On 07/12/2019 at 16:45, Gol15 said:

even Grealish made our midfield look like sh*t in the first half.

I'm not going to get into the middle of your little spat with some grown-ups, but I'm not totally sure that you actually understand football.

2 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

I'm not going to get into the middle of your little spat with some grown-ups, but I'm not totally sure that you actually understand football.

In the following segements you will find it hard to notice Kovacic, as he was basically a ghost so pay close attention to the 0 impact in defending:

First Everton goal, Kovacic lost the whole midfield single handedly while Kante was pressing, he tried to track down and couldn't do it.

First (and only) Aston Villa goal, Grealish went from the left side of the pitch to the right side, and constructed the play that ended in a cross and a goal. Kovacic didn't offer any resistance as he was just walking around.

Second Manchester City goal, Mahrez gets the ball, and it looks as if it was a counter attack since Kovacic offers no help to the backline, he simply walks around like a ghost.

Now I could show the first Manchester City goal as well, after Jorginho lost the ball, he and Kante track back to stop the counter attack, Kovacic doesn't track back and because of this De Bruyne is left alone, Jorginho tries to slide in and stop the shot, De Bruyne fakes it and then shoots and scores.

 

Edited December 11, 20196 yr by Gol15

16 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

In the following segements you will find it hard to notice Kovacic, as he was basically a ghost so pay close attention to the 0 impact in defending:

First Everton goal, Kovacic lost the whole midfield single handedly while Kante was pressing, he tried to track down and couldn't do it.

First (and only) Aston Villa goal, Grealish went from the left side of the pitch to the right side, and constructed the play that ended in a cross and a goal. Kovacic didn't offer any resistance as he was just walking around.

Second Manchester City goal, Mahrez gets the ball, and it looks as if it was a counter attack since Kovacic offers no help to the backline, he simply walks around like a ghost.

Now I could show the first Manchester City goal as well, after Jorginho lost the ball, he and Kante track back to stop the counter attack, Kovacic doesn't track back and because of this De Bruyne is left alone, Jorginho tries to slide in and stop the shot, De Bruyne fakes it and then shoots and scores.

 

Good to see you got the memo

Unsalvageable 

38 minutes ago, Dean said:

Good to see you got the memo

I replied to Yorkie not you. I understood you already.

49 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

I spat my drink out 😂😂

3 hours ago, Gol15 said:

In the following segements you will find it hard to notice Kovacic, as he was basically a ghost so pay close attention to the 0 impact in defending:

First Everton goal, Kovacic lost the whole midfield single handedly while Kante was pressing, he tried to track down and couldn't do it.

First (and only) Aston Villa goal, Grealish went from the left side of the pitch to the right side, and constructed the play that ended in a cross and a goal. Kovacic didn't offer any resistance as he was just walking around.

Second Manchester City goal, Mahrez gets the ball, and it looks as if it was a counter attack since Kovacic offers no help to the backline, he simply walks around like a ghost.

Now I could show the first Manchester City goal as well, after Jorginho lost the ball, he and Kante track back to stop the counter attack, Kovacic doesn't track back and because of this De Bruyne is left alone, Jorginho tries to slide in and stop the shot, De Bruyne fakes it and then shoots and scores.

 

Talk about cherry picking, neither of those 3 gifs were solely his fault. You could provide a montage of Jorginho losing his man, it happens. The 2nd gif was more to do with Pulisic ball watching, the 3rd gif was also very bad defending on Emersons part for not showing Mahrez on his right. The first gif was sloppy man marking yes, but he was still our best player in that game... 

This Kovacic agenda isn't healthy. 

5 hours ago, Gol15 said:

In the following segements you will find it hard to notice Kovacic, as he was basically a ghost so pay close attention to the 0 impact in defending:

First Everton goal, Kovacic lost the whole midfield single handedly while Kante was pressing, he tried to track down and couldn't do it.

First (and only) Aston Villa goal, Grealish went from the left side of the pitch to the right side, and constructed the play that ended in a cross and a goal. Kovacic didn't offer any resistance as he was just walking around.

Second Manchester City goal, Mahrez gets the ball, and it looks as if it was a counter attack since Kovacic offers no help to the backline, he simply walks around like a ghost.

Now I could show the first Manchester City goal as well, after Jorginho lost the ball, he and Kante track back to stop the counter attack, Kovacic doesn't track back and because of this De Bruyne is left alone, Jorginho tries to slide in and stop the shot, De Bruyne fakes it and then shoots and scores.

 

First clip he follows his man then has to get out wide to cover Pulisic's man, is he meant to cover everyone?

Second one you even say their player goes from the left to the right hand side of the pitch. If Kovacic follows he ruins our entire shape, do you understand that?

Third one Kovacic should have done more to show him out wide but that's more on Emerson being spun so easily.

You're a really weird bloke with this agenda against Kovacic, it isn't healthy. Perhaps sign out for a bit and take a breather from the forum, might help you mentally.

Jeezus i've seen some pathetic rants in my years on here, but crucifying probably our best MF, you aint got an agenda, you're a naughty Troll, get back under the bridge, with the Gooners and Spammers reside, #deludedfool

1 hour ago, Ballack & Blu said:

Jeezus i've seen some pathetic rants in my years on here, but crucifying probably our best MF, you aint got an agenda, you're a naughty Troll, get back under the bridge, with the Gooners and Spammers reside, #deludedfool

I'm only defending myself or my view, nothing more.

Do you still think we lost games because Kovacic played too well? 

What is your problem with him, is it nationality? Where are you from. 

7 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I'm only defending myself or my view, nothing more.

A well reasoned argument, but unfair to single out Kova imho - my view in the scenarios you presented is to take into consideration the tactics before the individual - every tactical system has it's strengths and weaknesses (watch other teams that play 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 and you''re likely to see similar patterns of play emerging).

@Gol15

It's no secret Frank likes the 4 2 3 1. But even Sarri thinks Jorginho is not suitable in that system, which is how he explained the substitution of his absolute key player last season. Frank seems to agree.

https://thefootballfaithful.com/sarri-reveals-jorginho-substitution-reason-chelsea-wolves/

There is either the option to accomodate Jorginho with a 4 3 3 or to accomodate Mount with a 4 2 3 1. Kovacic will play regardless, he is the player -except Kepa obviously- with the most minutes this season I believe. So you've basically been barking up the wrong tree the whole time.

*edit* PS: I really hope it's coincidence that you have Ivanovic, a serbian player, in your profile banner.

Edited December 12, 20196 yr by Vagabond

1 hour ago, Vagabond said:

@Gol15

It's no secret Frank likes the 4 2 3 1. But even Sarri thinks Jorginho is not suitable in that system, which is how he explained the substitution of his absolute key player last season. Frank seems to agree.

https://thefootballfaithful.com/sarri-reveals-jorginho-substitution-reason-chelsea-wolves/

There is either the option to accomodate Jorginho with a 4 3 3 or to accomodate Mount with a 4 2 3 1. Kovacic will play regardless, he is the player -except Kepa obviously- with the most minutes this season I believe. So you've basically been barking up the wrong tree the whole time.

*edit* PS: I really hope it's coincidence that you have Ivanovic, a serbian player, in your profile banner.

If what you're saying is true, a lot of things may be an implicature in play. For someone that doesn't want Jorginho to lose his place in the team, it's a bit worrying what you're saying as Jorginho may not have a future in this club. Such a player will either be one of the leaders of the team, or he will change the team where he will have a main role, I don't see him being a bench player thus I really want his role not to change.

I don't want to go into the discussion of which formation suits this particular team more, if anything I personally like more the 4-2-3-1 but at the same time I was really hoping that Jorginho could be in it, I wanted my cake and to eat it too, basically.
This what you're pointing out, that I have been barking at the wrong tree for all this time is maybe true, but I just find it hard to accept that a player like Jorginho might not have a future in this club. At his first Premier league season he was the top passer in the league, a natural born leader on the pitch, nothing but a decent guy overall and his penalty technique is always fun to see. 

I defended Jorginho last season when some were pointing fingers at him, this season people are discussing about if the club should consider selling Kante, one person mentioned selling Jorginho, I jumped in and argued that he as a key player is essential. But the harsh truth is, he isn't needed as a key player, anymore. Because Frankie is making a better system for the long term. I didn't want to see the obvious, the fact that the only player that the club at this point can profit good money from, without losing much of it's new founded tactic is Jorginho, I simply didn't want that to happen, but it's probably going to happen in the summer, you could argue it's maybe the best thing for the squad, selling Jorginho and getting a more physical player for other/more tactical variations.

It is sad for me personally, a lot. Because many here talk only bad about Jorginho that has done nothing buy being a decent professional even when a lot of people were booing at him, bad talks about him continue and when he's gone people will say they were right and that he was no good, even if he was a model professional while being here.

You pointing out what Sarri said is is the sole reason why I have no arguments left to defend Jorginho in any way, I can't really be happy about it but I must say well done, the right move is to accomodate Mount since he is the future of the club and Frank's protegé. I guess I'm left with nothing else to say here...I don't understand what my profile banner has to do with all of this but cheers you won this debate.

Edited December 12, 20196 yr by Gol15

24 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

If what you're saying is true, a lot of things may be an implicature in play. For someone that doesn't want Jorginho to lose his place in the team, it's a bit worrying what you're saying as Jorginho may not have a future in this club. Such a player will either be one of the leaders of the team, or he will change the team where he will have a main role, I don't see him being a bench player thus I really want his role not to change.

I don't want to go into the discussion of which formation suits this particular team more, if anything I personally like more the 4-2-3-1 but at the same time I was really hoping that Jorginho could be in it, I wanted my cake and to eat it too, basically.
This what you're pointing out, that I have been barking at the wrong tree for all this time is maybe true, but I just find it hard to accept that a player like Jorginho might not have a future in this club. At his first Premier league season he was the top passer in the league, a natural born leader on the pitch, nothing but a decent guy overall and his penalty technique is always fun to see. 

I defended Jorginho last season when some were pointing fingers at him, this season people are discussing about if the club should consider selling Kante, one person mentioned selling Jorginho, I jumped in and argued that he as a key player is essential. But the harsh truth is, he isn't needed as a key player, anymore. Because Frankie is making a better system for the long term. I didn't want to see the obvious, the fact that the only player that the club at this point can profit good money from, without losing much of it's new founded tactic is Jorginho, I simply didn't want that to happen, but it's probably going to happen in the summer, you could argue it's maybe the best thing for the squad, selling Jorginho and getting a more physical player for other/more tactical variations.

It is sad for me personally, a lot. Because many here talk only bad about Jorginho that has done nothing buy being a decent professional even when a lot of people were booing at him, bad talks about him continue and when he's gone people will say they were right and that he was no good, even if he was a model professional while being here.

You pointing out what Sarri said is is the sole reason why I have no arguments left to defend Jorginho in any way, I can't really be happy about it but I must say well done, the right move is to accomodate Mount since he is the future of the club and Frank's protegé. I guess I'm left with nothing else to say here...I don't understand what my profile banner has to do with all of this but cheers you won this debate.

I actually prefer the 4 3 3 over a 4 2 3 1. A few weeks ago Frank has already indicated in an interview that Mason is getting a lot more minutes than he could've expected this season so I think he's preparing Mount for the bench now that Kante is back. Against the better sides we always play a 4 3 3, so Jorgi is definitely still needed and will be needed next season as well, since it is far too soon for Mason to shoulder that burden alone... don't forget we still don't know if RLC can stay injury free so the only midfielder we can afford to sell is Barkley.

Only problem is this has nothing to do with Kova.

Right, gol15 are you Serbian and is your hatred of Kovacic personal?

3 hours ago, Vagabond said:

@Gol15

*edit* PS: I really hope it's coincidence that you have Ivanovic, a serbian player, in your profile banner.

Coincidence, not sticking up for him, but he has a Scandanavian name and his email is from Scandanavia, without being country specific.

Noticed with Kovacic's goals they have both been slide-rule grass-cutter shots, as soon as he tries to welly it, he skies it.

 

13 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I'm only defending myself or my view, nothing more.

Maybe you just like to break different from the rest, the only pundit i've seen criticise him is Souness, and he's a deluded old fool, that wouldn't get near kovacic, not seen too many on here lambast him.

Edited December 12, 20196 yr by Ballack & Blu
mispelling

2 hours ago, Vagabond said:

I actually prefer the 4 3 3 over a 4 2 3 1. A few weeks ago Frank has already indicated in an interview that Mason is getting a lot more minutes than he could've expected this season so I think he's preparing Mount for the bench now that Kante is back. Against the better sides we always play a 4 3 3, so Jorgi is definitely still needed and will be needed next season as well, since it is far too soon for Mason to shoulder that burden alone... don't forget we still don't know if RLC can stay injury free so the only midfielder we can afford to sell is Barkley.

Only problem is this has nothing to do with Kova.

I've seen RLC last season, I'm convinced that once he comes back he will have a huge impact on the squad and he will stay in the first team. Adding to the fact that Mount as a youngster already has 5 goals in the league, it's only logical to already conclude that he will play even more next season. In the current state of our squad it's only the experience that is lacking which is why it's still too risky to change the 4-3-3 in big games, even so the season is already a successful one as we qualified for the knockout stage in Europe, Jorginho at the current squad still needs to have a key role but as things are going, next season he won't be needed.

All of this has to do with Kovacic indirectly, if our tactic is slowly changing and he is getting the main role in the midfield, then Jorginho will be out of his role even before this season ends, I don't see it happening and it shouldn't happen, this is why I went against all those who claim that Kovacic can do it all since I see Jorginho as a better player but you basically proved that he can't adapt to our new tactic which in turn favours Kovacic...Kante can walk into any squad in the world, the only player that could have been dropped so that Jorginho doesn't end up losing his spot in the squad was Kovacic but he isn't going to be dropped since this system makes his game better. I tried to argue that he isn't all that perfect as people claim but it doesn't actually matter since well, you proved that it's in fact Jorginho that no matter what others do, simply doesn't fit in our system, I can't go against what Sarri said.

*I think that it goes without saying, Jorginho is a type of a player that a manager builds his team around, this is why he came for such a fee in the first place, and was the number one name of Sarri. Otherwise he won't have any impact and his overall game will be worse, then it's basically having to pay wages for a player that isn't justifying his price, his worth.

Edited December 12, 20196 yr by Gol15

5 hours ago, Strider6003 said:

Noticed with Kovacic's goals they have both been slide-rule grass-cutter shots, as soon as he tries to welly it, he skies it.

 

True. But I think we may see other goal types in due course.

Just now, Dean said:

True. But I think we may see other goal types in due course.

I do too, thinking Kante must be due one soon. I loved that winner he got against Utd a while back.

4 hours ago, Ballack & Blu said:

Maybe you just like to break different from the rest, the only pundit i've seen criticise him is Souness, and he's a deluded old fool, that wouldn't get near kovacic, not seen too many on here lambast him.

He (Souness) does seem pretty rooted in a different era and desperate to portray himself as some sort of tough guy who’d have his way with Kova back in the day. As you say, he wouldn’t get near him. 

4 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I've seen RLC last season, I'm convinced that once he comes back he will have a huge impact on the squad and he will stay in the first team. Adding to the fact that Mount as a youngster already has 5 goals in the league, it's only logical to already conclude that he will play even more next season. In the current state of our squad it's only the experience that is lacking which is why it's still too risky to change the 4-3-3 in big games, even so the season is already a successful one as we qualified for the knockout stage in Europe, Jorginho at the current squad still needs to have a key role but as things are going, next season he won't be needed.

All of this has to do with Kovacic indirectly, if our tactic is slowly changing and he is getting the main role in the midfield, then Jorginho will be out of his role even before this season ends, I don't see it happening and it shouldn't happen, this is why I went against all those who claim that Kovacic can do it all since I see Jorginho as a better player but you basically proved that he can't adapt to our new tactic which in turn favours Kovacic...Kante can walk into any squad in the world, the only player that could have been dropped so that Jorginho doesn't end up losing his spot in the squad was Kovacic but he isn't going to be dropped since this system makes his game better. I tried to argue that he isn't all that perfect as people claim but it doesn't actually matter since well, you proved that it's in fact Jorginho that no matter what others do, simply doesn't fit in our system, I can't go against what Sarri said.

*I think that it goes without saying, Jorginho is a type of a player that a manager builds his team around, this is why he came for such a fee in the first place, and was the number one name of Sarri. Otherwise he won't have any impact and his overall game will be worse, then it's basically having to pay wages for a player that isn't justifying his price, his worth.

I think this is all still up in the air - we haven’t necessarily found our best formation/lineup. I’m not sure Lampard knows for sure what it is either. 4-3-3 looked better last game (admittedly against second-string Lille) and our problems didn’t stem from that. Other times 4-2-3-1 has looked better, but it’s still just too early. I don’t think Kova and Jorginho are mutually exclusive. You may be overthinking this.

Edited December 12, 20196 yr by Dean