Credit for putting away the penalty. Tough game all round and never really had it under control. 

Been a Chelsea fan since 97/98 and Jorginho is one of the most underrated players we’ve ever had in that time. He gets so much unwarranted hate and I really don’t understand it, maybe there’s a lot of subtleties to his game people don’t see as opposed to someone like Kante who runs about a lot more

40 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

Been a Chelsea fan since 97/98 and Jorginho is one of the most underrated players we’ve ever had in that time. He gets so much unwarranted hate and I really don’t understand it, maybe there’s a lot of subtleties to his game people don’t see as opposed to someone like Kante who runs about a lot more

That isn't totally true though, he was getting better towards the end of the game.

In the first half he was just terrible and opted to just do the simple stuff instead of trying to take hold of the game. 

27 minutes ago, Deino said:

That isn't totally true though, he was getting better towards the end of the game.

In the first half he was just terrible and opted to just do the simple stuff instead of trying to take hold of the game. 

There are a lot of old school fans on here that will not rate Jorginho even after a good game. 

However, that first 45 minutes pretty much confirmed a lot of criticism towards him was valid. The first 20 minutes he was horrendous, you can't take that long to grow into a game, the harsh reality is, is that Jorginho does lack physicality. Even though I do think "physicality" is a very overused word on this forum. There were instances when the Sheffield midfield looked like Zidane going past him, it was so easy for them. 

I think Kovacic is by far his best partner though, and honestly I prefer the Kovacic-Jorginho midfield over anything we can currently play there. It's not ideal, it's not the best, and it's not a midield that's going to win us titles but it is the best one we've got so far. But games like that really show Jorginho's limitations. 
 

1 hour ago, Slojo said:

But games like that really show Jorginho's limitations. 

 

It was against Sheffield United,not exactly a good team who can attack through the middle. 

So who can we play jogavic against? 

 

59 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

It was against Sheffield United,not exactly a good team who can attack through the middle. 

So who can we play jogavic against? 

 

What you mean like our last 4 games? If it wasn't for that partnership we wouldn't have gotten into the top 4 last season. We won most of our games last season with those two playing in the pivot together. 

Again, I'm not saying it's ideal, or a partnership that's going to win you titles, but I think out of all our midfielders that's the best option to go with. What people have to accept is that we don't actually have any defensive midfielders that can give us a good solid defensive physical prowess in the midfield. So, we have to play with what we've got for the time being, we may as well go for distribution and retention, you get that with Jorginho-Kovacic. 

I hope Tuchel keeps persisting with it, unless it does become completely vulnerable, but as of now, I think it's working. We still won, and Sheffield aren't as sh*t as many people think they are, they've only just recently started to turn things around in 2021. 

6 hours ago, timetowaste said:

Been a Chelsea fan since 97/98 and Jorginho is one of the most underrated players we’ve ever had in that time. He gets so much unwarranted hate and I really don’t understand it, maybe there’s a lot of subtleties to his game people don’t see as opposed to someone like Kante who runs about a lot more

Ah the old "If you don't rate him then you don't understand football" argument, always a good one that. I seem to remember the Goonies using that for Ozil a lot....

35 minutes ago, dkw said:

Ah the old "If you don't rate him then you don't understand football" argument, always a good one that. I seem to remember the Goonies using that for Ozil a lot....

Can I ask you @dkw on current form would you start Kante or Gilmour ahead of him and break up kova/Jorginho?

35 minutes ago, dkw said:

Ah the old "If you don't rate him then you don't understand football" argument, always a good one that. I seem to remember the Goonies using that for Ozil a lot....

The way he played the false defensive midfielder last night in the first half was a joy to behold

2 hours ago, Slojo said:

What you mean like our last 4 games? If it wasn't for that partnership we wouldn't have gotten into the top 4 last season. We won most of our games last season with those two playing in the pivot together. 

Again, I'm not saying it's ideal, or a partnership that's going to win you titles, but I think out of all our midfielders that's the best option to go with. What people have to accept is that we don't actually have any defensive midfielders that can give us a good solid defensive physical prowess in the midfield. So, we have to play with what we've got for the time being, we may as well go for distribution and retention, you get that with Jorginho-Kovacic. 

I hope Tuchel keeps persisting with it, unless it does become completely vulnerable, but as of now, I think it's working. We still won, and Sheffield aren't as sh*t as many people think they are, they've only just recently started to turn things around in 2021. 

Yeah. I agree. The way i see it is the retention / distribution is a form of defence. It compensates for the lack of physicality. But it has to be perfectly honed, and there is little margin for error. Sheffield United seemed to have a tactic to get at Jorginho and it worked in the first half. So there’s work to be done there. I’m quite optimistic on that front but there will still be the problem of the counterattacks where our opponents just seem to cut through us like a knife through butter. I’m not sure what the solution is there, if any. 

You have to give praise to Jorginho. Under Tuchel he has once more been one of our key figures. Remember his job is to drop to help center backs to distribute the ball, be a link to attack. For Tuchel he is now an important player. On top of that he scores the penalties. He also made some nice recoveries, a couple of nice passes and couple of nice tricks as he received the ball to get out of pressure. Not saying Billy couldn't do all that but Jorginho should get less stick and more praise for his contributions.

32 minutes ago, Dean said:

Yeah. I agree. The way i see it is the retention / distribution is a form of defence. It compensates for the lack of physicality. But it has to be perfectly honed, and there is little margin for error. Sheffield United seemed to have a tactic to get at Jorginho and it worked in the first half. So there’s work to be done there. I’m quite optimistic on that front but there will still be the problem of the counterattacks where our opponents just seem to cut through us like a knife through butter. I’m not sure what the solution is there, if any. 

It's all about having the balance. We have most of the time 70% possession but in those 30% when we don't have the ball the opposition gets to have shots from inside of our box, Rudiger scores an own goal and also if Chilwell wasn't so lucky Sheffield gets a penalty as well.

This isn't that much different from Lampard pointing our individual errors but it must be said that we have a much more stable defense now because we don't attack with as many players as possible so we are less vulnerable.

At least with Jorginho in the starting lineup we have more stability and structure and Kovacic plays the best with him.

I watched Liverpool-Man City and it was very obvious that Man City didn't rush anything, they let Liverpool have the ball in the first half and quickly tried to punish them but they missed a penalty.
Later on they just kept their form defensively while Liverpool just couldn't play with the ball, their possession led to one through ball that gave them a penalty but other than that they were very uncomfortable and got punished while under-pressure, Klopp's tactic was to have a stable defensive unit and to quickly attack with the front 3 or with crosses from the full backs. Man City on the other hand is comfortable in both having possession and also waiting for their chance because their movement is just so good so they clearly have an upper hand. 

We have been winning games now without risking much, Chilwell started to pass into space now and it resulted in a very clinical goal for example and Tuchel has said that we do have a team that can play possession based football so why not use it...

Edited February 8, 20215 yr by Gol15

I think he has looked 100percent better recently. The more fluid style with greater movement around him has helped him to play the more natural role he had under Sarri. Kovacic has also looked better with more a free role to run in midfield.

That said we are yet to be seriously challenged on the counter which as we all know is where Jorginho's weaknesses lie. Be interesting to see how the current approach goes, particularly against a ruthless countering team like Atletico in a few weeks.

31 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

It's all about having the balance. We have most of the time 70% possession but in those 30% when we don't have the ball the opposition gets to have shots from inside of our box, Rudiger scores an own goal and also if Chilwell wasn't so lucky Sheffield gets a penalty as well.

This isn't that much different from Lampard pointing our individual errors but it must be said that we have a much more stable defense now because we don't attack with as many players as possible so we are less vulnerable.

At least with Jorginho in the starting lineup we have more stability and structure and Kovacic plays the best with him.

I watched Liverpool-Man City and it was very obvious that Man City didn't rush anything, they let Liverpool have the ball in the first half and quickly tried to punish them but they missed a penalty.
Later on they just kept their form defensively while Liverpool just couldn't play with the ball, their possession led to one through ball that gave them a penalty but other than that they were very uncomfortable and got punished while under-pressure, Klopp's tactic was to have a stable defensive unit and to quickly attack with the front 3 or with crosses from the full backs. Man City on the other hand is comfortable in both having possession and also waiting for their chance because their movement is just so good so they clearly have an upper hand. 

We have been winning games now without risking much, Chilwell started to pass into space now and it resulted in a very clinical goal for example and Tuchel has said that we do have a team that can play possession based football so why not use it...

I think a lot of issues stems from the fact that Jorginho doesn't offer much outside of dropping to cover space and making safe passes to connect defence to attack. 

We as a team don't have anyone that can force the play and take the game by the scruff of the neck like Cesc used to.

I thought Sarri brought Jorginho in to be a Pirlo/Xavi-type of player. Not a poor man's Mikel. If we want to win titles, we need Jorginho to perform better or upgrade on him

I enjoy watching Jorginho play especially alongside Kovacic and in a setup which is more dynamic where ha has various options to progress the ball forward. He seemed somewhat rattled in the first half which impacted his distribution which was somewhat worrisome but he gradually improved as the game wore on but unsure if it was Jorginho upping his game or Sheffield getting tired and giving him more time on the ball.

The main gripe I have with Jorginho and the reason why I have started questioning Jorginho's role in the team is the lack of penetrative passes, we know he has the ability to make quick first time balls in behind as he has done so in the past to Tammy and Werner but he just does not attempt them nearly enough. For example last night he received the ball on the half turn and created space for himself and Werner made a great run in behind and Jorginho spotted the run and ignored it laying the ball off to Kova instead.

I remember Fabregas telling a story about Mourinho where he came in at HT and he had a go at him for having a 90+% passing accuracy, he basically said to him that you are my creative outlet and you clearly are not trying high risk passes nearly enough. Tuchel needs to have a word with him to attempt more high risk breaking the line passes as 1 high risk pass per 10 games is not nearly enough.  

 

3 minutes ago, Deino said:

I think a lot of issues stems from the fact that Jorginho doesn't offer much outside of dropping to cover space and making safe passes to connect defence to attack. 

We as a team don't have anyone that can force the play and take the game by the scruff of the neck like Cesc used to.

I thought Sarri brought Jorginho in to be a Pirlo/Xavi-type of player. Not a poor man's Mikel. If we want to win titles, we need Jorginho to perform better or upgrade on him

The issue of Chilwell being reckless and making a penalty that wasn't given only due to a small offside isn't due to what a midfielder doesn't offer, same with Rudiger scoring an own goal - no team has such an epic midfielder that simply makes his defenders just walk around for 90 minutes without having any responsibility because he's taking every ball and no cross ever comes to his defender that he has to deal with, that is just fantasy. Our defense must deal with some crosses, with some situations that can come up during a game, there is no other way to go around that.

I can argue that if we are to win something again we must find a new T.Silva for next season first and foremost because regardless of who has played in the midfield it was our backline that couldn't do the job, that's even before Jorginho came to the club;

The issue of poor defending was even before Conte but for example Conte tried to hide the issue by playing very defensively, this lineup of Tuchel from the last game isn't that much different from Conte - Against Barcelona away we played a 3-4-2-1 with Rudiger-Christensen-Azpilicueta and we had Kante and Fabregas in the midfield and we lost 3:0 and got eliminated from the CL, that's just one example but worse teams beat us that season and we can argue that Kante and Fabregas of that time were better players that our current midfielders but it made no difference - we simply weren't going to win anything with a defense like that regardless of who was in the midfield.

Another example is that Sarri wanted to hide the issue by not allowing the opposition to have much of the ball - We got eliminated from the FA Cup while playing Azpilicueta, Rudiger, Alonso... Just another example.

My point is that all teams rely on their defenders to do their job, Liverpool couldn't win without a good defender and keeper and without their best defender it really doesn't matter what their midfielders offer defensively they simply are a worse team - in contrast Man City is missing a real striker and their best player KDB that last season had 20 assists and this season 10 assists is also missing but they have their defenders and they won the game comfortably even when Liverpool had their best attackers.

Sarri with his system didn't concede many goals due to having possession, that's with Kepa and these same defenders that can be very shaky at times and in that system everything went through Jorginho - he's not going to have many duels won or let's say a good percentage of duels won, but he's going to keep possession both directly though passing around and indirectly by having a good amount of interceptions and with that he's a good system player.

I have argued in the past that Jorginho wasn't the main reason for our high amount of goals conceded and this season we have around 6 clean sheets with him, in fact if Rudiger doesn't score an own goal we would have had another clean sheet. Lampard tried to "protect the backline" with Kante and it didn't work out, Kante had errors leading to goal and we lacked structure in our play. But even Lampard just like Tuchel used Jorginho last season as a default for stability and structure and it worked.

For all of the limitations that Jorginho has he offers much more than what his weakness is. Sarri, Lampard, Tuchel all used Jorginho now and Pep wanted to buy him so even if he isn't a player that will win us titles he has been a good player for us and he is one of the main reasons why we could transform from being a counter-attacking team to a possession-based team.

 

I thought he had a very good game yesterday and if not for Rudigers antics we would've won it a lot more comfortably. He seems to be comfortable and confident in a Busquets style role, even turned a player around. I enjoyed his and Werners performance the most.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

The issue of Chilwell being reckless and making a penalty that wasn't given only due to a small offside isn't due to what a midfielder doesn't offer, same with Rudiger scoring an own goal - no team has such an epic midfielder that simply makes his defenders just walk around for 90 minutes without having any responsibility because he's taking every ball and no cross ever comes to his defender that he has to deal with, that is just fantasy. Our defense must deal with some crosses, with some situations that can come up during a game, there is no other way to go around that.

I can argue that if we are to win something again we must find a new T.Silva for next season first and foremost because regardless of who has played in the midfield it was our backline that couldn't do the job, that's even before Jorginho came to the club;

The issue of poor defending was even before Conte but for example Conte tried to hide the issue by playing very defensively, this lineup of Tuchel from the last game isn't that much different from Conte - Against Barcelona away we played a 3-4-2-1 with Rudiger-Christensen-Azpilicueta and we had Kante and Fabregas in the midfield and we lost 3:0 and got eliminated from the CL, that's just one example but worse teams beat us that season and we can argue that Kante and Fabregas of that time were better players that our current midfielders but it made no difference - we simply weren't going to win anything with a defense like that regardless of who was in the midfield.

Another example is that Sarri wanted to hide the issue by not allowing the opposition to have much of the ball - We got eliminated from the FA Cup while playing Azpilicueta, Rudiger, Alonso... Just another example.

My point is that all teams rely on their defenders to do their job, Liverpool couldn't win without a good defender and keeper and without their best defender it really doesn't matter what their midfielders offer defensively they simply are a worse team - in contrast Man City is missing a real striker and their best player KDB that last season had 20 assists and this season 10 assists is also missing but they have their defenders and they won the game comfortably even when Liverpool had their best attackers.

Sarri with his system didn't concede many goals due to having possession, that's with Kepa and these same defenders that can be very shaky at times and in that system everything went through Jorginho - he's not going to have many duels won or let's say a good percentage of duels won, but he's going to keep possession both directly though passing around and indirectly by having a good amount of interceptions and with that he's a good system player.

I have argued in the past that Jorginho wasn't the main reason for our high amount of goals conceded and this season we have around 6 clean sheets with him, in fact if Rudiger doesn't score an own goal we would have had another clean sheet. Lampard tried to "protect the backline" with Kante and it didn't work out, Kante had errors leading to goal and we lacked structure in our play. But even Lampard just like Tuchel used Jorginho last season as a default for stability and structure and it worked.

For all of the limitations that Jorginho has he offers much more than what his weakness is. Sarri, Lampard, Tuchel all used Jorginho now and Pep wanted to buy him so even if he isn't a player that will win us titles he has been a good player for us and he is one of the main reasons why we could transform from being a counter-attacking team to a possession-based team.

 

My issue doesn't stem from us conceding goals. So I don't know who you're replying to there

It's the fact that Jorginho can offer us more but doesn't because he always chooses the safer option. Doesn't matter when he has the space or he doesn't, he'll almost always choose to lay the ball off to Kovacic for Kovacic to do something with it or pass to the nearest player. 

Jorginho barely makes long diagonals to switch play to move players around,  barely makes throughballs, he doesn't drive at opposition and he doesn't have it in him to try to shoot from range.

Our brand of possession football is not exactly a title-winning one for us to wax lyrical about. If we have title winning aspirations, Jorginho has to play much much better than what he offers right now. 

 

1 hour ago, Deino said:

My issue doesn't stem from us conceding goals. So I don't know who you're replying to there

It's the fact that Jorginho can offer us more but doesn't because he always chooses the safer option. Doesn't matter when he has the space or he doesn't, he'll almost always choose to lay the ball off to Kovacic for Kovacic to do something with it or pass to the nearest player. 

Jorginho barely makes long diagonals to switch play to move players around,  barely makes throughballs, he doesn't drive at opposition and he doesn't have it in him to try to shoot from range.

Our brand of possession football is not exactly a title-winning one for us to wax lyrical about. If we have title winning aspirations, Jorginho has to play much much better than what he offers right now. 

 

I agree that he should do better. In the past he has offered more than just simple solutions to keep the ball but we have just had a new manager for a couple of weeks so I doubt that Tuchel won't instruct him to pass more forward since under Lampard last season he was doing that regularly. Maybe he's also getting used to having 1 player less in front of him, he was typically passing forward in a 4-3-3.

I think people really doesn't understand Jorginho game. Some people want him to offer more line breaking pass, some want him to make more direct pass to Werner. He simply can't do that consistently otherwise we will be talking about different player. He is not pirlo, Fabregas or xabi alonso type player. 

Jorginho is suited if you want to keep possession and play short pass. He doesn't strike the ball well hence his pass tend to be underhit so don't expect him to play many long balls ala pirlo or Fabregas, that is not his game. His positioning defensively is very2 good which allow him to intercept ball very well. He is the only natural sitting dm in the team but he does not have the atheliticism to cover ground which is why Sarri said he is not suited in double pivot. 

 

 

29 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

I think people really doesn't understand Jorginho game. Some people want him to offer more line breaking pass, some want him to make more direct pass to Werner. He simply can't do that consistently otherwise we will be talking about different player. He is not pirlo, Fabregas or xabi alonso type player. 

Jorginho is suited if you want to keep possession and play short pass. He doesn't strike the ball well hence his pass tend to be underhit so don't expect him to play many long balls ala pirlo or Fabregas, that is not his game. His positioning defensively is very2 good which allow him to intercept ball very well. He is the only natural sitting dm in the team but he does not have the atheliticism to cover ground which is why Sarri said he is not suited in double pivot. 

 

 

Jorginho's main strength is his ball distribution and wanting him to be more adventurous in playing the ball in behind is not too much to ask of him. No one is asking him to dribble past players like Kova or win the physical battle in midfield like Essien or have the engine of a Kante. His role in the team cannot simply be to play 5 yard passes to get us playing out from the back, he needs to be able to play the ball forward a lot more regularly especially if we are going to play Werner more Centrally.

Nobody expects him to turn into Fabregas over night and start notching double figure assists but at the moment he is hardly attempting anything when he clearly has that in his locker.

It's my observation too @Imran_CFC, I think that not all players should constantly look for a forward pass that would only lead to us losing the structure and losing possession but Jorginho played too safe and he kept complaining in a sense when he pointed to Mount a few times to come deeper but that's no excuse because he missed out on some good forward options.

We can only hope that Tuchel gives him the proper instructions but let's also keep in mind that with Jorginho in the starting lineup we have only 1 loss this season - vs Liverpool back in September, without him in the starting lineup we had 7 wins, 3 of those were vs Barnlsey, Morecambe & Luton so right now even if he fails to do what he used to do before he shouldn't be dropped since every game is basically super important for us.

Jorginho has had 5 starts and 1 sub apperance of 45mins against last years top 8. We have 1 win 3 draws and 2 losses so then we don't have a good record against last years top 8 with Jorginho in the team.

See we can all find stats for certain players to prove a point in a positive or negative manner. Alot harder for some like Kepa though

 

4 hours ago, Bob stark said:

I think people really doesn't understand Jorginho game. Some people want him to offer more line breaking pass, some want him to make more direct pass to Werner. He simply can't do that consistently otherwise we will be talking about different player. He is not pirlo, Fabregas or xabi alonso type player. 

Jorginho is suited if you want to keep possession and play short pass. He doesn't strike the ball well hence his pass tend to be underhit so don't expect him to play many long balls ala pirlo or Fabregas, that is not his game. His positioning defensively is very2 good which allow him to intercept ball very well. He is the only natural sitting dm in the team but he does not have the atheliticism to cover ground which is why Sarri said he is not suited in double pivot. 

 

 

Did you actually see how he was brushed away yesterday by Sheffield players? If he’s not suited to make Fabregas’ type of passes he certainly is not suited for the DM role because he hasn’t got the strength for it. And to make short passes, we could just put there anyone. I’m not saying that he will not be useful against some opposition, but not as a dm against teams that press and play the physical game. And he should start thinking about upping his game and getting some Fabregas skills, which would actually be very useful to us.

Only on this forum is Jorginho such a hot topic, ultimately he is a 6/10 player simple as. This generations Mikel.