10 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

I think he has looked 100percent better recently. The more fluid style with greater movement around him has helped him to play the more natural role he had under Sarri. Kovacic has also looked better with more a free role to run in midfield.

That said we are yet to be seriously challenged on the counter which as we all know is where Jorginho's weaknesses lie. Be interesting to see how the current approach goes, particularly against a ruthless countering team like Atletico in a few weeks.

And we haven't been hugely challenged on the counter because we've been good at snuffing them out. Annoy's me a bit when people try and neutralize the praise of the last few games with "they didn't bother to attack" does anyone really think Wolves known for deadly counterattacks or Burnley fresh from destroying Liverpool's home record and beating a very good Villa set up the way they did by design? Spurs are the only one's you could say did do it by intention but when they started getting adventurous we picked them off but unfortunately wasted numerous chances to kill the game.

Our on ball play in the final third needs a lot of improvement but on the ball in the other two thirds and off the ball we have been excellent so far under Tuchel.

5 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I agree that he should do better. In the past he has offered more than just simple solutions to keep the ball but we have just had a new manager for a couple of weeks so I doubt that Tuchel won't instruct him to pass more forward since under Lampard last season he was doing that regularly. Maybe he's also getting used to having 1 player less in front of him, he was typically passing forward in a 4-3-3.

This is a fair point as well but I really doubt Tuchel would tell him to don't try anything creative when Kovacic keeps trying every trick in his book to advance the ball forward. 

4 hours ago, Bob stark said:

I think people really doesn't understand Jorginho game. Some people want him to offer more line breaking pass, some want him to make more direct pass to Werner. He simply can't do that consistently otherwise we will be talking about different player. He is not pirlo, Fabregas or xabi alonso type player. 

Jorginho is suited if you want to keep possession and play short pass. He doesn't strike the ball well hence his pass tend to be underhit so don't expect him to play many long balls ala pirlo or Fabregas, that is not his game. His positioning defensively is very2 good which allow him to intercept ball very well. He is the only natural sitting dm in the team but he does not have the atheliticism to cover ground which is why Sarri said he is not suited in double pivot. 

 

 

Kovacic and Jorginho together has notched 2 assists all season (I'm not counting Jorginho's goals because those were penalties).

You think that's good enough to win titles? Most fans have already accepted that Kova won't provide goals and assists. If Jorginho doesn't provide it either then are we really expecting the goals to come from just the forwards and the defence? 

I'm not saying we should immediately sell both of them but they need to start to play better moving forward if we want to get anywhere near any title talk.

32 minutes ago, sonic90 said:

Only on this forum is Jorginho such a hot topic, ultimately he is a 6/10 player simple as. This generations Mikel.

6/10 means he has been a decent player for us at the very least. If only more people would come to that conclusion then Jorginho wouldn't be so much discussed about, I'm sure of it.

23 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

6/10 means he has been a decent player for us at the very least. If only more people would come to that conclusion then Jorginho wouldn't be so much discussed about, I'm sure of it.

He is a decent player and has qualities and can be a Chelsea player for years to come, but we have to question his viability as a starter for big/difficult games.

As a team that wants to compete for the big trophies, we can't have such a weak player in there unless he is a double edged sword with one side patched up like Cesc was.

1 hour ago, Argo said:

And we haven't been hugely challenged on the counter because we've been good at snuffing them out. Annoy's me a bit when people try and neutralize the praise of the last few games with "they didn't bother to attack" does anyone really think Wolves known for deadly counterattacks or Burnley fresh from destroying Liverpool's home record and beating a very good Villa set up the way they did by design? Spurs are the only one's you could say did do it by intention but when they started getting adventurous we picked them off but unfortunately wasted numerous chances to kill the game.

Our on ball play in the final third needs a lot of improvement but on the ball in the other two thirds and off the ball we have been excellent so far under Tuchel.

Burnley deffiantly set up defensively and even more so against the big teams away. I dont think anyone would expect any different.

18 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Burnley deffiantly set up defensively and even more so against the big teams away. I dont think anyone would expect any different.

Yes but they would still have has a plan to hurt us going the other way which we didnt allow them to even begin to implement.

They have had some good results at the big six grounds (ours included) in recent years.

33 minutes ago, Argo said:

Yes but they would still have has a plan to hurt us going the other way which we didnt allow them to even begin to implement.

They have had some good results at the big six grounds (ours included) in recent years.

I do agree with you as Wolves have some tricky quick players and we did limit them to next to nothing but just failed with creating much ourselves. I personally think Burnley sit back and play for set pieces and to stay in the game until the last 10mins but you are correct they failed to implement that gameplan. Spurs are just an embarrassment sitting back at home, Mourinho is lucky the fans are not there because the most I know think they play sh*t.

Edited February 8, 20215 yr by Ernie_blue

8 hours ago, Imran_CFC said:

Jorginho's main strength is his ball distribution and wanting him to be more adventurous in playing the ball in behind is not too much to ask of him. No one is asking him to dribble past players like Kova or win the physical battle in midfield like Essien or have the engine of a Kante. His role in the team cannot simply be to play 5 yard passes to get us playing out from the back, he needs to be able to play the ball forward a lot more regularly especially if we are going to play Werner more Centrally.

Nobody expects him to turn into Fabregas over night and start notching double figure assists but at the moment he is hardly attempting anything when he clearly has that in his locker.

Actually you are asking a lot, to make line breaking pass and long ball for Werner, it require player who can hit the ball well to generate the power to do so. Otherwise it will get intercepted a lot. This are simply not in Jorginho arsenal. Jorginho is very good at one touch passing to get the ball moving but you are asking stuff that he can't do. 

When first he came here, I thought the same as you. I have never watched him play before and everyone was raving him as pass master. But even under Sarri, he keep making this simple pass, first I thought maybe our front player doesn't move properly, but three years later it is still the same. The more you watch him the more you understand why he didn't do it. 

So when you said "His role in the team cannot simply be to play 5 yard passes" that is exactly his role. 

6 hours ago, Gol15 said:

It's my observation too @Imran_CFC, I think that not all players should constantly look for a forward pass that would only lead to us losing the structure and losing possession but Jorginho 

 

You are right, if everyone pass forward it will be too direct. Sideway passing is good, too much sideway passing is a snooze fest though. 

If you look at Jorginho purely from attacking point of view, he is fine, not great, he is fine. The problem is if you combine both defensively and offensively, he is quite poor.

Usually player leaning one way (Salah or Hazard n ndiddi or Azpi), decent at both, of course some monster like VVD is great st both. 

7 hours ago, Argo said:

And we haven't been hugely challenged on the counter because we've been good at snuffing them out. Annoy's me a bit when people try and neutralize the praise of the last few games with "they didn't bother to attack" does anyone really think Wolves known for deadly counterattacks or Burnley fresh from destroying Liverpool's home record and beating a very good Villa set up the way they did by design? Spurs are the only one's you could say did do it by intention but when they started getting adventurous we picked them off but unfortunately wasted numerous chances to kill the game.

 

Against wolves we play with 5 players behind the ball. Even Tuchel admit he setup his team not to lose. Not really the best idea in the long run against weaker opp. 

Burnley is not really a quick counter attacking team. They are long ball team. It is a test for our cb and gk. 

Spurs should have been a challenge but I have no clue what Mou was doing in the 1st half. Without kane, they pretty much can't break team down. 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Bob stark said:

You are right, if everyone pass forward it will be too direct.

Thats not strictly true, every single player on the pitch first choice should be to pass forward at every available opportunity. Its only if no forward pass is available they should then look to pass elsewhere. This modern style of possession just for the sake of it is tedious and frustrating to watch, far too many players take the easy or safe option and Jorginho is by far the worst for us with dozens of nothing passes that have zero impact on the game. Passes should be made for a reason, whether its direct to a player in space, into a channel, behind a defence, to move a defence around to open space, or a hundred other things. Not just to pad statistics and bore the opposition into making a mistake as that just doesn't work often enough.

12 hours ago, Argo said:

And we haven't been hugely challenged on the counter because we've been good at snuffing them out. Annoy's me a bit when people try and neutralize the praise of the last few games with "they didn't bother to attack" does anyone really think Wolves known for deadly counterattacks or Burnley fresh from destroying Liverpool's home record and beating a very good Villa set up the way they did by design? Spurs are the only one's you could say did do it by intention but when they started getting adventurous we picked them off but unfortunately wasted numerous chances to kill the game.

Our on ball play in the final third needs a lot of improvement but on the ball in the other two thirds and off the ball we have been excellent so far under Tuchel.

I thought I was praising Jorginho? Perhaps I wasn't praising hard enough. 

As for not being countered because of our approach, I think that we have improved our workrate up front for sure. I think there is a first mover advantage at the moment where teams haven't quite cracked us. Will be interesting to see against United and Atletico with more video available what happens. 

13 hours ago, sonic90 said:

Only on this forum is Jorginho such a hot topic, ultimately he is a 6/10 player simple as. This generations Mikel.

He dreams of aspiring to the levels of Mikel.

8 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Actually you are asking a lot, to make line breaking pass and long ball for Werner, it require player who can hit the ball well to generate the power to do so. Otherwise it will get intercepted a lot. This are simply not in Jorginho arsenal. Jorginho is very good at one touch passing to get the ball moving but you are asking stuff that he can't do. 

When first he came here, I thought the same as you. I have never watched him play before and everyone was raving him as pass master. But even under Sarri, he keep making this simple pass, first I thought maybe our front player doesn't move properly, but three years later it is still the same. The more you watch him the more you understand why he didn't do it. 

So when you said "His role in the team cannot simply be to play 5 yard passes" that is exactly his role. 

The thing is we are not Liverpool where Salah and Mane are banging in 50 goals a season therefore our midfield can have a limited role in the final third. With Werner struggling to find the net, Pulisic completely out of form, CHO just breaking into the team and our strikers struggling to make the team we need the midfielders to step up somewhat.

I don't know where you've got the notion that his role is purely to play 5 yard passes in which case Silva in a back 3 can just step up into midfield and do that, he definitely has the ball in behind in his Arsenal as he has shown on numerous occasions since he has been with us. He just has not been doing it as much lately & has been playing it safe. People have been hugely critical of our playing style since December, how everything we do goes through the wide areas which makes us 1 dimensional and easy to defend against. The alternative to that is having one of your midfielders try to hit the ball in behind from a central area.

Also comments such as people don't understand Jorginho's role in the team etc. does not come across well especially when you say his role is to play 5 yard passes. Does that not mean that teams who set up with a low block and do not press us at all make his role redundant and he should not attempt to penetrate the backline at all because its not his role in the team. When a player consistently plays sideways especially when their is a clear opening forward will get called out and asked to do more and saying that's not his role is not really a defense.

13 hours ago, Argo said:

Yes but they would still have has a plan to hurt us going the other way which we didnt allow them to even begin to implement.

They have had some good results at the big six grounds (ours included) in recent years.

I agree with your point except that last one. We are Burnley's bogey team. We have an unbeaten streak against them since 2018 ,and long may it continue, so they have not had a good result against us in recent years. Their only win against us was in 2017, if it wasn't for that, our unbeaten streak against Burnley stretches all the way to 2009.

Edited February 9, 20215 yr by Deino

14 hours ago, sonic90 said:

He is a decent player and has qualities and can be a Chelsea player for years to come, but we have to question his viability as a starter for big/difficult games.

As a team that wants to compete for the big trophies, we can't have such a weak player in there unless he is a double edged sword with one side patched up like Cesc was.

At least he's proven in his role, 17 games without defeat with him this season + first and second season he was doing his role pretty well all point to his usefulness. 

More than a few other players are still unproven yet and we have high hopes that some may at some point grow into their role and what not. We had problems in defense way before Jorginho came to be our player and it took us 1 game without T.Silva to score an own goal.

3 hours ago, Imran_CFC said:

The thing is we are not Liverpool where Salah and Mane are banging in 50 goals a season therefore our midfield can have a limited role in the final third. With Werner struggling to find the net, Pulisic completely out of form, CHO just breaking into the team and our strikers struggling to make the team we need the midfielders to step up somewhat.

I don't know where you've got the notion that his role is purely to play 5 yard passes in which case Silva in a back 3 can just step up into midfield and do that, he definitely has the ball in behind in his Arsenal as he has shown on numerous occasions since he has been with us. He just has not been doing it as much lately & has been playing it safe. People have been hugely critical of our playing style since December, how everything we do goes through the wide areas which makes us 1 dimensional and easy to defend against. The alternative to that is having one of your midfielders try to hit the ball in behind from a central area.

Also comments such as people don't understand Jorginho's role in the team etc. does not come across well especially when you say his role is to play 5 yard passes. Does that not mean that teams who set up with a low block and do not press us at all make his role redundant and he should not attempt to penetrate the backline at all because its not his role in the team. When a player consistently plays sideways especially when their is a clear opening forward will get called out and asked to do more and saying that's not his role is not really a defense.

Player role is more on where he need to be, some instruction and the rest depend on each player skillset. Let's take Werner you can't say to Werner, i want you to play as cf, challenge opp cb in the air, hold the ball up, he will think you are crazy because he can't do that. 

The same with Jorginho. Jorginho is not player who will make penetrative pass, he will do this from time to time but in general his game is all about keeping possession and moving it side to side because his passing does not have the necessary power to break line. If you ask him to make more risky pass, it will lead to many turnover in dangerous area. 

Is Jorginho role redundant against deep block? Actually nope, in perfect world where he actually can defend his role is perfectly fine. All he need to do is to feed kova and defend,Fabinho played this role for Liverpool. Plus we can push azpi forward more if Jorginho can really defend. 

Btw you can't push silva up, silva is afraid of pace, if you ask him play higher, it is suicide. 

Btw it is very rare for double pivot to contribute greatly in the final 3rd because they usually stay deeper, so they have to be great long range passser (cesc/pogba) or great at bringing the ball deep and in the final 3rd (maybe like yaya toure). 

 

12 hours ago, Bob stark said:

You are right, if everyone pass forward it will be too direct. Sideway passing is good, too much sideway passing is a snooze fest though. 

If you look at Jorginho purely from attacking point of view, he is fine, not great, he is fine. The problem is if you combine both defensively and offensively, he is quite poor.

Usually player leaning one way (Salah or Hazard n ndiddi or Azpi), decent at both, of course some monster like VVD is great st both. 

The total opposite from someone like Kante - Jorginho is good for a possession based team while Kante is good in a counter-attacking based team, defensively great but offensively just average. This is why Sarri chose him over any other player as the signing with his appointment as manager, for this type of football someone like Jorginho is simply essential.

The way Tuchel is using the double pivot is a link from defense to attack, when you hear him speak it is clear it is best to think of those positions as a part of the defense and the wing backs are a part of the attack. It is hard to argue with the how good we became defensively and holding possession almost over night. We will know more when we play teams that are more committed to attacking us.

27 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Player role is more on where he need to be, some instruction and the rest depend on each player skillset. Let's take Werner you can't say to Werner, i want you to play as cf, challenge opp cb in the air, hold the ball up, he will think you are crazy because he can't do that. 

The same with Jorginho. Jorginho is not player who will make penetrative pass, he will do this from time to time but in general his game is all about keeping possession and moving it side to side because his passing does not have the necessary power to break line. If you ask him to make more risky pass, it will lead to many turnover in dangerous area. 

Is Jorginho role redundant against deep block? Actually nope, in perfect world where he actually can defend his role is perfectly fine. All he need to do is to feed kova and defend,Fabinho played this role for Liverpool. Plus we can push azpi forward more if Jorginho can really defend. 

Btw you can't push silva up, silva is afraid of pace, if you ask him play higher, it is suicide. 

Btw it is very rare for double pivot to contribute greatly in the final 3rd because they usually stay deeper, so they have to be great long range passser (cesc/pogba) or great at bringing the ball deep and in the final 3rd (maybe like yaya toure). 

 

But Jorginho can't defend like Fabinho - Fabinho can play a limited role in the buildup because he is incredible from a defensive standpoint, the guy has been Liverpool's best CB this season which speaks volume of his defensive attributes. Jorginho does not have that defensive capability therefore having him purely in the team to play 5 yard passes does not make sense, the Silva point was tongue in cheek because you seem to be limiting Jorginho's role massively and something a CB can do if required if we play 3 CB's.

My question stands that against a low block do we really need 3 CB's and a double pivot which includes Jorginho who you state has a role of playing 5 yard passes. I don't think its too much to ask of Jorginho to play more high risk balls forward which he clearly has the ability to do and for some strange reason you are against.

Even @Gol15 the biggest supporter of Jorginho will accept that Jorginho needs to get the ball forward on more occasions then he does currently, against Sheffield he had numerous opportunities to get the ball in to Werner early and he ignored the runs.

22 minutes ago, Imran_CFC said:

But Jorginho can't defend like Fabinho - Fabinho can play a limited role in the buildup because he is incredible from a defensive standpoint, the guy has been Liverpool's best CB this season which speaks volume of his defensive attributes. Jorginho does not have that defensive capability therefore having him purely in the team to play 5 yard passes does not make sense, the Silva point was tongue in cheek because you seem to be limiting Jorginho's role massively and something a CB can do if required if we play 3 CB's.

My question stands that against a low block do we really need 3 CB's and a double pivot which includes Jorginho who you state has a role of playing 5 yard passes. I don't think its too much to ask of Jorginho to play more high risk balls forward which he clearly has the ability to do and for some strange reason you are against.

Even @Gol15 the biggest supporter of Jorginho will accept that Jorginho needs to get the ball forward on more occasions then he does currently, against Sheffield he had numerous opportunities to get the ball in to Werner early and he ignored the runs.

I do agree with that.

Just found an interesting stat - goal creating actions from open play (Per 90min):

1. Ziyech - 0.71

2. Hudson-Odoi - 0.67

3. Werner - 0.38

4. Pulisic - 0.37

5. Chilwell - 0.36

6. Havertz - 0.28

7. Jorginho - 0.25

8. Kovacic - 0.23

9. James - 0.20

10. Azpilicueta - 0.17

11. Mount - 0.10

12. Abraham - 0.09

We clearly need those that play to create more - Jorginho and Kovacic have a 0.25 and 0.23 per 90 minutes and since Ziyech hasn't been involved in a while this only confirms that CHO has been one of our best attackers, I had the opinion that he has taken his chances and minutes very well and this confirms it. 

9 hours ago, Deino said:

I agree with your point except that last one. We are Burnley's bogey team. We have an unbeaten streak against them since 2018 ,and long may it continue, so they have not had a good result against us in recent years. Their only win against us was in 2017, if it wasn't for that, our unbeaten streak against Burnley stretches all the way to 2009.

It's largely been Turf Moor where we take them to the cleaners, at home they've made it a lot harder for us.

Before this recent game our record against them at The Bridge (since they first came to the Prem) was Chelsea 3 wins, Burnley 1 win, 2 draws, that wasn't great considering the quality difference and shows the game could have easily become awkward if we weren't fully on it.

10 hours ago, Gol15 said:

The total opposite from someone like Kante - Jorginho is good for a possession based team while Kante is good in a counter-attacking based team, defensively great but offensively just average. This is why Sarri chose him over any other player as the signing with his appointment as manager, for this type of football someone like Jorginho is simply essential.

If you are talking about Sarriball then yeah, sarri want his dm to make 1 million pass per game, but that is not true for possession based vs counter attacking team.

Pep played fernandinho in his based midfield which it allow him to play two 10s in front of it. If kante is available for reasonable price, pep will sign him and stick him in fernadinho role.

That is the beauty of football. You can say I want to play possession football but the way you do it really depend on the player that you have. Of course this work to some degree, you probably can't play possession football with sheffield united squad for example. 

 

10 hours ago, Gol15 said:

 

Dp

Edited February 10, 20215 yr by Bob stark