If we didn't own Cuadrado I probably wouldn't be pushing for us to sign him, but the fact that we do and that Conte really rates him....I just want to see how he turns out under a coach with that type of faith in him.

 

 

a. Conte has not watched any videos of Cuadrado in action in the prem.

b. Conte has seen the videos and still thinks he can make it in England.

c. Conte has seen the videos, agrees with us that he was awful, but thinks he can turn him around.

 

All those options worry me, not because we would be wasting money on his wages, but simply because he would be taking a space up in the squad that could be used much better.

Willian simply must stay. Much talk about his lack of output which is understandable. But I think that is a bit reductive.

I mentioned before secondary assists but of you look at his key passes stat (pass that leads to a shot on target) he's in the top 10 in the Premier League.

Secondly his ability to keep the ball under pressure in tight spaces is without par. This is exceptionally important to keep the ball when we build up from the back and look to move up the field and is something that our other forwards bar Hazard don't really possess.

Finally his work on both transitions is exceptional. We are trying to get Nainggolan in to help us improve in that area. Selling Willian would put as back to square 1.

Make no mistake forget about output etc. I'd sell Hazard in a heartbeat before Willian.

we will struggle to find anyone better, keep him

Willian simply must stay. Much talk about his lack of output which is understandable. But I think that is a bit reductive.

I mentioned before secondary assists but of you look at his key passes stat (pass that leads to a shot on target) he's in the top 10 in the Premier League.

Secondly his ability to keep the ball under pressure in tight spaces is without par. This is exceptionally important to keep the ball when we build up from the back and look to move up the field and is something that our other forwards bar Hazard don't really possess.

Finally his work on both transitions is exceptional. We are trying to get Nainggolan in to help us improve in that area. Selling Willian would put as back to square 1.

Make no mistake forget about output etc. I'd sell Hazard in a heartbeat before Willian.

Even the Hazard from last year? 

Willian simply must stay. Much talk about his lack of output which is understandable. But I think that is a bit reductive.

I mentioned before secondary assists but of you look at his key passes stat (pass that leads to a shot on target) he's in the top 10 in the Premier League.

 

The problem is that he's never been a very productive player. His assists stat in the league is low this year, but it has been each of his three seasons here whilst his key pass stat is relatively unchanged.

 

Also how many of those key passes are set-pieces? Willian has taken a lot of corners and if you look at the Newcastle game for example, he has three key passes to his name but two of those appear to be corners. Doesn't that skew that statistic slightly?

 

 

Finally his work on both transitions is exceptional. We are trying to get Nainggolan in to help us improve in that area. Selling Willian would put as back to square 1.

 

 

He's good at this, he works hard. Is that really worth passing up £50 million when we have players like Pedro and Cuadrado who can do that too? We sold Ramires for half that when he was fairly exceptional in that regard.

 

Make no mistake forget about output etc. I'd sell Hazard in a heartbeat before Willian.

 

I don't think we can ignore output though and selling Hazard when he's a proven matchwinner and could regain form ahead of Willian who is a role player seems a little unambitious on our part.

 

a. Conte has not watched any videos of Cuadrado in action in the prem.

b. Conte has seen the videos and still thinks he can make it in England.

c. Conte has seen the videos, agrees with us that he was awful, but thinks he can turn him around.

 

All those options worry me, not because we would be wasting money on his wages, but simply because he would be taking a space up in the squad that could be used much better.

 

Considering Conte could watch all the film on Cuadrado in the time it would take to watch the Captain America trilogy back-to-back with piss breaks, I think he may well have had a look. But I think the lack of available film also tells it's own tale.

 

Cuadrado had 300ish poor minutes with us. I wouldn't write a young player off in that time so I'm not going to write him off either, especially when the coach likes him, he fits the system and he's looked good for Juve. 

Stats stats stats, the curse of the modern game. What's his assisted assist stat like, or his pre-key pass stat...or his get the ball high up the pitch stat. Stats are ruining people's perseption of a players worth to a team.

Stats stats stats, the curse of the modern game. What's his assisted assist stat like, or his pre-key pass stat...or his get the ball high up the pitch stat. Stats are ruining people's perseption of a players worth to a team.

 

That's probably a popular view in some parts and I absolutely agree that relying solely on stats is pointless. Stats are a tool and should be used accordingly. Willian works hard but does he actually influence games? Does he influence a game to the point where he is worth £50 million or is irreplaceable? I'd say no.

Why have all the fans turned into the clubs bankers ?

 

Who gives a dam how much any club offers us for our POTY 2016?

 

You won't be getting a cut.

 

It won't be spent on top shelf marquee players either, none are available to play for a club with no CL football.

 

So why all the concern about the club turning down a £50m offer ?

Why have all the fans turned into the clubs bankers ?

 

Who gives a dam how much any club offers us for our POTY 2016?

 

You won't be getting a cut.

 

It won't be spent on top shelf marquee players either, none are available to play for a club with no CL football.

 

So why all the concern about the club turning down a £50m offer ?

 

I think supporters are just more clued up on the realities of football finance these days and want to see the club that they invest time and money into being as competitive as they can be with their resources. It's also about being ambitious and wanting to see your team field the best 11 players as possible. For some that includes Willian, for others there might be better alternatives.

Stats stats stats, the curse of the modern game. What's his assisted assist stat like, or his pre-key pass stat...or his get the ball high up the pitch stat. Stats are ruining people's perseption of a players worth to a team.

 

Nonsense. Don't blame the stats for people not being able to understand and properly analyse them.

Anyone honestly claiming that we should turn down 50m for Willian should seriously think about getting their heads examined. The only player in our squad who should demand such a fee is Hazard.

50m for 5 goals and 5 assists is lunacy and we should bite their hands off.

11 goals from 90 odd appearances is horrific for a player of his value.

Edited April 30, 201610 yr by MayosNoun

Nonsense. Don't blame the stats for people not being able to understand and properly analyse them.

 

I agree, statistics can be an extremely useful tool, but a proper analysis cannot rely entirely upon them.

 

That said, put them in the hands of someone who doesn't understand them and you can end up with some pretty serious misconceptions of how the game works.

Nonsense. Don't blame the stats for people not being able to understand and properly analyse them.

How can it be nonsense when you have agreed with me, that was exactly my point.

Anyone honestly claiming that we should turn down 50m for Willian should seriously think about getting their heads examined. The only player in our squad who should demand such a fee is Hazard.

50m for 5 goals and 5 assists is lunacy and we should bite their hands off.

11 goals from 90 odd appearances is horrific for a player of his value.

 

I'm not sure if you did it deliberately or not, but that's a great example to support the point being discussed in the posts above and below.

Stats stats stats, the curse of the modern game. What's his assisted assist stat like, or his pre-key pass stat...or his get the ball high up the pitch stat. Stats are ruining people's perseption of a players worth to a team.

 

unfortunately you are fighting against the tide with this argument.

 

you are correct, obviously, but you may as well not even bother writing it. this argument has been long lost when it comes to talking about football now.

 

people think that more information means a more informed debate but that clearly isn't the case. 

 

this is how the majority of young people (in my experience) view football-  through the hyperbole of edited footage, through computer games and through numbers on the internet. they aren't completely to blame- football is too expensive for people to watch live and often. their first interactions are through the things I mention and eventually that conception calcifies.

 

the result is people who don't have the tools to read the game, and who see eleven independent individuals on the pitch rather than one team- a living thing in itself, made up of people dependent on, and affected by, one another.

How can it be nonsense when you have agreed with me, that was exactly my point.

 

Erm, no. You were blaming the stats. It's not the stats themselves, it's the people misinterpreting and abusing them.

No I wasn't.

Erm, no. You were blaming the stats. It's not the stats themselves, it's the people misinterpreting and abusing them.

to be fair I think you're both saying the same thing. 

 

 

Stats are ruining people's perception of a players worth to a team.

 

to me I think the key word he uses is perception and the key word you use is misinterpret. 

 

you're both right- no one can deny a statistic because it is a fact.

 

the problem is, and I don't what to pick on this poster, when someone says hazard has the same shot accuracy percentage as ronaldo (that's the fact) so in theory he should score as many goals (that's the interpretation). 

 

this person, in the example above, has used a fact to come up with a ridiculous conclusion because he simply doesn't understand what the stat means or how to apply it. 

 

my reading is that you are both making this point.

 

my supplementary point is that I think that the problem is the environment / way football is consumed creates this type of reading. I think if the person simply watched both players he would never come to the same conclusion.

Edited April 30, 201610 yr by g3.7

Just got to look at as is there anyone out there within a reasonable budget better than him out there that wants to come to us? For me not really, he has superb ability more of a build up player than a Cutting edge player would actually like to see him play as part of a 3 man midfield and see how he gets on.

As a rider to this I'd be interested to know how everyone else regards the 'expected goal' (xG) methodology which has become quite popular with the analytics crowd.

Just got to look at as is there anyone out there within a reasonable budget better than him out there that wants to come to us? For me not really, he has superb ability more of a build up player than a Cutting edge player would actually like to see him play as part of a 3 man midfield and see how he gets on.

Agree with this, he's like a more technical Ramires with better hair to fill that ball carrier role. Can't help but feel we would be better though with a pure DM in Matic, a deep playmaker in Fabregas and a box to box with RLC or Naingollan. 

As a rider to this I'd be interested to know how everyone else regards the 'expected goal' (xG) methodology which has become quite popular with the analytics crowd.

What even is this? How is this worked out? and what are the parameters?

How long a term is this used for? Is it game by game or is it season length?

As a mathematician I'm interested to know? It is probably a pretty awful algorithm that doesn't work and won't be sufficiently refined enough but even still it simply can't work properly because luck can't be accounted for and luck plays a huge part in football thus you will never be able to predict this or football accurately.  

What even is this? How is this worked out? and what are the parameters?

How long a term is this used for? Is it game by game or is it season length?

As a mathematician I'm interested to know? It is probably a pretty awful algorithm that doesn't work and won't be sufficiently refined enough but even still it simply can't work properly because luck can't be accounted for and luck plays a huge part in football thus you will never be able to predict this or football accurately.  

 

Short version: http://11tegen11.net/2014/02/10/what-is-expg/

 

Long version: http://cartilagefreecaptain.sbnation.com/2015/10/19/9295905/premier-league-projections-and-new-expected-goals

Short version: http://11tegen11.net/2014/02/10/what-is-expg/

 

Long version: http://cartilagefreecaptain.sbnation.com/2015/10/19/9295905/premier-league-projections-and-new-expected-goals

Wow on a slightly drunken read this is a pretty pathetic attempt, especially for something that they are claiming is 'the next big step that is being taken now in football analytics.' I will try do some further reading in the morning whilst slightly more sober but still it looks pretty abysmal. 

At best this is a betting/score predictor tool and nothing more.

Agree that the statistics can be misleading and the latest football as chess brand of analysis can also miss the point. That said I think the numbers (beyond just goals and assists) as well as his overall contrubution to the team (ability to keep the ball under pressure, work on transition, pressing, tracking back) support the idea that we'd be crazy to sell him.

He provides balance not to mention leadership that are immensely important to the overall cause of the team. Finding someone to replace that even for the price quoted will be very difficult especially with no CL football.

I stand by my statement on Hazard vs Willian as far as importance to the team goes.