February 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

I can't blame the referee for giving it, but its pretty clear to me that Evra intended to and succeeded in manufacturing it.  A con is a con.  Just because its a clever con doesn't make it right.  Having it happen twice in a row is just salt in the wound.

I still say that in both of the penalty incidents if they had been at the other end of the pitch, we would have wanted them, I have no gripes about the referees display!

We lost because having got in the position we did, no-one in charge of the team had the tactical knowledge to close a game out!

[Zeta Orionis]

The Sturridge one probably was a penalty and it was a bit stupid. The Ivanovic one, never a penalty. And the 3rd goal poor marking. So 2 of those 3 goals were preventable, and one was down to a poor refereeing decision. You can't really plan for poor ref decisions, and it's not like we've never had any in our favour (though Webb does seem to do this a lot for Man Utd...).

So I would focus much more on the other 2 goals than worrying about the penalty that shouldn't have been given, and hopefully they will address both those issues in training. I am sh*tting myself every time the opposition get the ball in our box, because we always look like we're about to trip them up and conceded a stupid penalty, and we need to do much better in that regard. And also improve our awareness and marking. Luiz and Cahill was a 1st time pairing though, so they can be excused for not knowing where each other were, but it shouldn't happen again.

[Butch]

Dorset, on 06 February 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

To those fans who say that we only have ourselves to blame for allowing a three goal lead to slip, well, let me say that it needed one penalty decision to encourage the opposition and a second to confirm that this particular referee was prepared to give United all the encouragement they needed to get on level terms and more. Playing too deep or not, then subsequently beating ourselves up about it, undermines the obvious positives inherent in Mata cutting them to ribbons at the start of the second half and I think we all knew what would happen as soon as we saw the ubiquitous United player ‘contact’ being made with our makeshift defender in the box. Then, even when there wasn’t any from Branna, we all knew that it would be Howard Webb’s predilection to give a penalty anyway, especially where ManU are involved and benefiting thereby. It was ever thus with referees in important games so far this season and we should not be surprised to see it continue right through until the end.

Why? Well, it’s simple really; One, it’s because this is the only competition United are left in - they’re going to fight tooth and nail to win the Europa League? Nah, that’s not going to happen. Two, it’s because Ferguson is in his seventieth year and still competing in a league that has seen him reach such influential status and dominance it almost demands trophy recognition in this of all years. Three, it’s because he has the undying support and loyalty of most of the media outlets in this country, including Sky, the Premiership purse string-pullers supreme, whose undermining of rival clubs in one-on-confrontations with the Red Devils has become as legendary as their oft-remembered reverence towards a Munich air disaster, always accompanied by Busby Babe head-patting and a continual bizarre acknowledgement of the supply of talented Academy kids to win titles en bloc and on an annual basis.

And four, it’s because Man City have become monstrous noisy neighbours, threatening as they do to bring the Ferguson twilight years into sharp retirement, trophy-less focus at the wrong time and in the wrong place [his personal Premiership fiefdom], so a gap in the league table cannot therefore be allowed to grow to unmanageable proportions without a referee’s attempted interference here (probably after a half-time ear-bashing) whether it be in the form of myriad fouls given in his team’s favour after inexplicable decision-making delay, or a leg-up when the uncontrollable occurs in the form of two quick goals against and an overall 0-3 deficit.

We may well have been bitterly disappointed with yesterday’s final result, but it will be nothing compared to Mancini’s [now confirmed] perception that his team must overcome a double dose of partiality and prejudice, targeted both against their perceived unfair buying power and in favour of the doting officialdom darlings from down the road. When he sees the duplicitous standards of refereeing we have in the supposed ‘best league in the world‘, the press reporting and Media prejudice, with all of it buttressed by FA buffoonery, the effete Italian must think to himself, much like a fellow countryman currently in charge of our national team [allegedly] - that English officiates are a mighty strange bunch and no mistake.

Strange, yes Roberto, but doubtless you ain’t seen nothing yet.

So sick and tired of EPL referees; I really am. There is such a huge disparity in the reading of the game. And make no mistake about it, that second penalty kick to United gave them the lift they needed, while also getting us to drop our heads and lose the plot. Sure, you can say our players have to take some of the blame for not showing cooler heads and riding it out, but still I come away from this match feeling extremely hard done by. I can't help it.

If you had offered me a draw before the game, I probably would have been happy enough to take it. But from 3-0 up and cruising, the manner in which United were let back into the game leaves me extremely frustrated. I'm happy to see you are with me on this, Dorset. I think it must have something to do with us being long-suffering Blues fans. It becomes ingrained in you, sadly.

But anyway, I'm going to look to the positives:
(1) Mata, what a boy and what a goal!
(2) Mata, what a free kick taker from shooting distance! Can we just make him our number one free kick taker from here on in?
(3) Essien - he was back and for about an hour he was solid in midfield. Considering two awful injuries to his knee, seeing him perform like that has given me some hope he may fully recover to be the player we need.
(4) Ivanovic - he, more than most, had a great game in defense for us, keeping United mostly at bay. That was never a penalty in a million years.
(5) Luiz - I have seen improvement in him over the past several matches. Still has the propensity to have the odd lapse in concentration and the penchant to want to go walkabout up the field, but an exciting player nonetheless who is tightening up his defending.
(6) Torres - the lad badly needs a goal, but his general play is good, bordering on very good/excellent. His link up play is good. He shows willingness to work hard. He also creates opportunities for his team mates, and what a cross for Mata's goal. He just needs to shoot more and get on the end of final passes/crosses.
(7) Sturridge - frustrating as hell on the day, but on a positive note, he ran Evra ragged and should have been kept on as a threat, however inconsistent, to the United left back.
(8) Cahill - solid debut and if that late shot had gone anywhere but straight down De Gea's throat, I dare say he wouldn't have got to it to tip it over. Then we'd really be talking about a terrific debut.

In general, we lacked a bit of leadership that the likes of Terry and Lampard give you, but despite this we went toe to toe with United and our attacking threats were able to hurt United, even though our passing was sloppy. I still don't think the balance of the squad is quite right, and I think AVB needs 1 or 2 key players to address this, but despite missing so many of our key players, we were able to hold our own and, gulp, take a 3-0 lead. That is both surprising and grounds for a bit of optimism.

The blooming' ref though, just can't get over him, LOL.

Cheers,

Butch

[barak81]

Just want to talk about torres for a moment.

Im personly in the camp of torres has everything he needs, its just in his head now. I still think he has the burst of pace, I still think his touch is there. But that head is completly messed up right now.


The quater final in 2009 was, its not the best video but you look at the way torres takes his goal. He would never hit that first time now. He would take a touch, control it, look at it, drag it, drag it again, look for a lay of. So much goof stuff is coming from him but some one needs to tell him to just go for goal and do it early.

[Rami]

Also look at our second goal 3 (or 4) passes and the ball is in the net, we dont play like this anymore, if we did the "Torres thread" wouldve been full of praise for his 20+ goals for us.