Liverpool vs Chelsea (PL) Sun 20th October 24 16:30 GMT

[Simplymo]

1 hour ago, nonotnowjim said:

I do get that I am a broken record - but genuinely cannot understand why some are advocating for Jackson to start again over Chris? He was awful against Forest and Brighton.

My obvious bias aside, there is no way that on form and output on the pitch, that he should start over Chris.

Because he's better than nkunku on the counter attack which I guess may be the only way to get something out of this imo.

I doubt Liverpool will sit back and defend. Can't deny how fast Jackson is or how many times he's run in behind off the shoulder of a defender (just look at your notes in rgds to his off sides...lol)

[Simplymo]

In rgds to defence and/or set pieces, I know this was the B team but this image still gives me nightmares. Lol

 

[just]

2 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Were we not facing the tallest team in the league in Forrest? I mean before that match we only conceded once from a set piece all season and this is with Enzo and Cucurella in the team. I'd say we've improved in that regard. 

I can only see it getting better with Tosin, Veiga, and Lavia included in the side. 

We haven't improved. We are dire at set piece defending. Not every set piece creates a chance and not every chance is taken. But our organisation and defensive match ups in those situations are very poor. There is merit in the argument that we do not have many players who are strong in the air. Only Fofana and Colwill stand out in that respect when you look at the current % of aerial duels won stats. Interestingly, but not a shock to me, (and certainly more fodder for @nonotnowjim) is Jackson as joint lowest with only a 25% win rate. Jackson is poo in the air for someone his height. Even Cucurella is slightly better at 34.6%. But that doesn't tell the whole story. Match players up by height at set-pieces and make them responsible for their attacker, I guarantee you, we will be better immediately.

[Sconnie Blue]

14 minutes ago, just said:

We haven't improved. We are dire at set piece defending. Not every set piece creates a chance and not every chance is taken. But our organisation and defensive match ups in those situations are very poor. There is merit in the argument that we do not have many players who are strong in the air. Only Fofana and Colwill stand out in that respect when you look at the current % of aerial duels won stats. Interestingly, but not a shock to me, (and certainly more fodder for @nonotnowjim) is Jackson as joint lowest with only a 25% win rate. Jackson is poo in the air for someone his height. Even Cucurella is slightly better at 34.6%. But that doesn't tell the whole story. Match players up by height at set-pieces and make them responsible for their attacker, I guarantee you, we will be better immediately.

I disagree. I've seen improvement this season. With the first team at least. 

[just]

11 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I disagree. I've seen improvement this season. With the first team at least. 

OK let's try to take this to common sense and basics. Do you think Cucurella picking up 6'5" Milenkovic at corners and free kicks on Sunday was a sensible set-piece defensive tactic? If you were manager, might you have looked to change that match-up?

[Sconnie Blue]

1 hour ago, just said:

OK let's try to take this to common sense and basics. Do you think Cucurella picking up 6'5" Milenkovic at corners and free kicks on Sunday was a sensible set-piece defensive tactic? If you were manager, might you have looked to change that match-up?

No, because I don't believe either Maresca or Cueva are rash enough to make our players accountable for strict man marking defending when our tallest outfield player is 6'2" and isn't the greatest aerially. There's a reason we defend zonal. We are always going to put Colwill, Fofana & Caicedo to defend the most dangerous zone, which is in front of goal. If we are asking our players to man mark Chris Wood at 6′ 3″, Milenković at 6'5", or Ryan Yates at 6′ 3″, we are going to lose every time. 

Gusto lost his battle against Milenkovic but the bigger issue was neither Fofana or Caicedo reacting quick enough to Chris Wood after the ball was played into their zone. 

Arsenal the kings of set pieces have conceded just as much as we have this season. 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2024 by Sconnie Blue

[axman2526]

On the above there is no point in any of our forwards competing in the air with VVD and Konate. When we are defending set pieces we need Tosin and Veiga on those two.

Always worth remembering our south American players, and African ones, will have longer travel and later returns due to time zone differences.

Argentina host boliva on the Wednesday before this game, kicking off at 1:30AM UK time.

Ecuador are away in Uruguay kicking off at 12:30AM the same Wednesday UK time.

 

Senegal are away in Malawi kicking off at 2:00Am UK time again on Wednesday.

Now I know we are a Sunday game not a Saturday one but you have to factor this in, and know Caicedo, Enzo and Jackson will be tired from the flights, altitude and weather changes, and changing time zone twice in quick succession.

Unfortunately in midfield we have little option to accommodate this, unless we partner Lavia with KDH, Carney or Casadei.

[axman2526]

5 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

I do get that I am a broken record - but genuinely cannot understand why some are advocating for Jackson to start again over Chris? He was awful against Forest and Brighton.

My obvious bias aside, there is no way that on form and output on the pitch, that he should start over Chris.

I would not start either of them against Liverpool.

[Sexyfootball]

5 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

But how many times has that happened this season? Only twice from my recollection. I’ve been fairly impressed with our improvement in defending set pieces & second balls (in the league). 
 

 

That chart might even be useful if it was actually correct 🙂 

Taking the heights on the club web site page for our first team squad, we are average 184.8 for the whole squad, and 183.2 for the outfield players excluding keepers. Either way, we aren't remotely down at 178  !!!! We've only got 4 players that are less than 178 ... Cucurella and Neto are both 173, Mudryk is 175 and Nkunku is 177. Adarabioyo at 196 counters all of them (and more) on his own !

[19seventyone]

Lavia must start.

Jackson will start.

Tosin and Levi at the back.

Vincent at left back.

3-1 to the Chelsea.

(Jackson 2, Palmer)

 

[PloKoon13]

1 hour ago, Sexyfootball said:

That chart might even be useful if it was actually correct 🙂 

Taking the heights on the club web site page for our first team squad, we are average 184.8 for the whole squad, and 183.2 for the outfield players excluding keepers. Either way, we aren't remotely down at 178  !!!! We've only got 4 players that are less than 178 ... Cucurella and Neto are both 173, Mudryk is 175 and Nkunku is 177. Adarabioyo at 196 counters all of them (and more) on his own !

That's for last season.

[Sconnie Blue]

1 hour ago, Sexyfootball said:

That chart might even be useful if it was actually correct 🙂 

Taking the heights on the club web site page for our first team squad, we are average 184.8 for the whole squad, and 183.2 for the outfield players excluding keepers. Either way, we aren't remotely down at 178  !!!! We've only got 4 players that are less than 178 ... Cucurella and Neto are both 173, Mudryk is 175 and Nkunku is 177. Adarabioyo at 196 counters all of them (and more) on his own !

My bad. That was for last season. 

[Sexyfootball]

1 hour ago, PloKoon13 said:

That's for last season.

 

1 hour ago, Sconnie Blue said:

My bad. That was for last season. 

OK, I missed that, but it's still a load of bo**ocks though.

This was last season's squad : 

Average height 183.8 or 182.6 if you exclude the goalkeepers

[just]

7 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

No, because I don't believe either Maresca or Cueva are rash enough to make our players accountable for strict man marking defending when our tallest outfield player is 6'2" and isn't the greatest aerially. There's a reason we defend zonal. We are always going to put Colwill, Fofana & Caicedo to defend the most dangerous zone, which is in front of goal. If we are asking our players to man mark Chris Wood at 6′ 3″, Milenković at 6'5", or Ryan Yates at 6′ 3″, we are going to lose every time. 

Gusto lost his battle against Milenkovic but the bigger issue was neither Fofana or Caicedo reacting quick enough to Chris Wood after the ball was played into their zone. 

Arsenal the kings of set pieces have conceded just as much as we have this season. 

 

 

Fofana and Colwill are the best we have in the air. I repeat. You put our best against their best. Forget feckin zonal!!!! It's not rocket science. Forget Tottenham have 0.76cm greater average height in kitten heels. Is it a good idea to pitch your best header of the ball against theirs?

f**ks sake. 

Back on. Let's take your scenario and run with it. Front of goal, the most dangerous area. I assume because its the only area a goal can be scored? I am a wily and experienced opponent manager named Shaun Dyche. My counter plan is to tell my set piece takers to by- pass the front of the goal, where you have cunningly amassed all your tall players,  to my tallest 6'5" player at the back post who is being marked, with some difficulty, by your 5'6" defender. 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2024 by just

[Deino]

11 hours ago, just said:

Fofana and Colwill are the best we have in the air. I repeat. You put our best against their best. Forget feckin zonal!!!! It's not rocket science. Forget Tottenham have 0.76cm greater average height in kitten heels. Is it a good idea to pitch your best header of the ball against theirs?

f**ks sake. 

Back on. Let's take your scenario and run with it. Front of goal, the most dangerous area. I assume because its the only area a goal can be scored? I am a wily and experienced opponent manager named Shaun Dyche. My counter plan is to tell my set piece takers to by- pass the front of the goal, where you have cunningly amassed all your tall players,  to my tallest 6'5" player at the back post who is being marked, with some difficulty, by your 5'6" defender. 

 

 

Back in the glory days even Drogba was on defensive set piece duties. Idk how you can't just put our tallest and best aerial players against the opponents regardless where they play on the field.

Zonal doesn't mean much when you put 5'9 players up against 6'4 opponents

[just]

1 hour ago, Deino said:

Back in the glory days even Drogba was on defensive set piece duties. Idk how you can't just put our tallest and best aerial players against the opponents regardless where they play on the field.

Zonal doesn't mean much when you put 5'9 players up against 6'4 opponents

Spot on Deino. Exactly what we should be doing.

[Ledg]

Confirmed - Alisson will be out until after next month's int break (yeah, there's another one in November...)

Kelleher will turn into prime Buffon again anyway...

[Sconnie Blue]

12 hours ago, just said:

Fofana and Colwill are the best we have in the air. I repeat. You put our best against their best. Forget feckin zonal!!!! It's not rocket science. Forget Tottenham have 0.76cm greater average height in kitten heels. Is it a good idea to pitch your best header of the ball against theirs?

f**ks sake. 

Back on. Let's take your scenario and run with it. Front of goal, the most dangerous area. I assume because its the only area a goal can be scored? I am a wily and experienced opponent manager named Shaun Dyche. My counter plan is to tell my set piece takers to by- pass the front of the goal, where you have cunningly amassed all your tall players,  to my tallest 6'5" player at the back post who is being marked, with some difficulty, by your 5'6" defender. 

 

It really isn't that complicated.

Fofana and Colwill aren't great aerially. That's something you really need to grasp. And @Deino, they aren't Drogba mate.  If Fofana marks Milenkovic out wide, Milenkovic is still winning that header 10 times out of 10 with the ball JWP played. Once that header is played into the middle we are now one CB short to react to it. Or JWP ignores Milenkovic, notices we have a CB out wide, and plays a ball in the middle. The central spaces are always prioritized

Zonal marking isn't perfect but there is a logic behind it. Crazy how we haven't conceded more given the way you're going about how easy it is for teams to expose this. Yet we have conceded just as many set piece goals as Arsenal and City who both play 4-5 CBs. All season our players (starters) have reacted well to balls played into dangerous areas. Caicedo and Fofana both didn't react quick enough when they should of. 

A lot of our counter attacks begin when defending set pieces via zonal marking too. 

 

[axman2526]

2 hours ago, Ledgerson said:

Confirmed - Alisson will be out until after next month's int break (yeah, there's another one in November...)

Kelleher will turn into prime Buffon again anyway...

Kelleher is a really good number 2, solid. They won't miss Allison for most the games he is out. Arsenal being the exception imo.

[axman2526]

Salah has withdrawn from the Egypt squad for the second leg of their AFCoN qualifier, (they lead 2-0), to return to England sooner and be rested up for this game. Done with the Egypt FAs blessing.

[19seventyone]

On 06/10/2024 at 19:07, axman2526 said:

If Colwill is injured we may as well save the rest of the A team for our Greece trip and accept what is coming at anfield. Just 2 goals let in by them so far.

Cause Badiashile and Tosin vs Diaz and Salah wont be pretty.

Not having that.

They haven’t really played anyone and lost at home to Forest. They are a good team but we can definitely beat them.

[axman2526]

21 minutes ago, 19seventyone said:

Not having that.

They haven’t really played anyone and lost at home to Forest. They are a good team but we can definitely beat them.

We have not really played anyone either, bar City, who outclassed us completely. 

Both teams have played the also-rans of the league, bar city. So let's see. 

[19seventyone]

2 hours ago, axman2526 said:

We have not really played anyone either, bar City, who outclassed us completely. 

Both teams have played the also-rans of the league, bar city. So let's see. 

Key will be the midfield for me. If able to play 90 minutes then Lavia has to start. Their midfield is pretty mobile which is Enzo’s weakness imo. It’s going to be a massive game for Veiga if he’s covering Salah and stepping into midfield.

Maybe Sancho goes to the bench for Neto.

We are more than capable of getting a result there. 

[icecoolguy22]

Agree Lavia has to play, either as an extra Midfielder or in place of Enzo ( which will be a brave call). Left side defence will be key, need the extra help to cover Salah and TAA. We will score, the issue is how many we could keep them down to.

[SydneyChelsea]

On 09/10/2024 at 23:49, Sconnie Blue said:

It really isn't that complicated.

Fofana and Colwill aren't great aerially. That's something you really need to grasp. And @Deino, they aren't Drogba mate.  If Fofana marks Milenkovic out wide, Milenkovic is still winning that header 10 times out of 10 with the ball JWP played. Once that header is played into the middle we are now one CB short to react to it. Or JWP ignores Milenkovic, notices we have a CB out wide, and plays a ball in the middle. The central spaces are always prioritized

Zonal marking isn't perfect but there is a logic behind it. Crazy how we haven't conceded more given the way you're going about how easy it is for teams to expose this. Yet we have conceded just as many set piece goals as Arsenal and City who both play 4-5 CBs. All season our players (starters) have reacted well to balls played into dangerous areas. Caicedo and Fofana both didn't react quick enough when they should of. 

A lot of our counter attacks begin when defending set pieces via zonal marking too. 

 

FBRef says that we've conceded more directly from a FK than either Arsenal or City, though it is a moot stat anyway given the tiny sample size of 7 games and actually the majority of the clubs in the league have conceded less than 2 set piece goals anyway.

Zonal marking is a compromise tactic. It was invented to address height differences in amateur football. It gives smaller teams a much better chance at defending set-pieces against bigger teams, but there are diminishing returns. It rarely works without significant adjustment at the top-flight level, because the quality of athlete is much higher. 

The problem with zonal marking in an inexperienced team is always that it is inherently reactive, not proactive. Man-marking schemes require players to proactively disrupt their opponent whereas zonal marking encourages defenders to assess whether the ball will enter their zone, instead of trying to disrupt them directly. Ironically, this means that zonal markers do not effectively handle aerially superior opponents because they ball-watch all too often.

Jury is out for me on the marking scheme. I think the players are way too inexperienced and the current system leads to stupid matchups and situations like the farce against Gent. Happy to give it some time while we are doing well but it really needs to be sorted soon.

Edited October 13, 2024 by SydneyChelsea