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8 minutes ago, big blue said:

Henderson is way better than Mount currently, passing, tackling, tactically, leadership, vision, mentality. He is captain for one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the world for a reason. 

I dont think mount starts 30 games for Liverpool or City at the moment, so the answer to the previous question, would be no, he isnt good enough to start regularly for a title winning side.

But in a couple of years he may be, but he has some areas of his game he really needs to improve, which is normal for a 21 year old. There is also no harm un pointing out said flaws, as long as criticism doesnt turn into abuse, which unfortunately it does regularly on twitter. 

B-b-but Mbappe! 😅

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12 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

We won two league titles with Willian on the wing and one with Alonso and Moses out wide.

Of course Mason is good enough. 

That was in the past. Do you think we could win with our current competition?

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12 minutes ago, big blue said:

Henderson is way better than Mount currently, passing, tackling, tactically, leadership, vision, mentality. He is captain for one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the world for a reason. 

I dont think mount starts 30 games for Liverpool or City at the moment, so the answer to the previous question, would be no, he isnt good enough to start regularly for a title winning side.

But in a couple of years he may be, but he has some areas of his game he really needs to improve, which is normal for a 21 year old. There is also no harm un pointing out said flaws, as long as criticism doesnt turn into abuse, which unfortunately it does regularly on twitter. 

Not  really, they are different type of players Henderson being more defensive and Mount being more attacking leaned. However, the stats from last season are not that different.

 

IMG_0942.PNG

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4 minutes ago, RMH said:

Not  really, they are different type of players Henderson being more defensive and Mount being more attacking leaned. However, the stats from last season are not that different.

 

IMG_0942.PNG

Agreed they are different types of players, i didnt make the initial comparison. They didnt play the same position last season much either, so comparing statistics like goals and assists doesnt really tell the story. 

I know there is a big reliance on statistics these days, but i think its pretty clear if you watched a decent amount of both players, that Henderson is clear in the attributes i stated, and i would say Mount has better shooting technique, and better movement in the final 3rd. Physically pretty similar, but Henderson is stronger physically. 

He might not have outperformed KDB to have deserved POTY, but he has been a vital player for a title winning side, and a chamlions league winning side in 2 seasons, Liverpool are worse side when he doesnt play. 

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19 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

That was in the past. Do you think we could win with our current competition?

That implies that we won because the competition wasn't strong enough doesn't it? That's a false claim, nobody was ready for Conte's tactics it has nothing to do with the competition but with our gameplan/formation/tactics.

After Conte's 3-4-3 was destroying the league several teams adopted it directly from us, Conte influenced the league very strongly so if nobody knew about that kind of a playstyle right now and we had Conte we might as well could have the same outcome by winning the league.

Mason Mount is essential to Lampard's tactic and by his own design he is pushing Mount to keep pressing and working hard all around the pitch.

Mount is for Lampard what Jorginho was for Sarri more or less. When our wingers, Pulisic and Ziyech are back and when Mount starts playing more central with Havertz we shall see just how powerful this tactic will be.

Edited by Gol15
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24 minutes ago, big blue said:

He might not have outperformed KDB to have deserved POTY, but he has been a vital player for a title winning side, and a chamlions league winning side in 2 seasons, Liverpool are worse side when he doesnt play. 

It's actually not even close, he fits in Klopp's tactic with Keita, Fabinho and those type of players where all of them are just doing the defensive work and winning the ball back while the front 3 is creating goals... KDB had a historical season and he alone could solve games for Man City, Henderson is the right piece for the system of Klopp but he isn't that big of a difference maker on his own.

Mount is only 21 years old, the fact that there could even be a comparison to a 30 yeard old Henderson that just walked out of his prime years and that needed to wait so long in order to win a big title speaks more about Mount than what it does about Henderson.

Edited by Gol15
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16 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

It's actually not even close, he fits in Klopp's tactic with Keita, Fabinho and those type of players where all of them are just doing the defensive work and winning the ball back while the front 3 is creating goals... KDB had a historical season and he alone could solve games for Man City, Henderson is the right piece for the system of Klopp but he isn't that big of a difference maker on his own.

Mount is only 21 years old, the fact that there could even be a comparison to a 30 yeard old Henderson that just walked out of his prime years and that needed to wait so long in order to win a big title speaks more about Mount than what it does about Henderson.

A single posters choice of comparison doesnt hold nearly enough weight for that statement to mean anything! 

https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/comparing-liverpools-record-with-and-without-jordan-henderson-since-18-19/

Liverpool are a much better side with Henderson in it. I get he isnt the most glamorous player, but he is quality. He also had a great season under Rodgers when Gerrard slipped, so i whilst he is perfect in Klopps system, he has thrived under different tactics aswell. 

Hopefully Mount can go on and have a similar career here. 

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55 minutes ago, big blue said:

Agreed they are different types of players, i didnt make the initial comparison. They didnt play the same position last season much either, so comparing statistics like goals and assists doesnt really tell the story. 

I know there is a big reliance on statistics these days, but i think its pretty clear if you watched a decent amount of both players, that Henderson is clear in the attributes i stated, and i would say Mount has better shooting technique, and better movement in the final 3rd. Physically pretty similar, but Henderson is stronger physically. 

He might not have outperformed KDB to have deserved POTY, but he has been a vital player for a title winning side, and a chamlions league winning side in 2 seasons, Liverpool are worse side when he doesnt play. 

I only put the statistics to show that they are really not that far off each other in terms of ability, despite the obvious differences in role and experience. But I agree, Henderson is a more experienced player as expected being 30 and an organising leader for their team. Nevertheless, although he has been key to Klopp's tactics for the last two seasons or so, before then I thought that he was a very average player. In comparison, we have in Mount a player of 21 with a more offensive quality than henderson and who defensively is key to Lampard's style of play and is not that far off from Henderson. If he keeps developing and given the experience he is getting, he can become as vocal and tactical aware as Henderson, and I think that he can be a leader as Lampard or Terry were. But that is just my opinion.

Edited by RMH
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9 minutes ago, big blue said:

A single posters choice of comparison doesnt hold nearly enough weight for that statement to mean anything! 

https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/comparing-liverpools-record-with-and-without-jordan-henderson-since-18-19/

Liverpool are a much better side with Henderson in it. I get he isnt the most glamorous player, but he is quality. He also had a great season under Rodgers when Gerrard slipped, so i whilst he is perfect in Klopps system, he has thrived under different tactics aswell. 

Hopefully Mount can go on and have a similar career here. 

This is where I disagree, for me he was average in an average team. But this is just my opinion.

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1 hour ago, big blue said:

Henderson is way better than Mount currently, passing, tackling, tactically, leadership, vision, mentality. He is captain for one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the world for a reason. 

I dont think mount starts 30 games for Liverpool or City at the moment, so the answer to the previous question, would be no, he isnt good enough to start regularly for a title winning side.

But in a couple of years he may be, but he has some areas of his game he really needs to improve, which is normal for a 21 year old. There is also no harm un pointing out said flaws, as long as criticism doesnt turn into abuse, which unfortunately it does regularly on twitter. 

If 2 years ago someone had told you Henderson would be the league wining captain of Liverpool would you have agreed?

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2 minutes ago, dkw said:

If 2 years ago someone had told you Henderson would be the league wining captain of Liverpool would you have agreed?

Probably since he just lost a champions league final, and ran city close in the league. 

Mount is a great prospect with gteat potential, Henderson is the finished article, not really comparible. 

Personally dont think Mount starts regularly at Liverpool or City. Thats not to day i dont think he can improve. I'm not expecting the finished article at 21. 

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3 minutes ago, big blue said:

Probably since he just lost a champions league final, and ran city close in the league. 

Mount is a great prospect with gteat potential, Henderson is the finished article, not really comparible. 

Personally dont think Mount starts regularly at Liverpool or City. Thats not to day i dont think he can improve. I'm not expecting the finished article at 21. 

I'm not sure Mount vs. Henderson is the right comparison. Henderson is a totally different role and is also one of the main leaders in their team. A fairer comparison would be Mount v. Foden I would think. Both have broken into their respective teams in the last year or so and both are still learning. I agree that Mount should not be starting every game when all are fit but right now we are still missing 2 of our key wingers for a start.

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2 hours ago, big blue said:

Henderson is way better than Mount currently, passing, tackling, tactically, leadership, vision, mentality. He is captain for one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the world for a reason. 

I dont think mount starts 30 games for Liverpool or City at the moment, so the answer to the previous question, would be no, he isnt good enough to start regularly for a title winning side.

But in a couple of years he may be, but he has some areas of his game he really needs to improve, which is normal for a 21 year old. There is also no harm un pointing out said flaws, as long as criticism doesnt turn into abuse, which unfortunately it does regularly on twitter. 

My point is title winning teams aren't built around a team of top players, they arent all the best players in the world in their positions. A title winning team is always the sum of its parts, it needs to function as a team to the managers tactics and needs. If you plonked the best player in the world into a title winning team it doesnt automatically get better.

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1 minute ago, dkw said:

My point is title winning teams aren't built around a team of top players, they arent all the best players in the world in their positions. A title winning team is always the sum of its parts, it needs to function as a team to the managers tactics and needs. If you plonked the best player in the world into a title winning team it doesnt automatically get better.

I agree with that point. I just didnt think the comparison was a particularly natural one to make, given where Henderson is in his career compared to Mount. 

We have seen players like Danny Simpson win league titles, so 'good enough to play in a title winning side' is a pretty loose term anyway. 

I just took it as whether he would get in the side of the 2 recent champions, so for me that would be no. But like you say, football isnt played on paper.

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1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

That implies that we won because the competition wasn't strong enough doesn't it? That's a false claim, nobody was ready for Conte's tactics it has nothing to do with the competition but with our gameplan/formation/tactics.

After Conte's 3-4-3 was destroying the league several teams adopted it directly from us, Conte influenced the league very strongly so if nobody knew about that kind of a playstyle right now and we had Conte we might as well could have the same outcome by winning the league.

Mason Mount is essential to Lampard's tactic and by his own design he is pushing Mount to keep pressing and working hard all around the pitch.

Mount is for Lampard what Jorginho was for Sarri more or less. When our wingers, Pulisic and Ziyech are back and when Mount starts playing more central with Havertz we shall see just how powerful this tactic will be.

It implies that 93 points may not be enough anymore to win the league as long as Klopp and Guardiola are around. Yes.

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11 hours ago, Valerie said:

The nuance was needed from you, and that's what I've been pointing out. If you don't mean to say 'everybody' then don't write it! So yes, I'm deliriously happy now :biggrin:

Pick your battles Val, we've currently got a forum in one of its most depressing stages ever and you're picking a fight with me over that?? Come on...

It's hard to refrain from blanket statements, we all do it. But everyone knows that there's always going to be  tiny minority regardless, only a small minority of posters were slamming Tammy on this forum over that penalty miss. Most were reasonable, that for me is enough. No matter what you're going to get your critics. Hell I remember Dixon was slaughtering Mourinho after he just won the title here, even though 99.99999% of the forum was smitten with him at the time. You could've quite easily still have said the forum loved Mourinho, even though there were the odd number of people who still disliked him. 

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2 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

What a stupid thing to say. No it doesn't.

So in 2 of the last 5 years an underdog has won the league. You're right though, its always the favourite that wins. No one else has any chance at all, especially if Mount is in your starting 11. 😴

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2 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

So in 2 of the last 5 years an underdog has won the league. You're right though, its always the favourite that wins. No one else has any chance at all, especially if Mount is in your starting 11. 😴

Now you're just building strawmen, I never said any of that.

Question is are you really so deluded to think anyone can win the league with any squad?

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2 hours ago, Vagabond said:

Now you're just building strawmen, I never said any of that.

Question is are you really so deluded to think anyone can win the league with any squad?

Leicester proved that, they were shocking the year before and spent about £40m and won the league.

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