52 minutes ago, Davey Baby said:

My main gripe this season is what Frank has done with Kovacic. He was a dream to watch, in a pivot, we were flying, we were witnessing a player really coming of age, he was easily our best performer in my opinion, it was his time and Frank's messed with that, and it's cost us. Frank's tinkered with something that was really working. If I were manager my priority would be getting this guy back to what he was doing. He'd just started scoring goals as well, after a long wait. Hopefully Frank learns from this experience. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Yeah, agree. And I actually thought, against the consensus, that he was our best midfielder vs arsenal and shouldn’t have been subbed. He didn’t have a blinder by any means but moved the ball well and showed glimpses of what he’s capable of (those quick feet in one instance). He seemed annoyed about being subbed too.

1 hour ago, Davey Baby said:

My main gripe this season is what Frank has done with Kovacic. He was a dream to watch, in a pivot, we were flying, we were witnessing a player really coming of age, he was easily our best performer in my opinion, it was his time and Frank's messed with that, and it's cost us. Frank's tinkered with something that was really working. If I were manager my priority would be getting this guy back to what he was doing. He'd just started scoring goals as well, after a long wait. Hopefully Frank learns from this experience. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I do think consistency has been a challenge throughout Kovacic's career though. No doubt tinkering with the squad has hurt him but he has tended to go on and off the boil. 

For me in the long run our best midfield three will be Kante anchoring Kovacic and RLC using their dribbling to get past defenders and create space. I think we've missed RLC this year far more than we have realised.

Lets face it he has been average his whole life if not for Jorginho doing most of the job I don't know where we would be now...sell when RLC come back-?

 

35 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Lets face it he has been average his whole life if not for Jorginho doing most of the job I don't know where we would be now...sell when RLC come back-?

 

You're just being a troll now trying to initiate arguments, you offer nothing of value to this forum. 

Edited January 25, 20206 yr by Slojo

56 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

I do think consistency has been a challenge throughout Kovacic's career though. No doubt tinkering with the squad has hurt him but he has tended to go on and off the boil. 

For me in the long run our best midfield three will be Kante anchoring Kovacic and RLC using their dribbling to get past defenders and create space. I think we've missed RLC this year far more than we have realised.

How has he gone off the boil? He hasn't even played... He played better than Kante did against Arsenal in the pivot. I'm not understanding this argument about Kovacic going out of form at all, he hasn't played, he's been sidelined. Besides the poor 18 minutes against Brighton, he's not really an impact sub, the game was already set, what has he done to warrant this criticism? 

35 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Lets face it he has been average his whole life if not for Jorginho doing most of the job I don't know where we would be now...sell when RLC come back-?

 

Not sure quite what you mean here. What part of the job do see Jorginho doing? Kovacic's work turning and dribbling into space in the first half of the year has been his strength. Don't think I've ever seen Jorginho do that.

37 minutes ago, Slojo said:

How has he gone off the boil? He hasn't even played... He played better than Kante did against Arsenal in the pivot. I'm not understanding this argument about Kovacic going out of form at all, he hasn't played, he's been sidelined. Besides the poor 18 minutes against Brighton, he's not really an impact sub, the game was already set, what has he done to warrant this criticism? 

I'm not criticising at all. I agree and think it's odd he isn't playing.

Just to say he has a habit across his career of being inconsistent. That may be the reason he isn't getting the starts. I still think that Jorginho is the one who will eventually make way. Sooner he moves on the sooner we move on from being late stage Arsenal to something that might win things.

1 hour ago, Spiller86 said:

Not sure quite what you mean here. What part of the job do see Jorginho doing? Kovacic's work turning and dribbling into space in the first half of the year has been his strength. Don't think I've ever seen Jorginho do that.

True, Jorginho doesn't do those things. He just does everything else I guess...

16 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

True, Jorginho doesn't do those things. He just does everything else I guess...

Hmm this seems to border on being disingenuous. I think Jorginho has his positives. He's a superb penalty taker and great at receiving the ball under pressure. Just for the record some things he doesnt do as a defensive midfielder that are kind of critical to winning Premier League games:

1. Win headers

2. Cover opposition counter attacks

3. Add any sort of physical presence whatsoever.

4. Create chances with the ball. 

Sarri said multiple times last season for Jorginho to work as a player you need to give him the ball always and make him the fulcrum. In Frank's game that's not how it works. For me Jorginho is built for a particular type of system game that has it's place in Italian and Spanish football but isn't the answer in England. The game has moved from Arsenal type tiki taka on to a more physical and direct German/English style that Liverpool currently embody. We won't compete by trying a pale comparison of a style that was in vogue nearly a decade ago.

For mine, he goes in the summer and we move towards a style that has more penetration. Kovacic in my view still has a big role to play in that.

1 hour ago, Spiller86 said:

Hmm this seems to border on being disingenuous. I think Jorginho has his positives. He's a superb penalty taker and great at receiving the ball under pressure. Just for the record some things he doesnt do as a defensive midfielder that are kind of critical to winning Premier League games:

1. Win headers

2. Cover opposition counter attacks

3. Add any sort of physical presence whatsoever.

4. Create chances with the ball. 

Sarri said multiple times last season for Jorginho to work as a player you need to give him the ball always and make him the fulcrum. In Frank's game that's not how it works. For me Jorginho is built for a particular type of system game that has it's place in Italian and Spanish football but isn't the answer in England. The game has moved from Arsenal type tiki taka on to a more physical and direct German/English style that Liverpool currently embody. We won't compete by trying a pale comparison of a style that was in vogue nearly a decade ago.

For mine, he goes in the summer and we move towards a style that has more penetration. Kovacic in my view still has a big role to play in that.

His role is called a deep-lying playmaker which isn't exactly the same as a defensiv midfielder, it would be almost a slight mistake to confuse those two.

The way he sets up others and gives them the positioning instructions is a major factor to why we finished so high last season and why we are in top 4 this season, he's still the best at passing, even with less possession and less touches he provides the same amount of key passes. I don't think you should see him as a "Gattuso" type, that would make us even less effective with our attacking style that we want to play anyway, he's more like a lesser version of Xavi, Fabregas for example...a rarity and harder to find.

Having in mind that his numbers show that he does more work in defense this season I think that your points from 1-4 actually talk a lot more about Kovacic for example. Though with the ball he does know how to penetrate.

When our whole squad is fully fit, they all benefit from having Jorginho than any other player, once RLC and Pulisic come back you will see the full power of the lineup Jorginho-RLC-Mount and Pulisic-Abraham-CHO the way our attack can look with these players can end up being world class, Jorginho can help these young players a lot to develop. Jorginho can also enable Barkley that with him looks more stable as a CM where when he was more forward his decision making was shaky.

With those players Jorginho doesn't need to dribble himself, nor to penetrate, the least you see him the more he influences the game, why would the squad need that when a good organised team is more important and when CHO/RLC/Pulisic/Mount do that quite well...this is why so many have said that the key is to take him out of the game before he can do what he does best, sadly this season it has been a different story. We concede more goals from counter attacks, the question is what is Jorginho doing about it? Well he gets yellow cards, not perfect but it's something. It's on Lampard to figure it out if he wants Jorginho or not, I can see him staying a few seasons more though.

@Gol15 in isolation all of those points are fine but your overall logic is this same argument we saw last year ie if you don't like Jorginho then you don't understand the regista/deep lying playmaker role. 

I understand the role he plays perfectly, my point is that it isn't what is required in the squad under Frank. The strengths you are talking about are there as a director and conductor which worked fine under Sarri's very orchestrated Italian way of playing. Truth is with the ball now we do this far less and there is far more freedom given to the players to make individual decisions. In this system Jorginho becomes more about simple recycling of the football rather than being the player who is directing the various set movements that Sarriball involved.

So the strengths you discuss (which I dont dispute) we don't really use. But the weaknesses in his game notably his lack of ball winning ability and his lack of pace to cover fast breaks hurt us very badly. We need someone who can clean up on transition either when we lose the ball when our players are very spread out or when the high press doesn't quite work. Luckily we have that player already in Kante. He can also play Jorginho's recycling role because he does that for France. That leaves Kovacic and other midfielders a bit more freedom to dribble and penetrate and also press high knowing Kante has their back behind them.

With RLC sidelined, Barkley is probably our best attacking midfielder. Kante is by common agreement our "world class" midfielder.  Bizarrely we have yet to see a starting XI this season with both of them in it ...

In a 4-3-3, the midfield selection I'd like to see tried is Kovacic, Kante and Barkley.  I think this offers the best balance in the midfield for the way we are trying to play ... Kovacic complements the other two better then Jorginho for me.

If Barkley is not available for that formation, then I'd pick Mount in his place.

Jorginho with Kante just doesn't seem to work. If Jorginho is considered a requirement for leadership, linkage between defence and midfield/forwards, and for penalties, then he plays instead of Kante.

9 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Lets face it he has been average his whole life if not for Jorginho doing most of the job I don't know where we would be now...sell when RLC come back-?

 

Give over with this sh*t.

If you’re gonna troll, at least make it funny 

1 hour ago, Sexyfootball said:

With RLC sidelined, Barkley is probably our best attacking midfielder. Kante is by common agreement our "world class" midfielder.  Bizarrely we have yet to see a starting XI this season with both of them in it ...

In a 4-3-3, the midfield selection I'd like to see tried is Kovacic, Kante and Barkley.  I think this offers the best balance in the midfield for the way we are trying to play ... Kovacic complements the other two better then Jorginho for me.

If Barkley is not available for that formation, then I'd pick Mount in his place.

Jorginho with Kante just doesn't seem to work. If Jorginho is considered a requirement for leadership, linkage between defence and midfield/forwards, and for penalties, then he plays instead of Kante.

I’d like to see that trio tested too

10 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Lets face it he has been average his whole life if not for Jorginho doing most of the job I don't know where we would be now...sell when RLC come back-?

 

Jesus wept, you're like a broken record. Move along.

4 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

We need someone who can clean up on transition either when we lose the ball when our players are very spread out or when the high press doesn't quite work. Luckily we have that player already in Kante. He can also play Jorginho's recycling role because he does that for France. That leaves Kovacic and other midfielders a bit more freedom to dribble and penetrate and also press high knowing Kante has their back behind them.

Maybe this should be tested for real. I heard before that Kante can do what Jorginho does yet it hasn't been actually done in practice, both Sarri and Lampard didn't try to play Kante that way.

Play 442 and see if Kante would do well. Even better if Kante would like to play deep in midfield play RLC along side him if you really want a physical presence in the midfield.

Just keep in mind that these things are unknown, Kante so far didn't seem to be interested he's still the box-to-box midfielder and Jorginho does his role well, when someone tries to mark Jorginho out of the game someone else has more freedom out there but then again it was under Sarri where the whole squad was more dependent on Jorginho. 

But even then, I don't see why Jorginho wouldn't play his same role while Kante would be the ball winning midfielder/destroyer for the team. If Kante is to be both the ball winning DM and keeping possession like Jorginho, then it leaves RLC/Kovacic/Mount in a very much free role, you can argue that most players would be happy to play along side Kante like that where Kante would be doing most of the job no?

Even Pirlo had Gattuso, now we are to expect that Kante would suddenly become Pirlo+Gattuso while keeping his own qualities?

It's much easier to wonder why isn't Kovacic as good as Hamsik was at Napoli, ironically they both rock the number 17 but Jorginho did way more with Hamsik in comparison...

Lampard is learning the hard way never mess with a winning formula, the moment he broke up Kova- Jorginho we went down hill and the harsh reality is even if we but them back together we may not improve again

1 hour ago, Brutos said:

Lampard is learning the hard way never mess with a winning formula, the moment he broke up Kova- Jorginho we went down hill and the harsh reality is even if we but them back together we may not improve again

It's more down to Jorgis inability to play in a pivot with Kante and vice versa. I thought we looked good with a Kova-Kanté midfield as well. Kovacic seems to be the only one flexible enough to play with either of the other two. So if Frank insists on playing Mount I'd bench Jorginho, because he doesn't offer anything (besides penalties) the other two don't and he has very obvious drawbacks. We can bring him on if Kante or Kova need a break or if Barkley wants to go for another penalty.

12 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

It's more down to Jorgis inability to play in a pivot with Kante and vice versa. I thought we looked good with a Kova-Kanté midfield as well. Kovacic seems to be the only one flexible enough to play with either of the other two. So if Frank insists on playing Mount I'd bench Jorginho, because he doesn't offer anything (besides penalties) the other two don't and he has very obvious drawbacks. We can bring him on if Kante or Kova need a break or if Barkley wants to go for another penalty.

I think we benched Jorginho for a few games and played Kante with Kovacic, yet we still looked rubbish, in fact we looked worse. Its not Jorginhos fault but rather the entire team is not playing well in my opinion. Something is missing, not sure what. 

20 hours ago, Gentian said:

I think we benched Jorginho for a few games and played Kante with Kovacic, yet we still looked rubbish, in fact we looked worse. Its not Jorginhos fault but rather the entire team is not playing well in my opinion. Something is missing, not sure what. 

The games I remember Kante and Kovacic starting are the 0:2 victory over Spuds, the victory over Aston Villa and the victory over Arsenal. Tbf the Arsenal game started very poorly and the team improved massively when Lampard substituted Jorgi for Emerson, but you couldn't do much worse than Emerson in that game. Jorgi is good at distributing the ball inside our own half but other than that he doesn't do anything that Kovacic can't do better with Kante or Kante can't do better with Kovacic. Kovacic+Jorgi offers more control but makes us vulnerable because he can't cover Mateo the way N'Golo can and with Jorgi+Kante we might as well be playing not to lose as there will be much recycling of the ball from one side to the other back to the CBs back to Jorgi back to the other side... with the occasional cross we don't score from.

Jorgis game is very safe and very predictable. He won't ever surprise you, he can't take on players by himself at all and he doesn't do through passes, only the occasional pass forward over the lines. The only thing Jorgi does better without a doubt are penalties, but that doesn't make you a starter in my book. That being said I still prefer Jorgi over Mount against the big sides.

33 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

The games I remember Kante and Kovacic starting are the 0:2 victory over Spuds, the victory over Aston Villa and the victory over Arsenal. Tbf the Arsenal game started very poorly and the team improved massively when Lampard substituted Jorgi for Emerson, but you couldn't do much worse than Emerson in that game. Jorgi is good at distributing the ball inside our own half but other than that he doesn't do anything that Kovacic can't do better with Kante or Kante can't do better with Kovacic. Kovacic+Jorgi offers more control but makes us vulnerable because he can't cover Mateo the way N'Golo can and with Jorgi+Kante we might as well be playing not to lose as there will be much recycling of the ball from one side to the other back to the CBs back to Jorgi back to the other side... with the occasional cross we don't score from.

Jorgis game is very safe and very predictable. He won't ever surprise you, he can't take on players by himself at all and he doesn't do through passes, only the occasional pass forward over the lines. The only thing Jorgi does better without a doubt are penalties, but that doesn't make you a starter in my book. That being said I still prefer Jorgi over Mount against the big sides.

Good points. We also started with Kante and Kovacic pivot at home to Palace and it was a good performance. On Jorginho, one quality I’d add is his leadership/ability to organise the team. He has a good ‘football brain’ and if the players followed his instructions during games (they don’t always) we would play better. The time seems ripe to try the kova/jorginho pivot again, especially with our defence looking more solid.

On Kovacic - the usual naysayers were too quick to pounce on his second half performance. It was average, not bad, while his first half performance was pure class. Overall it sums to an A minus, I’d say. He was at fault, and yes spineless, for their goal. But we wouldn’t have even noticed had it not gone in. Meanwhile, there are things he can do as well as anyone - defence-splitting throughballs, passing in general, sublime touch - and his peak years are ahead of him. By all means criticise his weaknesses, but why not also recognise these strengths?

Edited January 26, 20206 yr by Dean

30 minutes ago, Dean said:

Good points. We also started with Kante and Kovacic pivot at home to Palace and it was a good performance. On Jorginho, one quality I’d add is his leadership/ability to organise the team. He has a good ‘football brain’ and if the players followed his instructions during games (they don’t always) we would play better. The time seems ripe to try the kova/jorginho pivot again, especially with our defence looking more solid.

On Kovacic - the usual naysayers were too quick to pounce on his second half performance. It was average, not bad, while his first half performance was pure class. Overall it sums to an A minus, I’d say. He was at fault, and yes spineless, for their goal. But we wouldn’t have even noticed had it not gone in. Meanwhile, there are things he can do as well as anyone - defence-splitting throughballs, passing in general, sublime touch - and his peak years are ahead of him. By all means criticise his weaknesses, but why not also recognise these strengths?

I thought about that, but decided to leave it out. Honestly, we are lacking leadership no matter what. So if Jorgi is a leader he's not a very good one, at least I don't feel like the team is following him (or Azpi for that matter).

The ball to Dave in the first half, that led to our goal, was sublime. Very few players in the world can hit a pass that well. It was hit flat, with pace, over a large amount of ground. Dave didn't have to break stride nor did he have to pluck it out of the air. It was the speed of the delivery that makes it such a special pass.

The ball to Dave in the first half, that led to our goal, was sublime. Very few players in the world can hit a pass that well. It was hit flat, with pace, over a large amount of ground. Dave didn't have to break stride nor did he have to pluck it out of the air. It was the speed of the delivery that makes it such a special pass.

Just watched that and was thinking the same thing. That pass is a thing of beauty. Azpi's pass from it was so frustrating. Would have been an excellent goal that.