11 hours ago, Imran_CFC said:

But Jorginho can't defend like Fabinho - Fabinho can play a limited role in the buildup because he is incredible from a defensive standpoint, the guy has been Liverpool's best CB this season which speaks volume of his defensive attributes. Jorginho does not have that defensive capability therefore having him purely in the team to play 5 yard passes does not make sense, the Silva point was tongue in cheek because you seem to be limiting Jorginho's role massively and something a CB can do if required if we play 3 CB's.

My question stands that against a low block do we really need 3 CB's and a double pivot which includes Jorginho who you state has a role of playing 5 yard passes. I don't think its too much to ask of Jorginho to play more high risk balls forward which he clearly has the ability to do and for some strange reason you are against.

Even @Gol15 the biggest supporter of Jorginho will accept that Jorginho needs to get the ball forward on more occasions then he does currently, against Sheffield he had numerous opportunities to get the ball in to Werner early and he ignored the runs.

Like you said, Jorginho basically put you on a bind. You basically protecting player who doesn't contribute greatly offensively and that is the story with Jorginho.

You keep asking him to make risky pass and like I said previously, I am not against it, in fact i want him to do more but he simply cant. Jorginho does not have the passing power to make consistent line breaking pass. If he tried to do this consistently, it will get intercepted a lot and it will be a nightmare. Next time you watch him watch the speed of hiss pass and compare it to player like Mount or even kante. Watch when he pass with his left foot and right foot (he can't pass with his left).

For what you from want from our dm, Gilmour is probably the best in our team in term of line breaking pass but Gilmour is very2 raw, his instinct is to pass forward everytime which make the game very chaotic. He need to learn to control the tempo of the game better first and probably also get better physically

 

4 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Like you said, Jorginho basically put you on a bind. You basically protecting player who doesn't contribute greatly offensively and that is the story with Jorginho.

You keep asking him to make risky pass and like I said previously, I am not against it, in fact i want him to do more but he simply cant. Jorginho does not have the passing power to make consistent line breaking pass. If he tried to do this consistently, it will get intercepted a lot and it will be a nightmare. Next time you watch him watch the speed of hiss pass and compare it to player like Mount or even kante. Watch when he pass with his left foot and right foot (he can't pass with his left).

For what you from want from our dm, Gilmour is probably the best in our team in term of line breaking pass but Gilmour is very2 raw, his instinct is to pass forward everytime which make the game very chaotic. He need to learn to control the tempo of the game better first and probably also get better physically

 

With a back 3 we dont need a DM at all, thats the job of the 3rd centre back in the set up, to step up and take that space, this is why having Jogrinho in the team with a back 5 is a complete waste of a position. That should be taken by a progressive midfielder who is looking to move the ball forward at all time, can make the slide rule passes, the 40 yard diagonals into space etc. Him doing well against 2 sides that sat back is all well and good but in my opinion someone like Gilmour would have done much better as his first move is always forward.

1 hour ago, dkw said:

With a back 3 we dont need a DM at all, thats the job of the 3rd centre back in the set up, to step up and take that space, this is why having Jogrinho in the team with a back 5 is a complete waste of a position. That should be taken by a progressive midfielder who is looking to move the ball forward at all time, can make the slide rule passes, the 40 yard diagonals into space etc. Him doing well against 2 sides that sat back is all well and good but in my opinion someone like Gilmour would have done much better as his first move is always forward.

Our middle cb is Thiago Silva, Thiago Silva can't play stopper.

Offensively, Gilmour is too raw. I can't remember which game that was maybe against Leicester, Gilmour keep giving the ball away which led to transition after transition opportunity for our opp. He need to add a bit of Jorginho to his game. 

 

Where he is very, very "special" is his total absence of any pace whatsoever. I don't think I have ever seen a slower central midfielder in the EPL. Tom Huddleston comes close but he was a physical lump as was Mikel.

Jorgi's flat-foot speed and how simple it is to play round him was perfectly illustrated in the build up to the Rudiger own goal.

33 minutes ago, just said:

Where he is very, very "special" is his total absence of any pace whatsoever. I don't think I have ever seen a slower central midfielder in the EPL. Tom Huddleston comes close but he was a physical lump as was Mikel.

Jorgi's flat-foot speed and how simple it is to play round him was perfectly illustrated in the build up to the Rudiger own goal.

Never mattered with Mikel - the first five yards were in his head. 

7 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Like you said, Jorginho basically put you on a bind. You basically protecting player who doesn't contribute greatly offensively and that is the story with Jorginho.

You keep asking him to make risky pass and like I said previously, I am not against it, in fact i want him to do more but he simply cant. Jorginho does not have the passing power to make consistent line breaking pass. If he tried to do this consistently, it will get intercepted a lot and it will be a nightmare. Next time you watch him watch the speed of hiss pass and compare it to player like Mount or even kante. Watch when he pass with his left foot and right foot (he can't pass with his left).

For what you from want from our dm, Gilmour is probably the best in our team in term of line breaking pass but Gilmour is very2 raw, his instinct is to pass forward everytime which make the game very chaotic. He need to learn to control the tempo of the game better first and probably also get better physically

 

The bind is not just that he doesn't contribute offensively but he doesn't contribute defensively either especially on the transition which is the most likely avenue that teams can hurt us. 

Not sure what you are getting with on Passing Power, we have all seen he has the ability to pick a pass and play the ball in behind, he played an incredible ball to Tammy against Watford and did something similar against Southampton for Werner. Your argument he doesnt have it in his locker is just nonsense, the problem with Jorginho is that he does not attempt it enough. He played numerous balls over the top in his first season with us & had it not been for our incompetent strikers he wouldve had a decent amount of Assists (Pretty sure there was a video knocking around of the number of chances he created without anyone being able to finish), the frustration is that since his first season with us he has regressed in that aspect of his game with us.

You seem to be making an assumption that we as fans want him to attempt a line breaking pass every time he has the ball and lose possession each time, that is not the case. Having seen our front line making a number of runs in behind which are being ignored we want him to attempt more high risk balls then he is doing currently.

1 hour ago, Imran_CFC said:

The bind is not just that he doesn't contribute offensively but he doesn't contribute defensively either especially on the transition which is the most likely avenue that teams can hurt us. 

Not sure what you are getting with on Passing Power, we have all seen he has the ability to pick a pass and play the ball in behind, he played an incredible ball to Tammy against Watford and did something similar against Southampton for Werner. Your argument he doesnt have it in his locker is just nonsense, the problem with Jorginho is that he does not attempt it enough. He played numerous balls over the top in his first season with us & had it not been for our incompetent strikers he wouldve had a decent amount of Assists (Pretty sure there was a video knocking around of the number of chances he created without anyone being able to finish), the frustration is that since his first season with us he has regressed in that aspect of his game with us.

You seem to be making an assumption that we as fans want him to attempt a line breaking pass every time he has the ball and lose possession each time, that is not the case. Having seen our front line making a number of runs in behind which are being ignored we want him to attempt more high risk balls then he is doing currently.

It is absolutely not non sense, this is obvious. Both his assist to tammy and Werner were one touch pass, where he generate the power using the momentum of the pass and the one to Werner was underhit (it was longer range).

Rather than debating about this, I suggest you watch replay of our game or watch our next game and pay attention to the speed of his pass. 

10 hours ago, Bob stark said:

If you are talking about Sarriball then yeah, sarri want his dm to make 1 million pass per game, but that is not true for possession based vs counter attacking team.

Pep played fernandinho in his based midfield which it allow him to play two 10s in front of it. If kante is available for reasonable price, pep will sign him and stick him in fernadinho role.

That is the beauty of football. You can say I want to play possession football but the way you do it really depend on the player that you have. Of course this work to some degree, you probably can't play possession football with sheffield united squad for example. 

 

Sarriball is nothing else but possession based football. Tiki Taka is the same thing. Pep wanted to buy Jorginho, not Kante - in fact nobody played Kante like that except Lampard this season and it didn't do him any good.

2 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Our middle cb is Thiago Silva, Thiago Silva can't play stopper.

 

 

What makes you say that? He`s played that position for most of his teams at times.

2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Sarriball is nothing else but possession based football. Tiki Taka is the same thing. Pep wanted to buy Jorginho, not Kante - in fact nobody played Kante like that except Lampard this season and it didn't do him any good.

Now you are moving to dangerous territory. Sarri possession football is very2 specific whereas possession football is very2 general. 

Just watch pep city, Barca and Bayern. All of them play heavy possession football but they are different because simply pep adapt his tactic to his team. 

Of course pep didn't want to sign kante, we won’t sell him. 

4 minutes ago, dkw said:

What makes you say that? He`s played that position for most of his teams at times.

??? 

Stopper mean he challenge player up high rather than dropping back. Silva is afraid of pace, just watch how he defend

Just now, Bob stark said:

??? 

Stopper mean he challenge player up high rather than dropping back. Silva is afraid of pace, just watch how he defend

So Jorginho isnt scared of pace 😬 He turns slower than milk.....

These are the main reasons for playing 3 at the back. 

Their job is to recover the ball rather than be passively defensive, the central CB basically becomes a deep lying Midfielder. This takes defensive duties away from the midfield as the 3rd CB moves out of defence to cover the space left by the midfield. It also allows the CB to step out of defence and bring the ball up the pitch. It frees the wing backs to start further up the pitch, the CB`s can provide cover when they attack.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Bob stark said:

Now you are moving to dangerous territory. Sarri possession football is very2 specific whereas possession football is very2 general. 

Just watch pep city, Barca and Bayern. All of them play heavy possession football but they are different because simply pep adapt his tactic to his team. 

Of course pep didn't want to sign kante, we won’t sell him. 

Nothing that I said is dangerous at all it's just the truth - Nobody can deny that Napoli played possession-based football and that Sarri with Jorginho transformed us from being a counter-attacking team to a possession-based team.

In fact one of the managers that praised Sarri the most was Pep because of the possession based football that Napoli played at the time, Napoli had less technical talent in comparison to that Barcelona generation but make no mistake their movement without the ball and constantly making runs and playing into space was a masterpiece of a tactic that almost made them win the league for the first time since the 80's when they had Maradona.

Like I said already Pep wanted Jorginho, not Kante. We got him because of Sarri that was coming to be our manager and there is no denying that either. Here is what Pep said about Jorginho:

"No, I'm not disappointed...We tried, but at the end all my advice for the players is that they have to go where they want to go. For the guy, it would have been a mistake for him and for us if he had decided to come here when he wanted to go with Maurizio and Chelsea. So it is important that English football has received an exceptional player and at the end if they want to come, it's better they come. If he decides to go to Chelsea for the reasons he has explained or will explain, then all the best for him."

Also it was actually Sarri that managed to squeeze out the best out of Kante offensively speaking - For Sarri Kante scored the most goals and assists in the league in 1 season that he has ever done, 4 goals 4 assists if I remember correctly.

17 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Also it was actually Sarri that managed to squeeze out the best out of Kante offensively speaking - For Sarri Kante scored the most goals and assists in the league in 1 season that he has ever done, 4 goals 4 assists if I remember correctly.

I think this just highlights that Kante is a fish out of water in a role where he is playing further forward. Considering where he was being played by Sarri, those numbers really aren't anywhere near productive enough. I don't think Kante "fits" into a possession based side ... he needs to be in a team set up to counter attack, where his ball-winning ability and ground coverage is world class and absolutely key. No surprise that his best seasons have been at Leicester, and in Conte's title-winning side. Jorginho is the converse ... good in a possession-based system, (as long as he isn't pressed LOL) but lacking pace and vision for a counter-attacking side.

It will be interesting to see if Tuchel is able to craft a midfield that is better than the sum of the parts he has available. Most of them are decent enough, but there is definitely scope to coach individual improvements to all, and doubly so as a collective.

55 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

It is absolutely not non sense, this is obvious. Both his assist to tammy and Werner were one touch pass, where he generate the power using the momentum of the pass and the one to Werner was underhit (it was longer range).

Rather than debating about this, I suggest you watch replay of our game or watch our next game and pay attention to the speed of his pass. 

Is your argument that Jorginho doesn't have the power to play the ball in behind?

1 minute ago, Sexyfootball said:

I think this just highlights that Kante is a fish out of water in a role where he is playing further forward. Considering where he was being played by Sarri, those numbers really aren't anywhere near productive enough. I don't think Kante "fits" into a possession based side ... he needs to be in a team set up to counter attack, where his ball-winning ability and ground coverage is world class and absolutely key. No surprise that his best seasons have been at Leicester, and in Conte's title-winning side. Jorginho is the converse ... good in a possession-based system, (as long as he isn't pressed LOL) but lacking pace and vision for a counter-attacking side.

It will be interesting to see if Tuchel is able to craft a midfield that is better than the sum of the parts he has available. Most of them are decent enough, but there is definitely scope to coach individual improvements to all, and doubly so as a collective.

Yea it might not be enough of an end product but it's still the most he has ever done in a single season, that tells this whole other story like you say...

22 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Nothing that I said is dangerous at all it's just the truth - Nobody can deny that Napoli played possession-based football and that Sarri with Jorginho transformed us from being a counter-attacking team to a possession-based team.

In fact one of the managers that praised Sarri the most was Pep because of the possession based football that Napoli played at the time, Napoli had less technical talent in comparison to that Barcelona generation but make no mistake their movement without the ball and constantly making runs and playing into space was a masterpiece of a tactic that almost made them win the league for the first time since the 80's when they had Maradona.

Like I said already Pep wanted Jorginho, not Kante. We got him because of Sarri that was coming to be our manager and there is no denying that either. Here is what Pep said about Jorginho:

"No, I'm not disappointed...We tried, but at the end all my advice for the players is that they have to go where they want to go. For the guy, it would have been a mistake for him and for us if he had decided to come here when he wanted to go with Maurizio and Chelsea. So it is important that English football has received an exceptional player and at the end if they want to come, it's better they come. If he decides to go to Chelsea for the reasons he has explained or will explain, then all the best for him."

Also it was actually Sarri that managed to squeeze out the best out of Kante offensively speaking - For Sarri Kante scored the most goals and assists in the league in 1 season that he has ever done, 4 goals 4 assists if I remember correctly.

Hmm I have never said that Sarriball isn't a possession based system. it is a specific possession based system. 

Sarriball worked with Napoli yet it failed big time with Juventus and that Juventus team had far better talent wise compare to his Napoli team. I don't want to go into detail otherwise it will be a long article but imo Sarriball is just too specific. 

I have never denied that pep wanted Jorginho, I said that if pep can get kante, he will sign kante and stick him in fernadinho role.

Hmm, Kante won the wc playing as dm to protect Pogba.

35 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

I I don't think Kante "fits" into a possession based side ... he needs to be in a team set up to counter attack, where his ball-winning ability and ground coverage is world class and absolutely key. 

 

Pep won two league titles playing fernandinho as his dm. 

Edited February 10, 20215 yr by Bob stark

8 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Hmm I have never said that Sarriball isn't a possession based system. it is a specific possession based system. 

Sarriball worked with Napoli yet it failed big time with Juventus and that Juventus team had far better talent wise compare to his Napoli team. I don't want to go into detail otherwise it will be a long article but imo Sarriball is just too specific. 

I have never denied that pep wanted Jorginho, I said that if pep can get kante, he will sign kante and stick him in fernadinho role.

Hmm, Kante won the wc playing as dm to protect Pogba.

You said that it's somehow "dangerous territory" to state that Sarri plays possession based football.

You're just speculating here, if we go by evidence we find that nobody before Lampard used Kante in that way so you can't tell me that suddenly everyone would use Kante in a different way when he's 29-30 while not doing it when he was the best player in the league!

France won the WC while NOT playing possession based football - Semi final against Belgium they had 30% possession and even in the final against a weaker opponent they allowed Croatia to have the ball most of the time, they won the final super easy but also with 30-something % possession so in that sense Kante could do well.

The only game in the knockout phase of that WC where France had the majority of possession was against Uruguay (60%) but that's due to Uruguay focusing on being more defensive, one factor for that is because they were missing Cavani while France didn't miss anyone - but if you watched that game, Uruguay started the game very well and had the first chance due to them pressing France and France couldn't deal with that but when the intensity of the press stopped France regain control of that particular game but in the end of the day France had 2 shots on target and scored 2 goals - first goal after a free kick that was header (nothing to do with Kante's role) and second goal was a shot from distance from Griezmann that Muslera should have stopped - it was above all the mistake of the Uruguayan keeper there and Griezmann didn't even celebrate that goal.

It's almost like you didn't watch Kante playing at the base of the midfield for us in recent times - Last season Kante had 2 errors leading to goal he was slipping and what not and this season he lost the ball against Man City with a random pass/clearance that led to the Man City counter and goal, we couldn't dominate games at all with him in the base of the midfield so I may be biased but that project has failed already - Tuchel said that he doesn't see Kante being alone in the base of the midfield like Lampard played him, Tuchel said that he sees Kante at his best with another number 6 - which isn't different from how Conte used Kante for example.

You should compare Fernandinho to the times when we had a more classical DM that could hold on to the ball and pass - Matic.

Kante's best game comes when he has a more free role, less disciplined because then he can read the game, roam and win the ball back, he's simply not a natural DM like Matic, Fernandinho and so on. Tuchel has said this also, Kante needs more freedom for his natural role where he will push forward and win the ball he naturally doesn't sit deep like Fernandinho/Jorginho/Matic and so on...

23 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

You said that it's somehow "dangerous territory" to state that Sarri plays possession based football.

You're just speculating here, if we go by evidence we find that nobody before Lampard used Kante in that way so you can't tell me that suddenly everyone would use Kante in a different way when he's 29-30 while not doing it when he was the best player in the league!

France won the WC while NOT playing possession based football - Semi final against Belgium they had 30% possession and even in the final against a weaker opponent they allowed Croatia to have the ball most of the time, they won the final super easy but also with 30-something % possession so in that sense Kante could do well.

The only game in the knockout phase of that WC where France had the majority of possession was against Uruguay (60%) but that's due to Uruguay focusing on being more defensive, one factor for that is because they were missing Cavani while France didn't miss anyone - but if you watched that game, Uruguay started the game very well and had the first chance due to them pressing France and France couldn't deal with that but when the intensity of the press stopped France regain control of that particular game but in the end of the day France had 2 shots on target and scored 2 goals - first goal after a free kick that was header (nothing to do with Kante's role) and second goal was a shot from distance from Griezmann that Muslera should have stopped - it was above all the mistake of the Uruguayan keeper there and Griezmann didn't even celebrate that goal.

It's almost like you didn't watch Kante playing at the base of the midfield for us in recent times - Last season Kante had 2 errors leading to goal he was slipping and what not and this season he lost the ball against Man City with a random pass/clearance that led to the Man City counter and goal, we couldn't dominate games at all with him in the base of the midfield so I may be biased but that project has failed already - Tuchel said that he doesn't see Kante being alone in the base of the midfield like Lampard played him, Tuchel said that he sees Kante at his best with another number 6 - which isn't different from how Conte used Kante for example.

You should compare Fernandinho to the times when we had a more classical DM that could hold on to the ball and pass - Matic.

Kante's best game comes when he has a more free role, less disciplined because then he can read the game, roam and win the ball back, he's simply not a natural DM like Matic, Fernandinho and so on. Tuchel has said this also, Kante needs more freedom for his natural role where he will push forward and win the ball he naturally doesn't sit deep like Fernandinho/Jorginho/Matic and so on...

Maybe I said it wrongly, what i meant was it was dangerous saying that all possession based system is the same. 

I have never said France play possession based football, I said he play as holder for. france.

Fernandinho is a box to box player who hunt in shaktar, he was converted into sitting dm by pellegrini to compensate for toure. 

Of course, Kante is better as mobile destroyer. Fernadinho is also better as box to box, Reece james is also better as rb not wb, mount is Jorginho is better as lone holder in 3 mid, cho is better as lw. 

Is kante consistent with his passing as dm? Nope,so how do you compensate for that, play cb who is good on the ball aka thiago silva or put kova close to him so all he have to do is make simple pass to kova. So what do you get from kante, player who can really2 protect your backline. It was the same with city, fernandinho is so good that pep can play two legit no 10 in front of him. 

This is the beauty of football, you change your setup based on your player to get the best out of them. 

In our current system, for example we play kante next to kova. We can ask azpi to push forward more against weak opp so he can deliver his trademark deep cross without being afraid of conceding counter. We can also play Havertz/Mount there  instead of kova if kova didn't play well without being afraid defensively 

 

Edited February 10, 20215 yr by Bob stark

@Bob stark Well my question to you is, didn't Lampard already try that and had mixed success at best?

Can we lock this thread, seeing these arguments going around in circles is making me dizzy.

It’s getting close to the Salah/KDB levels of tediously boring now. 

7 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

Can we lock this thread, seeing these arguments going around in circles is making me dizzy.

It’s getting close to the Salah/KDB levels of tediously boring now. 

What are your thoughts about pushing Jonathan Bamba at the level of a transfer target as Alex Sandro? Bamba-Sandro, Bamdro. 

9 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

What are your thoughts about pushing Jonathan Bamba at the level of a transfer target as Alex Sandro? Bamba-Sandro, Bamdro. 

I frankly couldn’t give a sh*t but that’s probably due to having an awful, awful day more than anything. 

7 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

I frankly couldn’t give a sh*t but that’s probably due to having an awful, awful day more than anything. 

Ok sorry, make yourself a warmy drink maybe it helps