34 minutes ago, PedroMendez said:

I thoroughly reject that our squad is just as strong as Tottenhams and Liverpools. We have lacked a lot this season but the fact that we were pushing for top 4 despite the fact we were off the boil the majority of the season suggest that we have a squad capable of top 4.

I'm not saying our squad or signings were any where near as good as it could have been but to suggest our squad isn't capable of top 4 is ridiculous, the majority of our squad have won more premier league trophies than most Tottenham and Liverpool players could ever dream of.  Heck even drinkwater is likely to win more trophies than either tottenham or Liverpool in the not to distant past and future.

Not sure I can agree. Im not saying their overall squad is miles ahead of us (unlike City's and maybe Utd's) but i still feel as if they're better. Out of our main starting XI this season (Courtois, Moses, Azpi, Christensen, Rudiger, Alonso, Kante, Baka, Willian, Hazard, Morata) how many have had a good season? Many of them have been poor if you ask me. Then you look at the likes of our bench.. Cesc, Drinkwater, Barkley, Giroud, Cahill, Luiz... That is not a good bench. Maybe at one point all in their primes it was good, but right now? Its very poor.

Edited May 26, 20188 yr by JJP

Just now, JJP said:

Not sure I can agree. Im not saying their overall squad is miles ahead of us (unlike City's and maybe Utd's) but i still feel as if they're better. Out of our main starting XI this season (Courtois, Moses, Azpi, Christensen, Rudiger, Alonso, Kante, Baka, Willian, Hazard, Morata) how many have had a good season? Many of them have been poor and are past it if you ask me. 

But how much of the bad season/ form is down to the negativity at the club. At minimum 5 of those (Courtois, Azpi, Rudiger, Alonso, Kante and Hazard) get into both Liverpool and Tottenham's first 11, also our bench in theory should be stronger than either team. 

2 minutes ago, PedroMendez said:

But how much of the bad season/ form is down to the negativity at the club. At minimum 5 of those (Courtois, Azpi, Rudiger, Alonso, Kante and Hazard) get into both Liverpool and Tottenham's first 11, also our bench in theory should be stronger than either team. 

Unfortunately we'll never know that, and I agree with those 5. But just how inconsistent have some of those been? Courtois has been prone to quite a few mistakes and Alonso is a bit on and off too. 

Also I find our bench very weak, there isnt anyone there who can change a game or even do anything decent anymore. It may sound harsh but we really do need a massive squad overhaul.

13 minutes ago, JJP said:

Unfortunately we'll never know that, and I agree with those 5. But just how inconsistent have some of those been? Courtois has been prone to quite a few mistakes and Alonso is a bit on and off too. 

Also I find our bench very weak, there isnt anyone there who can change a game or even do anything decent anymore. It may sound harsh but we really do need a massive squad overhaul.

That is the same for all 3 clubs though;

Giroud is better than Llorente and Ings

Cahill/Luiz is a better option than Klavan/Lovern and Foyth?

Emerson and Zappacosta are better than Gomez and Moreno and worse than Rose and Aurier

Barkley and Drinkwater are comparable to a Milner/Lallana? and Winks/Sissoko

Pedro is better than Solanke and Moura (atm)

And who gives a sh*t about backup keepers  

Could our bench be stronger of course but to suggest we are sh*t compared to Spurs and Liverpool is ridiculous 

 

Edited May 26, 20188 yr by PedroMendez

29 minutes ago, PedroMendez said:

That is the same for all 3 clubs though;

Giroud is better than Llorente and Ings

Cahill/Luiz is a better option than Klavan/Lovern and Foyth?

Emerson and Zappacosta are better than Gomez and Moreno and worse than Rose and Aurier

Barkley and Drinkwater are comparable to a Milner/Lallana? and Winks/Sissoko

Pedro is better than Solanke and Moura (atm)

And who gives a sh*t about backup keepers  

Could our bench be stronger of course but to suggest we are sh*t compared to Spurs and Liverpool is ridiculous 

 

But their first team is superior to us which covers for their weak bench, whereas our first team is pretty weak 

13 minutes ago, JJP said:

But their first team is superior to us which covers for their weak bench, whereas our first team is pretty weak 

so half our first 11 get into either teams first 11 and our bench is stronger then either teams bench yet our team can't compete with either?

Just for the sake of it how many spurs players do you put in a Chelsea spurs combined 18 and how many liverpool, I imagine there is more Chelsea in both. 

Edited May 26, 20188 yr by PedroMendez

12 minutes ago, JJP said:

But their first team is superior to us which covers for their weak bench, whereas our first team is pretty weak 

Bollocks that their first team is superior, Son is not that good, the only real top class player at Tottenham are Eriksen and Kane, but you wanna know what the difference between us and them is? Their manager isnt married to a certain formation, and actually plays a system to their strenghts, thats why they look better than they are, thats why players like Moses and Alonso looked good last year( i have to say that i have never been impressed by either), but Conte failed to adapt to the circunstances sorrounding him, and instead of adapting, he moaned non stop about a situation he couldn't change, and WE have suffered as a result.

He needs to go

2 hours ago, Lucashm said:

I thoroughly disagree Conte is to blame for a lot of things, mainly for, no rotation( Emerson who IMO is a better player than Alonso, only started one match until the last month of the season, for a manager who can't stop complaining about squad depht , that is unacceptable), terrible squad morale, no plan B( his plan A also, is too negative and doesnt go down well with a lot of players), lack of subs( barely using players like RLC last season and Bats this season) and not to mention moaning in public.

I am 100% convinced that had Conte fixed some of these problems last season, we would have finished in the top 3, but he didn't and somehow he is the biggest victim of our board and our players are 100% to blame and Conte is free of all the blame???  

A lot of things didnt go according to plan last season, but Conte was not good at his job last season and for me, he has to go.

I’m not absolving Conte of blame but there was a lot more to our not finishing in the top 4 than just him and personally I think the board’s approach to the squad was a big factor and they’ve got previous of it too.

The assertion that we were more than good enough for top four isn’t true, we was always going to be fighting for a place alongside Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal. It was a question of whether the new signings, Morata and Bakayoko especially, could step up and fill the void of Costa and Matic.

We need to get better at listening to the manager about player sales, especially when offloading experience because we leave ourselves short on leadership and experience.

5 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

I’m not absolving Conte of blame but there was a lot more to our not finishing in the top 4 than just him and personally I think the board’s approach to the squad was a big factor and they’ve got previous of it too.

The assertion that we were more than good enough for top four isn’t true, we was always going to be fighting for a place alongside Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal. It was a question of whether the new signings, Morata and Bakayoko especially, could step up and fill the void of Costa and Matic.

We need to get better at listening to the manager about player sales, especially when offloading experience because we leave ourselves short on leadership and experience.

Like i said in previous posts, everybody deserves some share of the blame, but its making me mad how suddenly we are absulote idiots for firing a manager that was A) Underperforming B) Bringing a gigantic amount of negativity to the club and C) Picking up fight with players left right and centre.

That is what is doing my head in, we gave him until the end of the season to fix the mess that we were in( something he was a big part of) and he failed at that.

We are doing the correct thing this time around, we gave him time( more than any manager had previously), he didnt deliver(i am not talking about winning the title here), time to switch things up( and boy am i excited to see sarri here)

1 hour ago, PedroMendez said:

Although I would say that if Conte had not acted as a sour puss all year the squad he had/has is still enough for to come top 4. Negativity breads poor performances and we get enough of it from the press, we do not need our manager also providing it to the squad.

I won’t excuse Conte’s conduct at times during the season because I agree he exuded too much negativity but I also question the temperament within the squad too.

There was quite a few signs of dissenting behaviour within the squad too and it’s something that we have a history of at the club and I think it’s something we need to try out in the future to stop the managers being undermined. 

37 minutes ago, Lucashm said:

That is what is doing my head in, we gave him until the end of the season to fix the mess that we were in( something he was a big part of) and he failed at that.

But did he fail? 

He won a trophy which in itself is great. He spoke more or less from the end of the previous season that the squad needed improvement and needed more depth in quality.

He said going into the season that quality might not be there to meet our objectives and he ended up being right.

 I mean, how many of us are in agreement that the squad needs some serious work? The players we’re talking of replacing are mainly the ones we bought last summer.

I’m not saying he should stay (although I’m not opposed to that) but I do think that over the course of his two seasons he’s done well.

If you said to me when he first took over he’d have won us the league and an FA Cup in two years I’d have bit your hand off for that, especially after season we’d just had with Mourinho. 

25 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

But did he fail? 

He won a trophy which in itself is great. He spoke more or less from the end of the previous season that the squad needed improvement and needed more depth in quality.

He said going into the season that quality might not be there to meet our objectives and he ended up being right.

 I mean, how many of us are in agreement that the squad needs some serious work? The players we’re talking of replacing are mainly the ones we bought last summer.

I’m not saying he should stay (although I’m not opposed to that) but I do think that over the course of his two seasons he’s done well.

If you said to me when he first took over he’d have won us the league and an FA Cup in two years I’d have bit your hand off for that, especially after season we’d just had with Mourinho. 

No he didn't fail and coming 5th and winning the FA cup all in all isn't a bad season, he should have had a stronger squad going into the season than he was given and the board deserve stick for there part in the decline this season. 

However Conte also deserves a lot of the blame, making his gripes vocal and continually vocal, whilst seeming down beat and dejected all season will have effected the squad and will also have had a massive influence on the decline in the squad.

If he had wanted to he could have got that squad a lot further, and rightly he deserves a lot of stick for his actions this season.

He also deserves praise for last season and winning the FA cup this, he has shown that he is a great coach and its a shame that he and the board had the public differences they had.

Edited May 26, 20188 yr by PedroMendez

A lot of good points made on both sides.

Fundamentally two things we can agree on:

1. We bought incredibly poorly last summer. Of the 200m investment, only Rudiger had a good season. 

2. We need a number of new players. I'd say 4 as a minimum to make us competitive and to give either Conte or Sarri a chance avoid the same situation as last season. 

15 hours ago, PedroMendez said:

so half our first 11 get into either teams first 11 and our bench is stronger then either teams bench yet our team can't compete with either?

Just for the sake of it how many spurs players do you put in a Chelsea spurs combined 18 and how many liverpool, I imagine there is more Chelsea in both. 

I doubt it, based on performances this season very few of our players would make their teams

spuds and pool both had a 40 goal player this season. if we had a 40 or even a 30 goal player we would have been top 4 .

5 hours ago, Unclezillion said:

spuds and pool both had a 40 goal player this season. if we had a 40 or even a 30 goal player we would have been top 4 .

But we didn't.

23 hours ago, JJP said:

But their first team is superior to us which covers for their weak bench, whereas our first team is pretty weak 

The only reason they have looked better this season is because they have managers intent on actually coaching instead of whining.

Many of the players starting for both teams would be used an as excuse for Conte's failings had they been here.

15 hours ago, Argo said:

The only reason they have looked better this season is because they have managers intent on actually coaching instead of whining.

Many of the players starting for both teams would be used an as excuse for Conte's failings had they been here.

You don't actually believe that do you?

4 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

You don't actually believe that do you?

You telling me the likes of Karius, Lovren, Henderson, Wijnaldium, Arnold, Milner, Sanchez, Trippier, Davies, Dier, Lamela are any better than the players used to excuse Conte's failings this season? Are Solanke, Vorm, Llorente, Klavan, Ings, Moreno, Sissoko any better than the supposed crap subs we have that are used to excuse Conte?

3 minutes ago, Argo said:

You telling me the likes of Karius, Lovren, Henderson, Wijnaldium, Arnold, Milner, Sanchez, Trippier, Davies, Dier, Lamela are any better than the players used to excuse Conte's failings this season? Are Solanke, Vorm, Llorente, Klavan, Ings, Moreno, Sissoko any better than the supposed crap subs we have that are used to excuse Conte?

Really puts things into perspective doesn't it

yeah,  arsenal are famous for the way they don't mess around in transfers......for f**ks sake. 

4 hours ago, Ahmed_bluehearted said:

1. Bakayoko didn't sign on deadline day
2. Trophies this season won:
Liverpool: 0
Arsenal: 0
Chelsea: 1
 

3 hours ago, TomCFC85 said:

1. Bakayoko didn't sign on deadline day
2. Trophies this season won:
Liverpool: 0
Arsenal: 0
Chelsea: 1
 

Tbf Fabinho has just happened so let's see that tally next season when they have him. 

On the other side of the coin, Liverpool also made one of the most procrastinated signings of late in Keita who won't join until how long after they've signed him? Sure could have used him against Madrid 

Willing to bet, we'll see some movement tomorrow or Friday.