2 hours ago, evissy said:

2 hours ago, Sindre said:

It's certainly encouraging that we've faced Liverpool twice this season and been the better side in both games. At best we have had an average start to the season in terms of results but there are enough positive signs that everyone can remain positive and see that we are heading in the right direction.

We haven't been the better side. They had brilliant chances to crush us in both games. I'd say there were encouraging signs in both games and we really pushed one of the best sides in football with our young team.

We were clearly the best team in Istanbul. Closer yesterday as they were better for most of the first half but we dominated them second half (bar the first five minutes or so).

Not that it really matters, we lost both games but the signs are encouraging which was my entire point.

11 minutes ago, Sindre said:

We were clearly the best team in Istanbul. Closer yesterday as they were better for most of the first half but we dominated them second half (bar the first five minutes or so).

Not that it really matters, we lost both games but the signs are encouraging which was my entire point.

A draw would've been a reasonable result considering our second half performance

5 hours ago, Andy North said:

We do need to question the zonal marking. Is it right for our defenders or are they just not doing it properly?

Liverpool seemed to find gaps.

I wish Frank would just say ‘bollocks to it, it’s not working let’s go man for man’. 

I remember when we had issues with it under a previous manager (can’t remember who) so they went for a sort of hybrid which work well. I remember Lamps himself being in a position just in front of the near post clearing loads of balls. 

I expect Frank will sort out our defensive frailties from set pieces or at least improve them.

He resisted the temptation to play three centre backs vs Liverpool and has persisted with youngsters despite characters like Mourinho making disparaging remarks.

He has said they have worked on things on the training pitch and they are not bring implemented so he recognises an issue to be dealt with.

 

We have played matches like Liverpool did yesterday. When we were at our best. They just calmly control the game without the ball and win in the end. I agree a draw would have been the fair result.

15 hours ago, Munkworth said:

I wish Frank would just say ‘bollocks to it, it’s not working let’s go man for man’. 

I remember when we had issues with it under a previous manager (can’t remember who) so they went for a sort of hybrid which work well. I remember Lamps himself being in a position just in front of the near post clearing loads of balls. 

I tend to agree but I still place my trust in Frank and Jody.

It may have been a certain rotund restaurant operative that tried zonal before.

35 minutes ago, Andy North said:

I tend to agree but I still place my trust in Frank and Jody.

It may have been a certain rotund restaurant operative that tried zonal before.

TBF I dont think that any manager goes for a full zonal marking anymore, there is always some level of mix between some marking the space and some picking up certain players... I think it more a case that we have a pretty much new defensive line up with a fairly new keeper working with them so the roles arent as defined as they should be

19 minutes ago, Bonzodog29 said:

TBF I dont think that any manager goes for a full zonal marking anymore, there is always some level of mix between some marking the space and some picking up certain players... I think it more a case that we have a pretty much new defensive line up with a fairly new keeper working with them so the roles arent as defined as they should be

I agree again.

I also have other concerns. For me Christensen needs to shape up. He has certain quality but he isn't consistent and is mentally frail. A real horrible criticism of somebody I know but he has previously been caught in possession and is now starting to make wrong decisions about where he should be. Maybe its the coaching of zonal that's messing with his head but I also think he lacks a bit of killer instinct and is physically weak. I know I have just slaughtered a good player there but at the highest level you have to have all the attributes and for me he comes up short.

I'm starting to think that a Rudi/Zouma partnership is our best option. In a three I would add Tomori. Until our injuries go away we are going to suffer in defense but when I see the likes of Van Dijk on the pitch I think we need to buy a world class central defender when one becomes available.

6 minutes ago, Andy North said:

I'm starting to think that a Rudi/Zouma partnership is our best option

Don't you think Tomori have been much better than Zouma? It seems like most people think so.

25 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Don't you think Tomori have been much better than Zouma? It seems like most people think so.

Tomori is full of potential but at the moment I think we need experience at the back. His distribution wasn't that great at the weekend. He looks like a young William Gallas and for me the JT, Gallas pairing was the best we ever had. He needs more games so put him on the bench and have cup games to start with and if he really impresses gradually slot him into the team but at the moment if Rudi and Zouma are fit they get in.

39 minutes ago, Andy North said:

I agree again.

I also have other concerns. For me Christensen needs to shape up. He has certain quality but he isn't consistent and is mentally frail. A real horrible criticism of somebody I know but he has previously been caught in possession and is now starting to make wrong decisions about where he should be. Maybe its the coaching of zonal that's messing with his head but I also think he lacks a bit of killer instinct and is physically weak. I know I have just slaughtered a good player there but at the highest level you have to have all the attributes and for me he comes up short.

I'm starting to think that a Rudi/Zouma partnership is our best option. In a three I would add Tomori. Until our injuries go away we are going to suffer in defense but when I see the likes of Van Dijk on the pitch I think we need to buy a world class central defender when one becomes available.

Tomori is the next  Van Dijk 

6 minutes ago, Andy North said:

Tomori is full of potential but at the moment I think we need experience at the back. His distribution wasn't that great at the weekend. He looks like a young William Gallas and for me the JT, Gallas pairing was the best we ever had. He needs more games so put him on the bench and have cup games to start with and if he really impresses gradually slot him into the team but at the moment if Rudi and Zouma are fit they get in.

Okay. I disagree as i think Tomori have been our best CB this season and Zouma have been all over the place.

And Tomori's passing and distribution is far better then Zoumas as well in my view.

 

2 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Okay. I disagree as i think Tomori have been our best CB this season and Zouma have been all over the place.

And Tomori's passing and distribution is far better then Zoumas as well in my view.

 

I'm not going to fall out with anyone over this and am happy to be proven wrong but I do think there are other considerations at hand here.

We are all loving the introduction of the young players and yes I feel we have the best batch out of any team in the premier league, but a number of fans seem to be ignoring the fact that we need experience somewhere. We also need to protect our young players. At the moment they are showing a certain resilience but the psychological damage they could suffer as a result of continuing to be in losing teams could be irreversible. They may be OK but we don't know and they are young. They are still developing and just because they show technical ability doesn't mean they are mentally strong.

I trust Frank and Jody to make the correct choices.

 

9 minutes ago, Andy North said:

I'm not going to fall out with anyone over this and am happy to be proven wrong but I do think there are other considerations at hand here.

We are all loving the introduction of the young players and yes I feel we have the best batch out of any team in the premier league, but a number of fans seem to be ignoring the fact that we need experience somewhere. We also need to protect our young players. At the moment they are showing a certain resilience but the psychological damage they could suffer as a result of continuing to be in losing teams could be irreversible. They may be OK but we don't know and they are young. They are still developing and just because they show technical ability doesn't mean they are mentally strong.

I trust Frank and Jody to make the correct choices.

 

I agree with the theory of that.
But i won't favour experience over youth if the youngster is performing better (much better in this case).

But you do need a good mix of youth and experience so i think Lampard will go to the market for a couple of top class players with experience when we can buy again.
Signing Van Dijk transformed Liverpools defence for example, i am hoping we can find our own "Van Dijk" come next summer.

 

13 minutes ago, Sindre said:

I agree with the theory of that.
But i won't favour experience over youth if the youngster is performing better (much better in this case).

But you do need a good mix of youth and experience so i think Lampard will go to the market for a couple of top class players with experience when we can buy again.
Signing Van Dijk transformed Liverpools defence for example, i am hoping we can find our own "Van Dijk" come next summer.

 

If the results continue to be bad there will come a time when Frank and Jody will have to take a more pragmatic view of the team choice. I'm sure they too believe in the young players but if the youngsters are thought to be performing well and we still lose there comes a time when experience will be preferable. Performance is one thing but its a results business and if relegation looms we will need to reconsider.

4 minutes ago, Andy North said:

 if relegation looms

Think I can safely say that won't be happening.

1 hour ago, Andy North said:

If the results continue to be bad there will come a time when Frank and Jody will have to take a more pragmatic view of the team choice. I'm sure they too believe in the young players but if the youngsters are thought to be performing well and we still lose there comes a time when experience will be preferable. Performance is one thing but its a results business and if relegation looms we will need to reconsider.

Relegation?! 

We've had a very tough start to the season. We should have beaten Sheffield United but I'd argue the other results have all gone as expected for a team coming 4th-6th. Add that to missing some of our best players during that time.

I think we've got a good shot at coming 3rd on current form (we would win our next 6 games if we play the way we did in our last 2) let alone the fact this team with its age should improve as the season goes on. 

Edited September 24, 20196 yr by bisright1

2 hours ago, Andy North said:

If the results continue to be bad there will come a time when Frank and Jody will have to take a more pragmatic view of the team choice. I'm sure they too believe in the young players but if the youngsters are thought to be performing well and we still lose there comes a time when experience will be preferable. Performance is one thing but its a results business and if relegation looms we will need to reconsider.

Relegation really isn’t going to happen. Would hate to go down the ‘pragmatic route’ after all these years of waiting for our youth to be given their chance. I believe from what I’ve seen and when we get a fit squad and a bit of a consistent run we are sorted. Too many recent years of spending way over the top for quite literally crap players, who only play to save face or are used a reason why we need to spend even more money on more crap players when all along the answer is on our own door step. Fed up up of all the negative vibes. Let’s have some faith ffs. Win or lose follow the blues. 

Pragmatic or believe in the system and the work. I guess it is all down to that.

For me, our strongest starting lineup would be 

                           Kepa
Dave     -   Rudiger  -  Tomori  -  Emerson
                          Jorgi
              Kante              RLC
CHO                                     Mount
                       Tammy

Of those players, we were missing Rudi, Emerson and RLC, and I think RLC and Rudiger would have made a massive difference in the game on sunday with their added physicality. Next summer we really need to be addressing the defence first and foremost. I rate out two centre backs above very highly, but feel there's no depth there if anyone is injured, as I think Christensen has really fallen off and just isnt quite good enough for us. Zouma is a good backup choice for me, should get 20-30 games per season, but Tomori already looks the better player, and Rudiger is our best centre back. Emerson shows glimpses, but i think we could do with an upgrade on him, and i'd say we should be looking at a player to cover for Dave if we didn't have Reece James, who I think could end up as our starting right back by the end of this season. I'm excited by this team, more than I have been in years

The elephant in the room is our points tally. 8 points after 6 games. Same as Utd and Tottenham, who are both having terrible seasons apparently. Sure, there are plenty of mitigating factors for Frank but we need points, otherwise pressure builds on an inexperienced team and an inexperienced manager. Say what you want about our performances but the truth is we're exactly where we deserve to be in the league.

 

I'm happy about the youngsters and the manager so there's no complaints from me, but I think the team lacks structure and I think Frank has a long way to go before having any claims to being a top coach. As I said elsewhere, our midfield works with Kante, because of his incredible energy levels, but we shouldn't be relying on a freak of nature to make us look remotely coherent.

 

We're not getting top four, of that I'm sure. We're not even getting top six in my opinion. Right now we're in the bottom half and I wouldn't be surprised if that's where we stay. A young team with a young manager. It's a steep learning curve for everybody, in a tough league, under the spotlight. I don't expect consistency. Wherever we end up, I'm fine with it. We need to be realistic and we need to be patient. This is an extremely talented crop of youngsters. Whether Frank's a talented manager remains to be seen. I just hope we keep the faith.

25 minutes ago, Davey Baby said:

The elephant in the room is our points tally. 8 points after 6 games. Same as Utd and Tottenham, who are both having terrible seasons apparently. Sure, there are plenty of mitigating factors for Frank but we need points, otherwise pressure builds on an inexperienced team and an inexperienced manager. Say what you want about our performances but the truth is we're exactly where we deserve to be in the league.

 

I'm happy about the youngsters and the manager so there's no complaints from me, but I think the team lacks structure and I think Frank has a long way to go before having any claims to being a top coach. As I said elsewhere, our midfield works with Kante, because of his incredible energy levels, but we shouldn't be relying on a freak of nature to make us look remotely coherent.

 

We're not getting top four, of that I'm sure. We're not even getting top six in my opinion. Right now we're in the bottom half and I wouldn't be surprised if that's where we stay. A young team with a young manager. It's a steep learning curve for everybody, in a tough league, under the spotlight. I don't expect consistency. Wherever we end up, I'm fine with it. We need to be realistic and we need to be patient. This is an extremely talented crop of youngsters. Whether Frank's a talented manager remains to be seen. I just hope we keep the faith.

I disagree.

At the start I thought top four would be tough but looking at the state of the other three teams I genuinely think we can get 3rd if we can get our first choice team together for an extended period.

Top 6 however should be minimum requirement, regardless of what stage of the process we have some the best young talent in the world coming into a squad of multiple trophy winners, anything below 7th then questions have to be asked.

38 minutes ago, evissy said:

Pragmatic or believe in the system and the work. I guess it is all down to that.

No doubt for me we keep on going with the system regardless of short term hits.

The title isn't happening this season, it's one thing taking the here and now approach when there's a real chance of a major trophy (like in 2015) but just to get top four? f**k that.

47 minutes ago, RMCM said:

For me, our strongest starting lineup would be 

                           Kepa
Dave     -   Rudiger  -  Tomori  -  Emerson
                          Jorgi
              Kante              RLC
CHO                                     Mount
                       Tammy

Of those players, we were missing Rudi, Emerson and RLC, and I think RLC and Rudiger would have made a massive difference in the game on sunday with their added physicality. Next summer we really need to be addressing the defence first and foremost. I rate out two centre backs above very highly, but feel there's no depth there if anyone is injured, as I think Christensen has really fallen off and just isnt quite good enough for us. Zouma is a good backup choice for me, should get 20-30 games per season, but Tomori already looks the better player, and Rudiger is our best centre back. Emerson shows glimpses, but i think we could do with an upgrade on him, and i'd say we should be looking at a player to cover for Dave if we didn't have Reece James, who I think could end up as our starting right back by the end of this season. I'm excited by this team, more than I have been in years

Rare that I agree with a poster who isn't @Argo word for word! 

Klopp or Pep haven't. Why should Frank? We should win the way Frank wants us to play. Forward time 2 seasons and we will probably play the way Frank wants and win.

Frank said if we play like we did second half most teams will struggle against us. He is probably right.

Adjust to the situation pep and kloop didn't have a transfer ban and most players injured no one is saying stop playing the way he wants I am saying adjust until we have a full strength squad pick up valuable points this is a results points business