On 7/10/2016 at 15:31, didierforever said:

If oscar/mikel somehow outlast him, then there is something very wrong at this club

or to be more accurate is the manager, he's the one who picked the team..   Conte will only use cesc if we're chasing the game which means he never intended to involve cesc in his original safety first plan but did his original plan work?? Apart from burnley and to a lesser extent hull, I would say it's hardly working, not to mention both burnley and hull were atrocious on that day..

 

Given the manager's playing style, we somehow are lacking offensively and I just think you don't go and further make things worse by breaking up cesc-costa combination.. I certainly don't enjoy the way we're playing at the moment overall..

3 hours ago, bola said:

Conte will only use cesc if we're chasing the game which means he never intended to involve cesc in his original safety first plan but did his original plan work?

Fabregas was Conte's 'plan A' against Arsenal, say no more.

27 minutes ago, coco said:

Fabregas was Conte's 'plan A' against Arsenal, say no more.

And his plan A against Liverpool was to leave Fabregas on the bench for 80 minutes, not exactly a roaring success.

Maybe it's Conte's plans that are the problem.

It's obvious he will leave in January but am sure we will later regret allowing him to go because you will pay a lot to find someone as creative as he is but it will be cheaper to find an upgrade on the likes of Matic and Oscar who will be here for a long time.

1 hour ago, Englishman said:

And his plan A against Liverpool was to leave Fabregas on the bench for 80 minutes, not exactly a roaring success.

Maybe it's Conte's plans that are the problem.

I agree the Liverpool game was poor, but it was the defence that went to sleep for the first goal, the second goal was a screamer from Henderson. And Liverpool are on a run and have looked like the best team in the league this last month.

The Arsenal game was probably the worst performance i have seen from any Chelsea midfield this century, we made them look good, it was that bad, that's why Conte pulled Cesc after just 55 mins.

1 hour ago, coco said:

I agree the Liverpool game was poor, but it was the defence that went to sleep for the first goal, the second goal was a screamer from Henderson. And Liverpool are on a run and have looked like the best team in the league this last month.

The Arsenal game was probably the worst performance i have seen from any Chelsea midfield this century, we made them look good, it was that bad, that's why Conte pulled Cesc after just 55 mins.

Yeah it was all Cesc's fault. Kante was absolutely awful that game, the ref was quicker to get back than him.

1 hour ago, Ernie_blue said:

Yeah it was all Cesc's fault. Kante was absolutely awful that game, the ref was quicker to get back than him.

Have you got a problem with your reading ? I put 'midfield', which includes Kante.

Conte obviously thought we would do better taking off a midfielder and bringing a defender and switching to three at the back. The midfielder he took off was Cesc, make of that what you like, but we din't concede again after that.

1 hour ago, coco said:

Have you got a problem with your reading ? I put 'midfield', which includes Kante.

Conte obviously thought we would do better taking off a midfielder and bringing a defender and switching to three at the back. The midfielder he took off was Cesc, make of that what you like, but we din't concede again after that.

At 0-3 down it was just about damage limitation by then, so swapping a creative midfielder for more defensive-minded players was hardly surprising. Even so, us not conceding again was probably more because Arsenal were happy to coast through the rest of the match than anything we did.

In my opinion we need a creative midfielder and Cesc is one of the best in the world. He doesn't defend well, but he is not the problem, the problem has been the crap defence we have. Populating our midfield with defensive players hasn't solved the problem, and we lack creativity in the attacking front. Get sorted the denfence and we can play Cesc as a starter.

1 hour ago, Englishman said:

At 0-3 down it was just about damage limitation by then, so swapping a creative midfielder for more defensive-minded players was hardly surprising. Even so, us not conceding again was probably more because Arsenal were happy to coast through the rest of the match than anything we did.

Exactly, the game was won and over by then. Arsenal just sat back and took it easy, tbh they still had more chances in the second half but I think they missed them because Fabregas wasn't on the pitch.

53 minutes ago, RMH said:

In my opinion we need a creative midfielder and Cesc is one of the best in the world. He doesn't defend well, but he is not the problem, the problem has been the crap defence we have. Populating our midfield with defensive players hasn't solved the problem, and we lack creativity in the attacking front. Get sorted the denfence and we can play Cesc as a starter.

Chelsea don't need 4 defensive minded midfielders and leave Hazard to do all the work. No other top team does it or maybe Chelsea are not a top team anymore.

54 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Chelsea don't need 4 defensive minded midfielders and leave Hazard to do all the work. No other top team does it or maybe Chelsea are not a top team anymore.

And that is exactly what I mean. We need a creative, attacking midfielder. Sort out the defence, that is what is really needed.

And that is exactly what I mean. We need a creative, attacking midfielder. Sort out the defence, that is what is really needed.

Well Conte probably thinks swapping Fabregas for Bonucci is the solution to EVERYTHING.

2 hours ago, wallosh said:

Well Conte probably thinks swapping Fabregas for Bonucci is the solution to EVERYTHING.

And your basing this ridiculous statement on what?

I'd like to see Cesc play in the system we used against Hull, I think he'd do well in the deep midfield role sitting behind Costa and the two attacking midfielders.

Always going to be that question mark about if he'll be good enough defensively but with up to six other defence minded players in the team I think he can be allowed some creative licence. 

29 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

I'd like to see Cesc play in the system we used against Hull, I think he'd do well in the deep midfield role sitting behind Costa and the two attacking midfielders.

Always going to be that question mark about if he'll be good enough defensively but with up to six other defence minded players in the team I think he can be allowed some creative licence. 

That's a good point, a team needs someone like Fabregas who can play balls into the channels, over the top or in short for players like Hazard. It's gives variety and his passing accuracy is good. Chelsea are not going to get this from Kante and Matic, it's not there job so it can't be expected. Others have made the comparison and so have I but Fabregas and Carzola are very similar players and Arsenal play Carzola.

5 hours ago, wallosh said:

Well Conte probably thinks swapping Fabregas for Bonucci is the solution to EVERYTHING.

 

2 hours ago, dkw said:

And your basing this ridiculous statement on what?

I guess he refers to the reports that say that Conte would be willing to swap Hazard for Bonucci, and Juve would have asked for Cesc instead of Hazard. But these are just rumours, and ridiculous in my opinion.

I'd like to see Cesc play in the system we used against Hull, I think he'd do well in the deep midfield role sitting behind Costa and the two attacking midfielders.
Always going to be that question mark about if he'll be good enough defensively but with up to six other defence minded players in the team I think he can be allowed some creative licence. 

He will easily fit in when you play him deep and that's when you can also get the best out of Costa.
And sometimes I wonder why we still worry about Fabregas' defending when we have already signed Kante for 30m so he can be the defensive midfielder to provide cover for the defence. Is Kante not up to the job? Fernadinho is doing that job alone for Manchester City and they are scoring goals. Yet I won't take Fernandinho over Kante on current form.

I've been saying for awhile, I would love to see a 3-5-2 (3-1-4-2 of sorts).

 

Courtois

Azpi / Luiz / Cahill*

Fabregas

Willian / Kante / Matic / Alonso

Costa / Hazard

 

*When Zouma comes back, he needs to slot into one of the three CB spots, preferably over Cahill. Terry for depth. Small sample size with Azpi in the back 3 but so far, so good. Not sure if he really should be a permanent wingback, either. He's too good of a player to not play...

...segmenting right into Cesc Fabregas. Far too important to have only cameo appearances when we're chasing the game. He plays better in a deeper midfield position. It's shown time and time again. Push Matic and Kante ahead of him and let him do his thing. Kante should be in the box to box mold. Matic can drop back when Cesc pushes up the field in attack.

Alonso staying put at LWB. I would like to see more competition at this spot next season with Rahman and even Ake. Willian (or Moses in that RWB role that Moses performed very well). Moses looked aggressive and dangerous. He does need to work on his passing accuracy; that was one of my complaints from that performance in the role. I think Willian would be capable of this.

Pushing Hazard to a SS position, paired with Costa could do wonders. His defensive assignments would be much more limited and it would put him closer to goal, win-win, in my eyes.

Bench consisting of: Batman, Moses, Oscar, Mikel (Chalobah/RLC), Ivanovic, Terry, Begovic

Cesc is world class, he's been there and done it at one of the world's best clubs and the fact is we're lucky to have him.

I hope Conte's long term plan is to integrate him into the first team side in Matic's position. I think he's so unsure about our defence at the moment that he feels the need to use both Kante & Matic as protection. Although as we've seen over the last year and a half, Matic offers little protection and is essentially a spare part on current form who if this continues till Jan, we need to offload.

Ideally I'd like us to be in a position where we can start Cesc alongside Kante however I think Conte needs assurances that our defence is improving and as of yet, that's not happened. Keep Cesc at all costs otherwise we will rue to regret the decision in my opinion...

5 hours ago, Batshuayi said:

deally I'd like us to be in a position where we can start Cesc alongside Kante however I think Conte needs assurances that our defence is improving and as of yet, that's not happened. Keep Cesc at all costs otherwise we will rue to regret the decision in my opinion...

This x10,000.

Fabregas can't play as a modern no. 10 because he lacks the energy and athleticism to break into the opposition box. The performance and goals against Leicester are sadly the exception, rather than, the rule, when it comes to Fabregas's style of play. He also tends to receive the ball back-to-goal or chasing down clearances from Courtois, which is pointless for a player of his skillset. 

Fabregas's most suited position is deeper in midfield but as I argued earlier in this thread he simply is too much of a defensive liability with Ivanovic at RB, because he is absurdly bad at cutting out passes. However, with Ivanovic dropping to the bench and Matic not really offering anything exceptional in defense or attack, the greater attacking threat that Fabregas is going to pressure the opposition far more than a limp Matic.

That said, if we want to move forward as a team, he should be sold in the summer. He lacks the athleticism needed for the modern game and he would be a liability against the top European teams (if we ever get there again). The problem is only going to get worse with age and injury, so we might as well sell him while we can still get a very respectable sum.

Edited October 10, 20169 yr by SydneyChelsea

He could still be playing the Pirlo role, who was never a gifted athlete but relying on his exquisite passing, decision making, position etc. It's easy to write him off, but who else in the team has the ability to hit an accurate 20-30 yards pass consistently?

Surely there is room in the side for class.I was gutted when Mata was sold and i will feel the same if Fabregas goes.Selling creative,entertaining players bugs me.Workrate,workrate,workrate is all the game is about now but you need players with brains and guile.IMO.

There are big differences between Pirlo and Fabregas. Firstly, from an attacking perspective, Pirlo exemplified the deep lying playmaker role. Fabregas has never really played the role the same way Pirlo did. Fabregas was made to adapt his game to be very similar to Xavi at Barcelona, and he somewhat stagnated between the reinvention of Iniesta (as an out-and-out AM), the emergence of Thiago Alcantara and Xavi's own longevity. He's definitely a more dynamic playmaker than Pirlo in that he operates and makes runs closer to the opposition box, whereas Pirlo was at his best picking out players with outrageous passes from deep, as well as providing a safety option for retaining possession. It would be like calling Lampard or Gerrard "deep-lying playmakers" - yes, they are more than capable of picking out a 30+ yard pass to a forward, but it's only one aspect of their game.

Fabregas, for my money, doesn't have the quickness or energy to play his proper role at the highest level anymore. We'll never see the Fabregas of Arsenal or early Barcelona days again because of stagnation and injury, and the changing of the game to include far more mobile players in midfield. He could be used as a stop-gap no. 10 or a stop-gap deep-lying playmaker and he may very well succeed for a short time, but based on his history it would be folly to then assume he will continue to succeed in that role.

Secondly, Fabregas is a great player but Pirlo is a generational talent. They're not really in the same class. It's an unfair comparison in the same sense it's unfair to compare Mikel to Makelele or blaming Tiago for not being as good as Essien. Pirlo was successful in that role because he largely defined it with his talent, and any comparison or attempt to copy it will inevitably fall short.

There are big differences between Pirlo and Fabregas. Firstly, from an attacking perspective, Pirlo exemplified the deep lying playmaker role. Fabregas has never really played the role the same way Pirlo did. Fabregas was made to adapt his game to be very similar to Xavi at Barcelona, and he somewhat stagnated between the reinvention of Iniesta (as an out-and-out AM), the emergence of Thiago Alcantara and Xavi's own longevity. He's definitely a more dynamic playmaker than Pirlo in that he operates and makes runs closer to the opposition box, whereas Pirlo was at his best picking out players with outrageous passes from deep, as well as providing a safety option for retaining possession. It would be like calling Lampard or Gerrard "deep-lying playmakers" - yes, they are more than capable of picking out a 30+ yard pass to a forward, but it's only one aspect of their game.
Fabregas, for my money, doesn't have the quickness or energy to play his proper role at the highest level anymore. We'll never see the Fabregas of Arsenal or early Barcelona days again because of stagnation and injury, and the changing of the game to include far more mobile players in midfield. He could be used as a stop-gap no. 10 or a stop-gap deep-lying playmaker and he may very well succeed for a short time, but based on his history it would be folly to then assume he will continue to succeed in that role.
Secondly, Fabregas is a great player but Pirlo is a generational talent. They're not really in the same class. It's an unfair comparison in the same sense it's unfair to compare Mikel to Makelele or blaming Tiago for not being as good as Essien. Pirlo was successful in that role because he largely defined it with his talent, and any comparison or attempt to copy it will inevitably fall short.

Obviously nobody expects him to be a Pirlo, we just want him to play the position he feels comfortable with. He played that deep position for us in that 2014/2015 season when we won the league and we saw him at his best then. Creating lots of chances for our forwards to score goals for fun and he was arguably the best midfielder in the EPL that season. So that's just what we want. But unfortunately the less creative Matic now occupy that spot which means the likes of Costa, Hazard and Willian will have to work more harder and sometimes drop back a bit to get the ball from Matic and Kante to keep up possession. And I think this is the reason why Hazard and Costa sometimes struggle in games. Look at Sterling who doesn't have to always drop back to get the ball, he currently looks a better player than Hazard because he saves his energy for the purpose of attacking the opponents. So I think Conte needs to study our players more and play to there strength.