14 hours ago, Nibs said:

Looked more up for it when he came on today and probably should have come on earlier. Hopefully something to build on and Lavia was well off it today.

So Lavia is 'off' but when Enzo doesn't perform he is the worst player there is. Both players have their limits, both are still young and both can help us be a better side.

I still think we need a creator and the engine in the midfield. With Caicedo and Lavia we basically have two engines. 

I think Enzo + Caicedo can work. 

20 minutes ago, evissy said:

So Lavia is 'off' but when Enzo doesn't perform he is the worst player there is. Both players have their limits, both are still young and both can help us be a better side.

I still think we need a creator and the engine in the midfield. With Caicedo and Lavia we basically have two engines. 

I think Enzo + Caicedo can work. 

Sample size. 

Same reason we thought Enzo was the next big thing after his first handful performances under Potter. Then we watched a year of him doing nothing. 

1 hour ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

Sample size. 

Same reason we thought Enzo was the next big thing after his first handful performances under Potter. Then we watched a year of him doing nothing. 

He is still young and we haven't really locked down our first 11. Lavia is a muscle, Enzo is more of an instrument. Instrument needs protection and support, muscle needs food. Sorry about the blunt generalization. I understand why people don't like Enzo because many here feels he can't protect the backline which is true in many ways. It is refreshing to see a guy like Lavia winning the ball back and making an exciting run. This is why everyone loved Kovacic. His silky runs. On the flip side Kovacic creates nothing basically. Look at City now with him and without Rodri. 

Enzo has the ability to unlock defences and create rhythm to our game. Players like Caicedo and Lavia are more of 'pick the ball back, run and pass'. In a system that wants to control the game with the ball rhythm is big part of it. It is not all that exciting but you essentially defend with the ball. 

We are not very good in it.

 

1 hour ago, evissy said:

So Lavia is 'off' but when Enzo doesn't perform he is the worst player there is. Both players have their limits, both are still young and both can help us be a better side.

I still think we need a creator and the engine in the midfield. With Caicedo and Lavia we basically have two engines. 

I think Enzo + Caicedo can work. 

I think you need both, opposition can be a factor too.

The way they played was using the 2 "engines" to get through the continuous attacks/press and early parts of the game then when it calms a bit put on a creator.

For some weaker teams using the low block, then there won't be a need for 2 "engines" from the start.

 

It's good to have options.

3 hours ago, Simplymo said:

 

I think you need both, opposition can be a factor too.

The way they played was using the 2 "engines" to get through the continuous attacks/press and early parts of the game then when it calms a bit put on a creator.

For some weaker teams using the low block, then there won't be a need for 2 "engines" from the start.

 

It's good to have options.

How about a 3 man midfield.... that could work. I think we just need to find a new trio of Lampard, Ballack and Essien, and all will be ok..... 😄

2 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

How about a 3 man midfield.... that could work. I think we just need to find a new trio of Lampard, Ballack and Essien, and all will be ok..... 😄

I think the process now is not "find" but "build/create/train" youngsters to become like those 3 later down the line. It will take time and lots of trial and error unfortunately.

28 minutes ago, Simplymo said:

I think the process now is not "find" but "build/create/train" youngsters to become like those 3 later down the line. It will take time and lots of trial and error unfortunately.

You'd think we already have the raw material ... 

Caicedo, Fernandez, Lavia, Casadei, Chukwuemeka, Andrey Santos, Veiga, Ugochukwu ... and maybe even the unknown quantity that is Kellyman !

Maybe some of the current crop of academy lads might kick on as well ? e.g. Rak-Sakyi, Dyer, Harrison, Tauriainen

9 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

You'd think we already have the raw material ... 

Caicedo, Fernandez, Lavia, Casadei, Chukwuemeka, Andrey Santos, Veiga, Ugochukwu ... and maybe even the unknown quantity that is Kellyman !

Maybe some of the current crop of academy lads might kick on as well ? e.g. Rak-Sakyi, Dyer, Harrison, Tauriainen

Oh I agree mate. There's a fk load of potential there. I also hope we already have those 3 and maybe even understudies for the 3.

It's just a waiting game now for them to reach that point. We have the youngest squad. I don't think any of them have reached the ages of when lampard, essian and ballack were running midfield yet. Few more years gaining experience in the top flight to go and get to that stage.

Edited November 11, 20241 yr by Simplymo
Grammar

Watched the game again. I thought he was very good. Assist and goal. Played it slow when it needed it slow, through passes when it needed to be.

Good stuff

All due respect - but will honestly wait to see this type of performance against mid and top premier league sides regularly. He tends to have his best games against weaker/lower league  sides. This was another in that category for me. Welcome step in a long road ahead in finally integrating to the side. We were repeatedly carved open yesterday despite Leicester only having 4 shots. Should have been game over by the end of the first half. 

Perhaps his separation has helped the guy focus on his football because its been a circus around him, he needs to turn in more performances like yesterday. 

Caiciedo is turning into a bit of a midfield general, we could really have done with another enforcer/ bit of steel in the mix yesterday, Lavia offers it, and the title chasing sides all have it, a nastiness to win the ball at all costs in a physical battle. Enzo has to show he has that in him alongside his "game.' 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, bluetrooper said:

All due respect - but will honestly wait to see this type of performance against mid and top premier league sides regularly. He tends to have his best games against weaker/lower league  sides. This was another in that category for me. Welcome step in a long road ahead in finally integrating to the side. We were repeatedly carved open yesterday despite Leicester only having 4 shots. Should have been game over by the end of the first half. 

Perhaps his separation has helped the guy focus on his football because its been a circus around him, he needs to turn in more performances like yesterday. 

Caiciedo is turning into a bit of a midfield general, we could really have done with another enforcer/ bit of steel in the mix yesterday, Lavia offers it, and the title chasing sides all have it, a nastiness to win the ball at all costs in a physical battle. Enzo has to show he has that in him alongside his "game.' 

 

 

 

Agreed, want to see the Caicedo and Enzo pairing vs Villa and see Enzo perform to this level vs a good team.

The more I see Enzo starting the more I see Rogers skinning him alive. 

I personally still prefer Lavia beside Caicedo but credit where credit is due, he had  a good game yesterday. I wonder if his personal life was affecting his game.

15 hours ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

 I wonder if his personal life was affecting his game.

Could be. I still think its due to him facing opposition that don't press that intensely. 

23 hours ago, bluetrooper said:

Caiciedo is turning into a bit of a midfield general, we could really have done with another enforcer/ bit of steel in the mix yesterday, Lavia offers it, and the title chasing sides all have it, a nastiness to win the ball at all costs in a physical battle. Enzo has to show he has that in him alongside his "game.'

Well, yes, but remember in terms of midfield general, Little Enzo is the captain of our team and he is the designated general on the pitch. Our manager - Big Enzo - has selected him as the leader and this is often overlooked by many of us who might prefer Caicedo and Lavia. Enzo is offering something that might not always seem obvious or tangible.

3 hours ago, TheCeleryKing said:

Well, yes, but remember in terms of midfield general, Little Enzo is the captain of our team and he is the designated general on the pitch. Our manager - Big Enzo - has selected him as the leader and this is often overlooked by many of us who might prefer Caicedo and Lavia. Enzo is offering something that might not always seem obvious or tangible.

If he's captain, he really needs to step up and deliver both on and off the field, doesn't he? I mean, his performance against Leicester (relegation fodder) was a step in the right direction. He looked brilliant against Championship and League One sides last season, too. Making him captain was a terrible decision. 

Help me out - what is it he offers that isnt obvious or tangible? I can tell you what he doesn't bring to the side both in playing and captaincy terms. 

 

4 hours ago, bluetrooper said:

Making him captain was a terrible decision. 

Help me out - what is it he offers that isnt obvious or tangible? I can tell you what he doesn't bring to the side both in playing and captaincy terms. 

 

It was not MY decision to make him captain - but obviously he has leadership qualities that Caicedo and Lavia do not have.

Caicedo Ecuadors captain isn’t he? 

4 hours ago, bluetrooper said:

If he's captain . . .

 

There is no 'if' - he IS the Captain. He has been chosen by our manager to be the Captain, IF Mr.James is injured or indisposed.  Should he have been chosen?  I don't know - but the way it works in a a team of young players like what we have is that the leaders are self-evident.  On the training ground, around the squad, in the dressing room, etc. Little Enzo has emerged as one of the group leaders.

1 minute ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Caicedo Ecuadors captain isn’t he? 

And he is often our Captain when Enzo is taken off.

 

8 hours ago, TheCeleryKing said:

Enzo is offering something that might not always seem obvious or tangible.

I think I would prefer real to ethereal, especially on a windy day up north. 

10 hours ago, Liam said:

I think I would prefer real to ethereal, especially on a windy day up north. 

Quite a lot of fans wanted Noni to suddenly become ethereal on the weekend when he "blocked" Palmers shot

12 hours ago, TheCeleryKing said:

There is no 'if' - he IS the Captain. He has been chosen by our manager to be the Captain, IF Mr.James is injured or indisposed.  Should he have been chosen?  I don't know - but the way it works in a a team of young players like what we have is that the leaders are self-evident.  On the training ground, around the squad, in the dressing room, etc. Little Enzo has emerged as one of the group leaders.

Yeah, he's captain, I wish he wasnt. I'd have Colwill as my captain. Younger, passionate about the club, cares and is actually starting to look every bit at home in the defence. 

Has Enzo set a great example since turning up? No, he's been a complete bell end on and off the pitch and alienated some of the squad. We look better when he isnt on the pitch. 

Do I want him around next season - not particularly, unless he starts to produce week in and out now. I dont think he is up to Premier League level consistently, has struggled like many expensive Latin players coming to the league and its been two years since we signed him. How much longer do we roll the red carpet out when the team carries him most games. 

As I asked... Help me out - what is it he offers that isnt obvious or tangible that you think he brings to the side? 

 

9 minutes ago, bluetrooper said:

Yeah, he's captain, I wish he wasnt. I'd have Colwill as my captain. Younger, passionate about the club, cares and is actually starting to look every bit at home in the defence. 

Has Enzo set a great example since turning up? No, he's been a complete bell end on and off the pitch and alienated some of the squad. We look better when he isnt on the pitch. 

Do I want him around next season - not particularly, unless he starts to produce week in and out now. I dont think he is up to Premier League level consistently, has struggled like many expensive Latin players coming to the league and its been two years since we signed him. How much longer do we roll the red carpet out when the team carries him most games. 

As I asked... Help me out - what is it he offers that isnt obvious or tangible that you think he brings to the side? 

 

f**k knows what is or isn't obvious or tangible, but i'll give a go at giving Enzo a defence. 

Maresca has spoken numerous times about a lack of natural leadership within the squad. When you have a team of younger players, you have players that are more naturally inclined to lead that will do so. And you have others that have to work on it, something he has identified Reece as needing to do. 

Enzo is a natural leader, he appears vocal on the pitch and his style of play is to try and get on the ball to take control. Whether you believe the quality of his play is up there, his reputation and price tag was built on the fact that he was playing with a level of maturity and experience you wouldn't expect from a 22 year old when we signed him. 

Whilst other players learn how to lead and take responsibilty on the pitch, I think Enzo is already there. He's made mistakes both on and off the pitch, sure. I certainly won't defend the off the field mistakes. He's also a winner, he's won a world cup. We are a club in a pretty unique scenario of having won the champions league recently, yet have a squad filled with people that haven't won anything. In fact, we are littered with losers given our recent struggles in cup finals. Thankfully, this is starting to change, Palmer has won with City, Cucu with Spain, Enzo with Argentina. But its not widespread through the squad, so having Enzo and the mentioned others is vital for now in providing some form of baseline for what it takes to win silverware. 

Don't get me wrong, Lavia and Caicedo are my preffered midfield for now and Enzo certainly has significant steps to take to earn his spot in our side. But im not ready to give up on Enzo, particularly with the form he is showing more recently. I've always thought a more structured set up would suit him, as opposed to Poch's choas ball. Lets see where we are in 6 months time. 

17 minutes ago, Niall1905 said:

f**k knows what is or isn't obvious or tangible, but i'll give a go at giving Enzo a defence. 

Maresca has spoken numerous times about a lack of natural leadership within the squad. When you have a team of younger players, you have players that are more naturally inclined to lead that will do so. And you have others that have to work on it, something he has identified Reece as needing to do. 

Enzo is a natural leader, he appears vocal on the pitch and his style of play is to try and get on the ball to take control. Whether you believe the quality of his play is up there, his reputation and price tag was built on the fact that he was playing with a level of maturity and experience you wouldn't expect from a 22 year old when we signed him. 

Whilst other players learn how to lead and take responsibilty on the pitch, I think Enzo is already there. He's made mistakes both on and off the pitch, sure. I certainly won't defend the off the field mistakes. He's also a winner, he's won a world cup. We are a club in a pretty unique scenario of having won the champions league recently, yet have a squad filled with people that haven't won anything. In fact, we are littered with losers given our recent struggles in cup finals. Thankfully, this is starting to change, Palmer has won with City, Cucu with Spain, Enzo with Argentina. But its not widespread through the squad, so having Enzo and the mentioned others is vital for now in providing some form of baseline for what it takes to win silverware. 

Don't get me wrong, Lavia and Caicedo are my preffered midfield for now and Enzo certainly has significant steps to take to earn his spot in our side. But im not ready to give up on Enzo, particularly with the form he is showing more recently. I've always thought a more structured set up would suit him, as opposed to Poch's choas ball. Lets see where we are in 6 months time. 

another 6 months... that'll be 2 1/2 years.... At what point does the club call time on the signing. 

Perhaps I'm just sentimental to the ghosts of Chelsea captains past... he has a lot to live up to... Couldn't put Thiago in there as file size was too big. Anyhow, I think and hope you get my point.