The thing about Torres that particularly pisses me off, is not that he has lost his pace, which has been clear since he joined us, it's not even that other aspects of his game are second-rate, such as his touch, dribbling, hold-up play, link-up play etc. The real problem is his movement and the fact he hides. He is on his heels a lot of the time and he makes the wrong runs and he fails to attack the space in the penalty box. For this reason some have been fooled that we don't provide the service, and because football is a team game, the player that hides can often pull the wool over people's eyes. I have said all along, if you watch Ven Persie for instance (who doesn't rely on pace) or Drogba for that matter, they make crosses look good, because they anticipate, they gamble, they move, and they make sure that if the cross is whipped into the right space, they'll be first on to it. If you stay on your heels and don't provide that movement, the cross will never end in a goal and some deluded souls will blame the service. It's basic centre-forward stuff and Torres has forgotten how to do it, and a large part of this is mental. He needs to stop worrying about missing chances and he needs to stop flapping his arms in the air at his teammates. It is not their fault. Players like Moses, Hazard, Oscar, Mata, are immensely capable, far more capable than him. He needs to look closer to home, as I've always said. If he takes responsibility for his own performances he might start making improvements. Up to now it appears he has blamed everybody but himself. If you look at Sturridge, the fundamental difference is that he's looking to score. Forget all the other stuff forget all the complaints about him. We know he's not perfect. He's looking to score. He sniffs out an opportunity, he sees the space, and he runs into it. He is continually looking to get on the end of things, just as Ba was on Saturday. Suddenly, against Southampton, the argument about service became null and void. Why? Because we had a centre-forward that knew how to do his job. I'll tell you one thing, it must have been a hell of a different experience for Mata and Co. They looked up, they looked forward, and suddenly they had an opportunity to create. It must have been manna from heaven for them, and Torres needs to look and learn.

Where do you sit at Stamford Bridge?

I only recall him being booed against Wigan (which was the only one I recall provoking discussion at the time so one would assume was the worst) and like I said previoulsy it was as much groans of frustration as it was booing.

 

I don't remember there being any discussion or reports of him being booed at any of the other games nor did I hear it myself.

 

You got a link for the reports of abuse after the West Brom game?

 

Upper WS 

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/983777/chelsea-investigate-alleged-racial-abuse-aimed-at-daniel-sturridge?cc=5739

 

 

Where have I blamed Lukaku for what we paid? Answer the question

Where have I been hatefull to Lukaku about his personality? Answer that question

You signed off your original post on this matter with an implication that I had hated on Lukaku, I can't see evidence of this.

 

 

Have I said you blamed Lukaku for what we've paid, I've said you don't want people to criticize Torres based on what we paid - while criticizing Lukaku for the same thing. 

 

Have I said you were hateful to Lukaku? 

 

I've said you were being a grade A hypocrite not that you hated on Lukaku

Upper WS 

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/983777/chelsea-investigate-alleged-racial-abuse-aimed-at-daniel-sturridge?cc=5739

 

You sit in the West Upper? I didn't know there was any noise form that part of the Bridge, booing or otherwise.

 

I sit in the MHL and like I say I can only recall the Wigan game.

 

I remember that accusation now you provide the link. It was only an allegation against a single moronic fan though wasn't it- as disgusting as it is (if true) it hardly represents our fanbase as a whole- it is an isolated incident from one fan. One fan.

I was at the West Brom game and he wasnt booed. I seem to recall saying the same thing when someone brought it up after the game on here. I have no idea where those reports came from.

 

He was utterley crap, mind you.

^ bjd, they're talking about Sturridge.

 

Apologies if you already know that.

Why do people make it seem like Torres was alone in that atrocious performance against West Brom? The entire team bar Hazard didn't give two sh*ts about the game. And RDM alone is to blame for not starting Torres against Juventus, he showed a complete lack of sense in the selection for the Juve game.

 

I agree!

 

Now that we have signed Ba it may actually help Torres. It might induce him to fight for his place. There have been matches this season where he played quite well. He has scored 15 goals so far. That's not bad.

You sit in the West Upper? I didn't know there was any noise form that part of the Bridge, booing or otherwise.

 

I sit in the MHL and like I say I can only recall the Wigan game.

 

I remember that accusation now you provide the link. It was only an allegation against a single moronic fan though wasn't it- as disgusting as it is (if true) it hardly represents our fanbase as a whole- it is an isolated incident from one fan. One fan.

 

It's the reason that's why I can hear the booes and the abuse he gets - can't say I've heard the same for many members of the first team other than Malouda 

 

 

 

I was at the West Brom game and he wasnt booed. I seem to recall saying the same thing when someone brought it up after the game on here. I have no idea where those reports came from.

 

He was utterley crap, mind you.

 

This is a quote from a lad who was at the game:

 

 

"Sad to say there is truth in the report. Some of our """support""" yesterday was a disgrace, too much moaning and whining and not enough getting behind the team for me. I know he missed good chances but Sturridge was the only player to come over at the end, the rest that could be bothered gave us a polite clap from 60yds away. DS gave his shirt to a fan with plenty of boos and quite a few unsavoury comments. Our support has been polarised, either completely sanitised or totally spoilt and impatient."

My comments were purely based on Lukakus performance, I've not blamed him for how much he cost, I've stated that an agent must be pissing himself if we paid the alleged fee!

If you want to compare that to people calling Torres a c**t & a cancer I'll let you get on with it!

The thing about Torres that particularly pisses me off, is not that he has lost his pace, which has been clear since he joined us, it's not even that other aspects of his game are second-rate, such as his touch, dribbling, hold-up play, link-up play etc. The real problem is his movement and the fact he hides. He is on his heels a lot of the time and he makes the wrong runs and he fails to attack the space in the penalty box. For this reason some have been fooled that we don't provide the service, and because football is a team game, the player that hides can often pull the wool over people's eyes. I have said all along, if you watch Ven Persie for instance (who doesn't rely on pace) or Drogba for that matter, they make crosses look good, because they anticipate, they gamble, they move, and they make sure that if the cross is whipped into the right space, they'll be first on to it. If you stay on your heels and don't provide that movement, the cross will never end in a goal and some deluded souls will blame the service. It's basic centre-forward stuff and Torres has forgotten how to do it, and a large part of this is mental. He needs to stop worrying about missing chances and he needs to stop flapping his arms in the air at his teammates. It is not their fault. Players like Moses, Hazard, Oscar, Mata, are immensely capable, far more capable than him. He needs to look closer to home, as I've always said. If he takes responsibility for his own performances he might start making improvements. Up to now it appears he has blamed everybody but himself. If you look at Sturridge, the fundamental difference is that he's looking to score. Forget all the other stuff forget all the complaints about him. We know he's not perfect. He's looking to score. He sniffs out an opportunity, he sees the space, and he runs into it. He is continually looking to get on the end of things, just as Ba was on Saturday. Suddenly, against Southampton, the argument about service became null and void. Why? Because we had a centre-forward that knew how to do his job. I'll tell you one thing, it must have been a hell of a different experience for Mata and Co. They looked up, they looked forward, and suddenly they had an opportunity to create. It must have been manna from heaven for them, and Torres needs to look and learn.

Well this is all new information.

^ bjd, they're talking about Sturridge.

 

Apologies if you already know that.

 

I know its easy to assume playing crap and Torres go in the same sentance but yes i was talking about Sturridge!!

It's the reason that's why I can hear the booes and the abuse he gets - can't say I've heard the same for many members of the first team other than Malouda 

 

Well I think I will trust my own ears considering I sit in the MHL and I don't recall him being booed other than the Wigan game.

My comments were purely based on Lukakus performance, I've not blamed him for how much he cost, I've stated that an agent must be pissing himself if we paid the alleged fee!

If you want to compare that to people calling Torres a c**t & a cancer I'll let you get on with it!

 

 

I've not compared it to people calling Torres a cancer to what you've said about Lukaku, just commented on your hypocrisy and why it brings negatives to Torres on this thread. 

 

I've compared the abuse Sturridge got in actual matches to the abuse Torres gets on an internet forum - I know which one is worse, the question is DO YOU?

This is a quote from a lad who was at the game:

 

 

"Sad to say there is truth in the report. Some of our """support""" yesterday was a disgrace, too much moaning and whining and not enough getting behind the team for me. I know he missed good chances but Sturridge was the only player to come over at the end, the rest that could be bothered gave us a polite clap from 60yds away. DS gave his shirt to a fan with plenty of boos and quite a few unsavoury comments. Our support has been polarised, either completely sanitised or totally spoilt and impatient."

 

No way was he the only player to come over. I didnt see any of that involving DS and certainly didnt hear any booing.

 

If true its a disgrace, but sadly not surpsiring bearing in mind some of the plums who go to games these days.

Edited January 9, 201313 yr by bjd

I've not compared it to people calling Torres a cancer to what you've said about Lukaku, just commented on your hypocrisy and why it brings negatives to Torres on this thread.

I've compared the abuse Sturridge got in actual matches to the abuse Torres gets on an internet forum - I know which one is worse, the question is DO YOU?

Seeing as when I go to games I don't sit in the corporate seats I'd say I'd be a better judge of who gets abuse or not at games! As I've already said I don't agree with booing players.

I've also said that if people are abusive about Torres on the Internet they should have that same courage if they met him in person!

Well this is all new information.

 

I was countering the argument that it's all about a loss of pace, which some are giving.

 

Edit: If I want to keep abreast of updates, I'll stay tuned to you.

Edited January 9, 201313 yr by Davey Baby

I've also said that if people are abusive about Torres on the Internet they should have that same courage if they met him in person!

 

I've no idea what you are on, I prefer people vent on the internet rather than boo and abuse our players in person. 

I've no idea what you are on, I prefer people vent on the internet rather than boo and abuse our players in person.

Ah an Internet warrior!

I was countering the argument that it's all about a loss of pace, which some are giving.

I think the loss of pace IS the culprit, here. Your previous post was accurate in that, too often, Torres doesn't make the proper run or get into the "right" space. But he didn't make great runs before, either. He was just so fast that it didn't matter.

Without that world class pace, he's a little lost, and his confidence has obviously suffered. It's understandable. As I said yesterday, any professional athlete who loses his most valuable physical tool is going to start to doubt himself.

Torres COULD be a great striker again, but he'd need to learn to be effective without that pace (like RVP, as you mentioned). He's tried to adapt his game -- he doesn't play the same way he used to at Liverpool. But to this point, it hasn't been good enough. There are plenty of strikers who are lethal, but not "fast." Torres needs to improve his first touch, make quicker decisions, and get some confidence back.

He HAS scored some goals like that. He anticipates, make a great run, and gets a head/toe/whatever on the end of a pass/cross, and knocks it in. But then he reverts to "bad Torres," where he stops doing those things.

I think the loss of pace IS the culprit, here. Your previous post was accurate in that, too often, Torres doesn't make the proper run or get into the "right" space. But he didn't make great runs before, either. He was just so fast that it didn't matter.

Without that world class pace, he's a little lost, and his confidence has obviously suffered. It's understandable. As I said yesterday, any professional athlete who loses his most valuable physical tool is going to start to doubt himself.

Torres COULD be a great striker again, but he'd need to learn to be effective without that pace (like RVP, as you mentioned). He's tried to adapt his game -- he doesn't play the same way he used to at Liverpool. But to this point, it hasn't been good enough. There are plenty of strikers who are lethal, but not "fast." Torres needs to improve his first touch, make quicker decisions, and get some confidence back.

He HAS scored some goals like that. He anticipates, make a great run, and gets a head/toe/whatever on the end of a pass/cross, and knocks it in. But then he reverts to "bad Torres," where he stops doing those things.

 

Good post. Admittedly, like you say, there have been a few games in the last 2 years where he has impressed, but whether he can be a great striker again, as you assert, I seriously doubt. No chance for me I'm afraid. In fact, he hasn't been a great striker since before we signed him, although, in his pomp, he was great, there is no doubt about it. Even Sheva, when he was with us, showed glimpses of his previous form, but it's not enough, the ability to do it consistently and when the tests are sternest have gone. The problems may have initially been physical, as you say, but now that is compounded by the mental side of things, which is where I think Torres is weakest. I have seen many strikers fall injured but I haven't seen any hide in the way he does, and I think it's because he's brittle mentally.

Good post. Admittedly, like you say, there have been a few games in the last 2 years where he has impressed, but whether he can be a great striker again, as you assert, I seriously doubt. No chance for me I'm afraid. In fact, he hasn't been a great striker since before we signed him, although, in his pomp, he was great, there is no doubt about it. Even Sheva, when he was with us, showed glimpses of his previous form, but it's not enough, the ability to do it consistently and when the tests are sternest have gone. The problems may have initially been physical, as you say, but now that is compounded by the mental side of things, which is where I think Torres is weakest. I have seen many strikers fall injured but I haven't seen any hide in the way he does, and I think it's because he's brittle mentally.

That's a fair post. I would just differentiate between "CAN" Torres be a great striker again, and "WILL" Torres be a great striker again. Can he? Sure. First and foremost he needs to develop some confidence as a different (slower) striker. The first touch and quicker decision making could follow that.

Will he? Seriously doubt it. I think he likely will continue to improve some (be it here or at another club), but will never get back to what he was.

You CAN teach an old dog new tricks, and as I've said, I credit Torres for trying to adapt his game to a different style, and to different abilities personally. And that's why I say I think he will still continue to improve, little by little. But if I had to guess, he never had to learn/develop all the little technical nuances that, say, RVP did. When in doubt, turn on the jets, dust a defender, and shoot. He can start developing those skills now, but at 28, he'll never get them down as well as someone who started developing those skills when he was 16.

Edited January 9, 201313 yr by TrojanMan

Well this is all new information.

 

This comes to mind every time I pop in here.  The thread title doesn't disappoint. 

That's a fair post. I would just differentiate between "CAN" Torres be a great striker again, and "WILL" Torres be a great striker again. Can he? Sure. First and foremost he needs to develop some confidence as a different (slower) striker. The first touch and quicker decision making could follow that.

Will he? Seriously doubt it. I think he likely will continue to improve some (be it here or at another club), but will never get back to what he was.

You CAN teach an old dog new tricks, and as I've said, I credit Torres for trying to adapt his game to a different style, and to different abilities personally. And that's why I say I think he will still continue to improve, little by little. But if I had to guess, he never had to learn/develop all the little technical nuances that, say, RVP did. When in doubt, turn on the jets, dust a defender, and shoot. He can start developing those skills now, but at 28, he'll never get them down as well as someone who started developing those skills when he was 16.

 

Good stuff. The interesting thing is, some of his best goals at Liverpool, were nothing to do with pace. There were some brilliant headers for example, where he showed remarkable bravery. One in particular at West Ham sticks in the memory. There were some goals where he only needed an inch of space, but his instinct and predatory power were remarkable. Today what we see, sad to say, is a player who runs towards the man on the ball when we are counter-attacking, because he is scared of being presented with a genuine chance. He ignores obvious runs and stays on his heels. That instinct and predatory power have gone. Yes the pace has gone as well, and it was frightening, but were it not for the brittleness mentally, he would still be a decent striker and he is not, not most of the time anyway.

He has scored 2 goals this season where I've thought 'that's a real strikers goal' the 1 against Arsenal & the 1 against Villa, both of those goals showed that somewhere deep inside he still has that strikers instinct.

The question is how does he dig that instinct out week in week out?

Making his 100th appearance for Chelsea tonight.

 

In his credit, he hasn't been injured once, scored an important goal against Arsenal this season and ummm has excellent hairband technique.

 

Roll on the next 100!! 

I agree with that too, Davey.

But back in the Liverpool days, he was a young, amazingly fast, top-of-the-world striker. And for all reports of him being a completely humble man, he had to know how good he was. With that knowledge comes swagger. And with swagger comes the goals you mentioned -- brave headers, predatory instincts, etc.

I wish he was mentally strong enough to "fake" that swagger until those instincts come back, but that's not easy for most people.