1 minute ago, Argo said:

Whoever passed the ball to Hazard before he scored his solo goals at Anfield got an "assist".

Until the term is redefined it's good for fantasy football and that's about it.

Im a little confused by this. football is dead simple in my head. 

goals win games. dont score dont win.... like we saw yesterday. I expect Chelsea to score in every game, doesnt always happen, I sometimes wish Chelsea would score after a period of domination but it isn't always the case. 

If financial meddling is wrong more often than not, I dont see how potential assists or passes can be an accurate way of gauging the simple act of the final pass to a striker as its entirely based on chance within a 90 ,minute window. 

Gibberish stats that mean nothing imo

 

1 minute ago, olderschoolcfc said:

Im a little confused by this. football is dead simple in my head. 

goals win games. dont score dont win.... like we saw yesterday. I expect Chelsea to score in every game, doesnt always happen, I sometimes wish Chelsea would score after a period of domination but it isn't always the case. 

If financial meddling is wrong more often than not, I dont see how potential assists or passes can be an accurate way of gauging the simple act of the final pass to a striker as its entirely based on chance within a 90 ,minute window. 

Gibberish stats that mean nothing imo

 

Because you can make the best pass in football history and you'd still be relying on another player doing their job for it to go on record but by equal measure you can have an "assist" by passing the ball one yard before a 40 yard screamer.

You can also equally play the most crucial role in a goal but not be one of the players getting the goal or assist, incidentally like Enzo himself for the second goal at Villa Park.

1 minute ago, Argo said:

Because you can make the best pass in football history and you'd still be relying on another player doing their job for it to go on record but by equal measure you can have an "assist" by passing the ball one yard before a 40 yard screamer.

You can also equally play the most crucial role in a goal but not be one of the players getting the goal or assist, incidentally like Enzo himself for the second goal at Villa Park.

Enjoy it... Not for me and Xg or xA isn't a very good metric = gibberish. 

1 hour ago, Sheva said:

It's mad to me how we downplay Jorginho and Kovas contribution. They both won European cups with us and Jorginho even won the uefa player of the year award.

The current crop of players are absolutley no where near that standard right now, not even close.

We're currently 11th and last season they finished 12th and we were fighting on all fronts before we signed all these younger "talented" players. It doesn't matter if you think they are potentially better than them, right now they are no where near as good and there's a very good chance a few of them won't even reach that level.

Enzo has done f**k all in a Chelsea shirt compared to Jorginho.

 

 

 

Jorginho and Kovacic are winners at the highest level of club football and with them we never finished below top 4. They came here, did their job and left as winners.

 

Now look at Enzo, he's doing a backheel trash move in a cup final, for a similar move Balotelli got subbed off by Mancini while playing pre-season in America, it's simply not comparable. As soon as you take away Gallagher from our midfield the 100m signings of Enzo and Caicedo look lost and provide no stability nor control, this is a fact.

Edited February 26, 20242 yr by Gol15

Can't believe this is actually a debate.

We're 11th and just lost to Liverpool ball boys in a final of the cup and we're comparing Jorginho to Enzo using stat metrics.

Literally clutching at straws.

Enzo has been sh*te for us for a long time, he's apart of the problem just as much as anyone else and if he was sold tomorrow there's alot of fans who wouldn't even care.

105m by the way, one hundred and five million but his stats are better so I guess it's ok?

There's only 3 signings that have been a success during this ownership and that's Palmer, Gusto and Petrovic. The rest are no where near up to the level that's required and no where near the level of the likes of Werner, Kova, Kante, Jorginho, Havertz and co when they were under Tuchel and some of them under Sarri.

There's literally european trophies right there in the cabient.

I am all for eating my words in a years time but right now you have no case.

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Jorginho and Kovacic are winners at the highest level of club football and with them we never finished below top 4.

 

Now look at Enzo, he's doing a backheel trash move in a cup final, for a similar move Balotelli got subbed off by Mancini while playing pre-season in America, it's simply not comparable. As soon as you take away Gallagher from our midfield and the 100m signings of Enzo and Caicedo look lost and provide no stability nor control, this is a fact.

Take away prime Kante and Jorginho looked like a National league player when he was here. 

18 minutes ago, olderschoolcfc said:

Enjoy it... Not for me and Xg or xA isn't a very good metric = gibberish. 

Neither is the assist stat until its redefined.

Just now, RIP Mourinho said:

Take away prime Kante and Jorginho looked like a National league player when he was here. 

Your opinion is literally irrelevant for 6 years and running. Jorginho is living rent free in your little air head, Kante was 10 times more injured than Jorginho while Jorginho was here you have as always no argument, you're just a hater and that's all you ever were and ever will be.

1 minute ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Take away prime Kante and Jorginho looked like a National league player when he was here. 

I've got to admire your consistency in terms of your awful opinion on Jorginho 😄

9 minutes ago, Sheva said:

 

 

 

There's only 3 signings that have been a success during this ownership and that's Palmer, Gusto and Petrovic. The rest are no where near up to the level that's required and no where near the level of the likes of Werner, Kova, Kante, Jorginho, Havertz and co when they were under Tuchel and some of them under Sarri.

You've kind of proved our point, when they were under Sarri and Tuchel ie in an adequate system, remember how "crap" they all supposedly were under Lampard?

1 minute ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Take away prime Kante and Jorginho looked like a National league player when he was here. 

Take away Messi and.......

1 minute ago, Argo said:

You've kind of proved our point, when they were under Sarri and Tuchel ie in an adequate system, remember how "crap" they all supposedly were under Lampard?

Just a part of Lampard's second season where he actually lost his job after playing Kante at the base of the midfield. Other than that, who's to say that our squad didn't earn their top 4 during Lampard's first season where he pretty much used all players?

Enzo is by no means doing something out of the ordinary, he actually needs Caicedo and Gallagher to cover for him at all times so that he can have the freedom to distribute, even in those terms Jorginho had more impact from day 1.

1 minute ago, Argo said:

You've kind of proved our point, when they were under Sarri and Tuchel ie in an adequate system, remember how "crap" they all supposedly were under Lampard?

 

I would bet that most of these players would look world-class under Ange , Xabi Alonso or De Zerbi just to name a few. 

Even though I don't want Poch sacked as it won't would just be a reverse of getting this mess calm down after his 2.5 years no chance his contract gets renewed. 

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

Just a part of Lampard's second season where he actually lost his job after playing Kante at the base of the midfield. Other than that, who's to say that our squad didn't earn their top 4 during Lampard's first season where he pretty much used all players?

Enzo is by no means doing something out of the ordinary, he actually needs Caicedo and Gallagher to cover for him at all times so that he can have the freedom to distribute, even in those terms Jorginho had more impact from day 1.

Lampards tactics had many thinking Kante was finished, Rudiger and Christensen were two of the worst defenders in the league amongst god knows what else.

There's multiple players in this squad that have been genuinely top class under every manager they've played under until they meet Pochettino, it's clear to see where the (biggest) problem is.

Thought he was average at best and poor at worst yesterday. The back heel attempt was criminal. He’s more flashy/talented than jorginho but certainly not as effective this far.

13 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Your opinion is literally irrelevant for 6 years and running. Jorginho is living rent free in your little air head, Kante was 10 times more injured than Jorginho while Jorginho was here you have as always no argument, you're just a hater and that's all you ever were and ever will be.

The irony of this post when you're a running joke on here lol

1 minute ago, Argo said:

You've kind of proved our point, when they were under Sarri and Tuchel ie in an adequate system, remember how "crap" they all supposedly were under Lampard?

Oh there's alot more to it than the group of players I agree and my blame is mostly at the feet of the owners for the mess we are in because we've signed crap and alot of it at the same time.

Talented players only goes so far if you don't have any bottle. These players hid yestarday against a number of players in that Liverpool team that rose to the occassion and have barely kicked a ball all season. There were no systems in extra time it was just 11 players deciding to call it a day and Potter couldn't get a tune out of them, Lampard couldn't and now Poch is struggling. 3 managers and we're going to have to throw more managers at it to make it stick because that's the situation we are in now because of the owners.

I named those 3 players because no matter how poor we play they still outperform the rest of the squad at times. Why can't the others step up and show their value?

I'd love to be proven wrong and we get in a manager who will sort this mess out but Utd have been throwing managers at poor recruitment for years and they have never dropped down this low as us.

4 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

The irony of this post when you're a running joke on here lol

According to 1 or 2 people that are the biggest Jorginho haters, yeap just like I said, take the L again and be gone...

4 minutes ago, Sheva said:

Oh there's alot more to it than the group of players I agree and my blame is mostly at the feet of the owners for the mess we are in because we've signed crap and alot of it at the same time.

Talented players only goes so far if you don't have any bottle. These players hid yestarday against a number of players in that Liverpool team that rose to the occassion and have barely kicked a ball all season. There were no systems in extra time it was just 11 players deciding to call it a day and Potter couldn't get a tune out of them, Lampard couldn't and now Poch is struggling. 3 managers and we're going to have to throw more managers at it to make it stick because that's the situation we are in now because of the owners.

I named those 3 players because no matter how poor we play they still outperform the rest of the squad at times. Why can't the others step up and show their value?

I'd love to be proven wrong and we get in a manager who will sort this mess out but Utd have been throwing managers at poor recruitment for years and they have never dropped down this low as us.

Potter didn't have these players for long (we basically had the 21/22 squad plus Sterling, Cucurella and Kouli until January) and for the two months he had Enzo we were by in large performing pretty well and looking onto something.

I guess we'll truly see when we have a new manager but we've got multiple players who have been top class under every manager they've played under until they came across Pochettino, that simply cannot be a coincidence.

8 minutes ago, Argo said:

Lampards tactics had many thinking Kante was finished, Rudiger and Christensen were two of the worst defenders in the league amongst god knows what else.

There's multiple players in this squad that have been genuinely top class under every manager they've played under until they meet Pochettino, it's clear to see where the (biggest) problem is.

That happened only during Lampard's second season at some point and it lasted around 3 months I believe.

There is a difference from a manager not using the players properly and Enzo having all the freedom to do whatever he wants and still doing a backheel in the cup final. I'm not questioning Enzo's talent, I'm questioning his persona, his attitude and wonder if he'll just do the same under the next manager?

If so, not much can be done, Veron had a sh*tty attitude and it didn't matter how talented he was.

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

That happened only during Lampard's second season at some point and it lasted around 3 months I believe.

There is a difference from a manager not using the players properly and Enzo having all the freedom to do whatever he wants and still doing a backheel in the cup final. I'm not questioning Enzo's talent, I'm questioning his persona, his attitude and wonder if he'll just do the same under the next manager?

If so, not much can be done, Veron had a sh*tty attitude and it didn't matter how talented he was.

We were crap defensively even in the good times. We conceded 50 goals wasn't it in 19/20?

Infact if anything we were probably slightly better in the early parts of 20/21 (due to the Silva/Mendy novelty).

1 minute ago, Argo said:

We were crap defensively even in the good times. We conceded 50 goals wasn't it in 19/20?

Infact if anything we were probably slightly better in the early parts of 20/21 (due to the Silva/Mendy novelty).

I think it was over 50 goals during Lampard's first season...

We have conceded 41 this season so far so I understand your points but even so there are certain things that are there when talking about Enzo that go beyond the manager.

Even while conceding a lot of goals we finished top 4, Enzo as the World Cup winner should be better than Jorginho in terms of influence and impact. I just can't get over that backheel, that's such a red flag to me, I can only hope that we get the manager we need that would be able to sort him out.

10 minutes ago, Argo said:

I guess we'll truly see when we have a new manager but we've got multiple players who have been top class under every manager they've played under until they came across Pochettino, that simply cannot be a coincidence.

I'm curious who you consider the multiple "top class" players are ... because I look down our squad list, and think back to where they were before, and what they did there, and the level those clubs were at, and I'm struggling to come up with much of a list myself ... ?

Several for the "promising but unproven" category, but top class ?

 

11 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

I'm curious who you consider the multiple "top class" players are ... because I look down our squad list, and think back to where they were before, and what they did there, and the level those clubs were at, and I'm struggling to come up with much of a list myself ... ?

Several for the "promising but unproven" category, but top class ?

 

Enzo and Caicedo are the main ones and it's now looking like Nkunku aswell.

Also the Badiashille under Potter and even Lampard compared to the nervous wreck we've seen this season is night and day.

Just now, Argo said:

Enzo and Caicedo are the main ones and it's now looking like Nkunku as well.

Also the Badiashille under Potter and even Lampard compared to the nervous wreck we've seen this season is night and day.

Not exactly multiple top class then. More a "handful" :-) . Most of those mentioned, don't have a sufficient body of work to qualify as "top class" for me. Nkunku and Badiashile level drop is probably more affected by their recent injuries than anything else.

Thanks for the reply !