22 minutes ago, Argo said:

People are being overly dramatic on here. Liverpool lost by the very same score to West Ham (which out them on a run of two wins in six), Man City have had poor games this season too, and both are still barely ahead of us anyway. We had a poor second half and let in a flukey winner - I am not happy about it and it will certainly ruin my weekend but making sweeping narratives about the season from it is frankly ridiculous. How many times was "top four done" every time we dropped points in the previous three season's for example?

Just to clarify I am not writing off our chances based on a poor result against West Ham. You are right that both Liverpool and City have also had poor results, and probably will do again. However neither of those 2 teams is having to deal with half the first team players out injured, and critical players at that. Liverpool ran into injury issues last year and went on a terrible run that ruled them out of the title race. If we manage to somehow scrape enough points through the next couple of months and stay in touch with them, then I still think we have a chance. However looking at the evidence from the last few games we are really struggling to cope without some of these players, and the injuries are piling up by the game. 

1 hour ago, forbzy said:

Just to clarify I am not writing off our chances based on a poor result against West Ham. You are right that both Liverpool and City have also had poor results, and probably will do again. However neither of those 2 teams is having to deal with half the first team players out injured, and critical players at that. Liverpool ran into injury issues last year and went on a terrible run that ruled them out of the title race. If we manage to somehow scrape enough points through the next couple of months and stay in touch with them, then I still think we have a chance. However looking at the evidence from the last few games we are really struggling to cope without some of these players, and the injuries are piling up by the game. 

I agree it will be a tough ask and of course if we play like we did this week for a large chunk of the remainder we won't get near, but by equal measure if we go back to playing like we did during CHO's run of starts there's every chance we will win it.

While Liverpool and City are great teams and their previous experience of title races is a huge advantage both are not AS formidable as 2-3 years ago, Liverpool are not long off a run of form where they won 2 in 6 and City have had some very dodgy results already, they even conspired to lose to Nuno's Spurs (who even United in the midst of an all time collapse beat without breaking sweat).

6 minutes ago, Argo said:

I agree it will be a tough ask and of course if we play like we did this week for a large chunk of the remainder we won't get near, but by equal measure if we go back to playing like we did during CHO's run of starts there's every chance we will win it.

While Liverpool and City are great teams and their previous experience of title races is a huge advantage both are not AS formidable as 2-3 years ago, Liverpool are not long off a run of form where they won 2 in 6 and City have had some very dodgy results already, they even conspired to lose to Nuno's Spurs (who even United in the midst of an all time collapse beat without breaking sweat).

January could be a key month. Liverpool will lose some key players during AFCON. We will lose Mendy of course but hopefully Kepa will be continue with his decent form when called upon by TT. Looking at the December fixtures I expect both City and Liverpool to pick up close to maximum points. So we have to try and hang on to their coat tails. Then in January we play them both and these 2 games could be massive. Certainly we need to avoid losing either, and wins would be huge.

We may well sign a player or 2 in the January window although I am on the fence about whether that helps or hinders teams in the short term. It could go either way.

2 hours ago, forbzy said:

January could be a key month. Liverpool will lose some key players during AFCON. We will lose Mendy of course but hopefully Kepa will be continue with his decent form when called upon by TT. Looking at the December fixtures I expect both City and Liverpool to pick up close to maximum points. So we have to try and hang on to their coat tails. Then in January we play them both and these 2 games could be massive. Certainly we need to avoid losing either, and wins would be huge.

We may well sign a player or 2 in the January window although I am on the fence about whether that helps or hinders teams in the short term. It could go either way.

Jurgen Klopp was asked after Liverpools game if our earlier defeat was significant in terms of the title race. He responded with a shrug of the shoulders, a "yeah, not really". The manner of it implied he did not see us as competition.

9 hours ago, Faisal said:

I’m a little disappointed with the defeatist attitude of some of our fan base. Yes it’s frustrating that we lost while are our rivals won and gained points . But keep in mind that it’s a long season and even if city win they’ll be 2 points ahead. That’s the nature of the PL sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Did city fans or Liverpool fans lose hope when they lost to Palace or West ham. No they moved on. I know it’s depressing the last few games we lost our flare but I’m hopeful it’ll be a wake up call to the players and Tuchel not to be complacent and get there act together. No team is perfect. Let’s move on and take each game at a time and wait for the right moment to reclaim top spot. 

Looking at the fixtures Liverpool or City won't be dropping any points until at least Jan when Liverpool play us; in between that we have some difficult fixtures including away at Wolves, I reckon by the end of January City will be over the horizon with Liverpool not far behind.  We are just about 3rd best in the league and I reckon that's where we'll end up with Utd creeping into 4th

Now when the vast majority of you is already in REM stage of sleep, it's time for the night owl to give his verdict of today's unfortunate set of circumstances which ruined our weekend. 

First of all, hats off to West Ham. I was genuinely afraid that we could slip up here, especially after the Watford game, and it showed there was a good reason for that. This would've been a tough one even if there were no injuries in our squad.

I think we can be pretty satisfied with the most of the first half, except for that penalty. Why didn't Mendy just kick the ball out is a mistery to me. Although Jorginho's mistake has also played a part, we can all agree that Mendy had enough time to clear the ball. 

Second half was a different story. We've been completely outplayed in all areas of the pitch. Lots of 50/50 duels lost, individual errors, lack of concentration etc. Especially when it comes to our midfield duo of Jorgi and Ruben who were too lethargic, and therefore they never stood a chance against Rice and Soucek. That second goal was really unlucky, there was nothing much Christensen could've done. Maybe Mendy could have saved it on another day. As for the third goal, as Jose used to say, I prefer not to speak. 

So what exactly happened today?

1. Injuries - lots of players were missing, including Chilwell and Kante as two key players. RLC can't cover Kante's spot and Alonso doesn't offer what Chilwell does. Now imagine Liverpool without Robertson and Fabinho. Not exactly as good as with them, right?

2. Havertz's injury. The key moment of the game for me. For some reason it has completely changed the way we played. There was no fluency in attack when Lukaku came on. He was waaaay too static and with that movement you can't expect chances to be put on a plate for him. Don't get me wrong, I still believe we've got the right man to score goals. But we have to change something and play to his strenghts because we were toothless for 45 minutes.

3. Mendy. Had a proper shocker. But if we can forgive anyone a poor performance, it has to be him. Just remember how many times did he save us. He's a human after all and these things happen in football. I don't even doubt that he's going to bounce back like nothing happened.

As for Thomas, the only objection I have is he subbed on Pulisic instead of Werner. If you ask me Werner should've even been a starter here. The rest of team selection was probably the only logical one given we're injury-plagued.

I'll say it again, everyone will be dropping points sooner or later. This could be a blessing in disguise for us, we have to wake up now. I see a tight schedule, although a bit easier compared to those of Liverpool and City. Yes, we are all worried right now, but it's not the time to panic. Now is the time to get behind this team. They can overcome this. Let's go step by step and not plan ahead too much. Let's secure that top spot in the Champions League first. Roll on Wednesday! 🔵

37 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Jurgen Klopp was asked after Liverpools game if our earlier defeat was significant in terms of the title race. He responded with a shrug of the shoulders, a "yeah, not really". The manner of it implied he did not see us as competition.

Until this round we were top of the table. They are ONE point ahead of us. Not to mention we've been absolutely bossing the game at Anfield, and if it wasn't for anthony taylor (purposely in lowercase), we would've won comfortably by two or three goal margin. Why should we care about what he says? 

3 minutes ago, wizardous said:

Until this round we were top of the table. They are ONE point ahead of us. Not to mention we've been absolutely bossing the game at Anfield, and if it wasn't for anthony taylor (purposely in lowercase), we would've won comfortably by two or three goal margin. Why should we care about what he says? 

Not saying we should, just given a few of us are feeling negative about our title challange I found it interesting he was so bold. Would not see Pep doing that.

Also losing to West ham a blessing? Never lol. Not to mention it has cost us Havertz with a lukaku style injury, Alonso and possibly Jorginho too. 

30 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Not saying we should, just given a few of us are feeling negative about our title challange I found it interesting he was so bold. Would not see Pep doing that.

Also losing to West ham a blessing? Never lol. Not to mention it has cost us Havertz with a lukaku style injury, Alonso and possibly Jorginho too. 

I don't really think he meant it that way. It's still way too early in the season to predict anything. No manager would tell you 'yes it's good our rivals have dropped points and we're so happy about it'.

This team needed a wake up call. It came just at the right time. I'm not talking about injuries here. Just about momentum.

1 hour ago, wizardous said:

I don't really think he meant it that way. It's still way too early in the season to predict anything. No manager would tell you 'yes it's good our rivals have dropped points and we're so happy about it'.

This team needed a wake up call. It came just at the right time. I'm not talking about injuries here. Just about momentum.

Hard to know with Klopp, he loves a bit of controversy, hence the "little" African cup comment.

The injuries will make the wake up call harder to hear for TT imo. I mean look who is out likely for the festive period at least.

Chilwell, Alonso, Chalobah, Kovacic, Kante, Havertz. Apart from Alonso that is 5 first 11 players imo.

Add to that Jorgi carrying and injury and needing a break and Werner and Lukaku woefully short of match sharpness, hence their last respective appearances for us they were awful, it is a huge ask for TT to turn this festive period around and have us flying for when we face pool.

Edited December 5, 20214 yr by axman2526

Bad day at the office IMO. On balance we were arguably the better team, that clusterf**k of a first West Ham goal though, Christ. 
 

TT needs to get hold of Mendy and tell him to knock that stuff on the head. For me a goalkeeper should never be beaten from that distance either for the third, intentional, fluke or whatever.

Individual mistakes( Mendy) cost us the game.that is  clear. Two goals on  him. He has been wobbly for sometime now with stray passes. Yes, made some saves which other gollies would have done. One more f...up like that and he should be dropped as any other player.  Kepa under Tuchel has been decent and should get his fair chance too regardless of outcome

 

2 hours ago, rocker_joker said:

Individual mistakes( Mendy) cost us the game.that is  clear. Two goals on  him. He has been wobbly for sometime now with stray passes. Yes, made some saves which other gollies would have done. One more f...up like that and he should be dropped as any other player.  Kepa under Tuchel has been decent and should get his fair chance too regardless of outcome

 

Was there any talk of dropping Cech for Hilario or Turnbull every time the former had a bad game?

Edou's first true disasterclass over a year in and now he should be one more mistake away from being dropped for bloody Kepa, ridiculous! 

24 minutes ago, Argo said:

Was there any talk of dropping Cech for Hilario or Turnbull every time the former had a bad game?

Edou's first true disasterclass over a year in and now he should be one more mistake away from being dropped for bloody Kepa, ridiculous! 

Yes I agree some of our fans are very fickle. Mendy has been outstanding since he came in and because he had horror show to some that warrants benching him for Kepa in the next fixtures. Fact is every team has a disastrous spell. City and Liverpool are no exception. There is still a half season to play and we are 2 points from the top. Let’s stop being overdramatic and take it one step at a time 

1 hour ago, Argo said:

Was there any talk of dropping Cech for Hilario or Turnbull every time the former had a bad game?

Edou's first true disasterclass over a year in and now he should be one more mistake away from being dropped for bloody Kepa, ridiculous! 

Don't find your comparison of Cech v Hilario/Turnbull much relevant to Mendy v Kepa. Hilario/Turnbull were never brought to be first choice keepers, while Cech was a perennial top keeper bought to be our first choice. Cech was good at everything including penalties. Mendy is not. Kepa was bought to be our first choice(had solid first season and lousy second) as well as Mendy(had good first season. second remains to be seen). Now Mendy into his second season and he starting to show the signs why possibly other top clubs never considered earlier.

In regards to Mendy's clean sheets.  It has probably to do more with the fact that our defence was so solid barely giving any chances when he mostly was spectator in many games. Yes, he made some decent saves but many keepers do that too and last year he was an upgrade on Kepa at the time. Now our defence is becoming a bit wobbly he doesn't look that confident. In the past few games his stray passes could have cost us a goal or two and the game against West Ham is his worst performance.  His penalty saving record is also atrocious.
If he didn't give away that stupid penalty yesterday i doubt West Ham would smell weakness and got back into the game. 

I think Kepa should get his fair chance if Mendy underperforms again, although I think there is actually a high chance that Tuchel drops Mendy for the next game already.

I know that many disagree with me on Mendy, but i think if player starting to underperform he needs to be dropped to get his sh..t togther. They are professionals who make in a week more than most of us in few years. They should not be making these types of mistakes at this level. There are lower leagues for that.

 

Edited December 5, 20214 yr by rocker_joker

17 minutes ago, rocker_joker said:

Don't find your comparison of Cech v Hilario/Turnbull much relevant to Mendy v Kepa. Hilario/Turnbull were never brought to be first choice keepers, while Cech was a perennial top keeper bought to be our first choice. Cech was good at everything including penalties. Mendy is not. Kepa was bought to be our first choice(had solid first season and lousy second) as well as Mendy(had good first season. second remains to be seen). Now Mendy into his second season and he starting to show the signs why possibly other top clubs never considered earlier.

In regards to Mendy's clean sheets.  It has probably to do more with the fact that our defence was so solid barely giving any chances when he mostly was spectator in many games. Yes, he made some decent saves but many keepers do that too and last year he was an upgrade on Kepa at the time. Now our defence is becoming a bit wobbly he doesn't look that confident. In the past few games his stray passes could have cost us a goal or two and the game against West Ham is his worst performance.  His penalty saving record is also atrocious.
If he didn't give away that stupid penalty yesterday i doubt West Ham would smell weakness and got back into the game. 

I think Kepa should get his fair chance if Mendy underperforms again, although I think there is actually a high chance that Tuchel drops Mendy for the next game already.

I know that many disagree with me on Mendy, but i think if player starting to underperform he needs to be dropped to get his sh..t togther. They are professionals who make in a week more than most of us in few years. They should not be making these types of mistakes at this level. There are lower leagues for that.

 

It doesn't matter why they were brought initially, the fact is Edou has been largely excellent for his entire time here and Kepa hasn't, the last time Kepa was the first choice keeper he had a 52% save percentage over an entire season, I think time and a few decent cup appearances is making people forget just how bad Kepa was as a number one. He's largely proven to be a decent enough number 2 but he can't be trusted as number 1 and he proved that over a considerable period of time. You may now cite to Lampard tax but Mendy was sweeping up on clean sheets under Frank aswell.

Regarding the point about the defense, no defense on the planet is solid if they have little confidence in the keeper behind them (case in point ours and United's previously impenetrable defenses of the mid to late 00s suddenly started looking a lot more vulnerable when it was Hilario and Foster in goal instead of Cech and VDS). Also it's not like yesterday is the first time the defense has fell apart this season, all the previous occasions Mendy stood up and won us the points (Villa, Brentford, Watford) or saved us from an absolute hammering (City).

He's got more than enough credit in the bank to be let off yesterday, if it becomes a theme over a period of months then maybe this conversation could be had (but even then any possible solution will be in the market not with Kepa).

Our last 6 games in the prem include NO back to back wins. You don't win leagues with such inconsistent form. For the last 5 years one of or both of Liverpool and City have managed to knock out a ridiculous run of wins and at least one of them will do so again this season. It's such a high standard and I ultimately you need goalscorers to achieve that. If we had at least two of Mount (to a lesser degree),  Werner, Havertz and Lukaku scoring on a regular basis we would be up there. We rely on defenders doing an attackers job far too much. 

1 hour ago, KonaKai Blue said:

Our last 6 games in the prem include NO back to back wins. You don't win leagues with such inconsistent form. For the last 5 years one of or both of Liverpool and City have managed to knock out a ridiculous run of wins and at least one of them will do so again this season. It's such a high standard and I ultimately you need goalscorers to achieve that. If we had at least two of Mount (to a lesser degree),  Werner, Havertz and Lukaku scoring on a regular basis we would be up there. We rely on defenders doing an attackers job far too much. 

Yup usually around a 15 game win streak. 

4 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Yup usually around a 15 game win streak. 

Somewhere around 90 points is typically required to win the league, occasionally more. That requires the kind of consistency and points return that we saw in our first 10 games. The halfway point is 4 games away. If win those next 4 we would be right on target at 45 points, but that is a big if.

Such a wierd week, so much so our normally superb defence resembled the keystone cops, bar Silva that is. Rudiger looked the Rudiger under lampard, AC the AC that faced Barca. Total inept, missed Trev big time.

Deserved to beat United, Drew

Deserved to lose at Watford, Won

Deserved to beat West ham, Lost.

Football, it is a funny old game eh?

5 hours ago, forbzy said:

Somewhere around 90 points is typically required to win the league, occasionally more. That requires the kind of consistency and points return that we saw in our first 10 games. The halfway point is 4 games away. If win those next 4 we would be right on target at 45 points, but that is a big if.

Should not be. Next 5 we should win if we show up with focus and the right attitude. West ham are better than any of our next 5 league opponents, and we lost to them because we gave them 3 goals.

10 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Such a wierd week, so much so our normally superb defence resembled the keystone cops, bar Silva that is. Rudiger looked the Rudiger under lampard, AC the AC that faced Barca. Total inept, missed Trev big time.

Deserved to beat United, Drew

Deserved to lose at Watford, Won

Deserved to beat West ham, Lost.

Football, it is a funny old game eh?

I don't think our defense was the biggest problem. Yes they didnt play that well, it can happen especially against player Antonio. 

The biggest problem from the three games were the 4 catasthropic level mistake because it ruined everything. I know football didn't work like this but if you took out 2 Jorgi brain fart and 1 mendy brain fart,we would have gotten full 3 points from manu and west ham game.

Nice one boys...almost 3-1

Kepa's been superb here. 2 game saving stops so far

We imploded after our goal. Safe to say this 11 will never feature again.