12 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

I don't think he helped his case much yesterday.

his quality with the ball isn't in doubt, and whilst he wasn't helped by playing in a two man midfield, I doubt conte was impressed with how ineffectual he was with the ball against 11 men- naturally he offered little without it as you would expect- but he also wasn't really able to establish control over the game. 

against 10 men it was a different story, and it speaks to his fitness that he was one of the players that really came to the fore later on, but I'm sure conte is well aware of what he is capable of. he was very clinical. perhaps he could be used as a second forward, especially with kante in the side, but I suspect his display will calcify the impression conte has of him- someone to break a game with his quality when the game is open rather than the type of player he can rely on to run them.

 

p.s. cesc is also in a bind in that he doesn't have the energy (or dribbling skills) to play advanced in a 4231 IMO. he is best facing the play rather than on the half turn. under jose playing there would mean we were deep and defensive so he'd have between 1-3 players ahead of him to pass to. under conte that might be different, which would help, but I don't see it being an ideal fit. I've said it before but I find it hard to see where he fits into the type we're trying to apply, other than directly in front of our defence (which would require a lot of restructuring around him).

I tend to agree. When Cesc has an impact in games, they tend to be key / match-winning. Last night and him coming on as sub against Watford are great evidence of what he can do. But the flip side is how poor he can be defensively - opponents go by him with ease or he fouls them and we give away dangerous free-kicks (he nearly gave away a penalty late on against Swansea too).

Weighing it all up, my heart says I'd start him ahead of Oscar but my head tells me it could well backfire. I guess that's why it has to be horses for courses and pick the games for him to start or come on as sub in. Think Conte has played it right up to now although no doubt I'll be moaning again next time we don't win a game and Cesc is sitting on the bench getting splinters!

 

If he didn't play deep but in front of the midfield (as some have already suggested), his defensive inability wouldn't matter that much and the team would gain from his quality. Not all in the team need to be like Zouma or Kanté. If Conte tries to have the possession, the team gains with a quality player like Fabregas.

I think so too and I don't think oscar is a player who necessarily deserves to be dropped (on the basis of the season so far, rather than just the liverpool game), but I think we missed a trick in not giving cesc a go with kante instead of matic last night. they were overrun, and overrun by a midfield two of drinkwater and king- that should be enough to tell us we can't play a 442 with those guys in midfield together again.

Think its time for Matic Kante Cesc midfield. 

 

Plenty of legs around him with those two. Will offer so much more than Oscar going forward.

Would rather give CHalobah a shot than persist with Matic at the moment.

If Oscar, Matic and Willian play against Arsenal then Chelsea will really lack creativity. I can't even see Chelsea getting in the top 4 with that team. Hazard doesn't contribute enough goals and we can't rely on Costa. Costa is deadly but will be banned and most likely injured at some point.

Fabregas brings to the team no other player in the squad can. What I find funny is it seems most fans seem to be as worried about defending before attacking like the manager. Arsenal, Liverpool, City, Spurs, Everton don't play defensively first and don't seem the need of 3 defensive midfielders and a right winger who runs a lot. I won't include United because we all know how Mourinho sets his teams up.

Chelsea are much better than having to go into every game worrying about Oscar better play because Fabregas might leave us exposed at the back. Yes Chelsea have been poor defensively but looking at the other top teams, which teams actually have a top defence? City play Kolorav at the centre back, Arsenals isn't great, Liverpools defiantly isn't that great and only have Henderson as a DM. I would say Spurs have the best defence.

Chelsea have spent over 20m on a LB, we need to commit to him now and give him the games to have a fair chance at Chelsea. Dave needs to play at RB and Ivanovic needs to be a squad player. Stop sticking with the old and move on with the new. It's poor Chelsea still look a shambles without Terry but if he needs to play every league game then so be it. Play Zouma or Luiz with him and they can learn how to defend properly for a season.

Chelsea have the best DM in the league. You look at the defenders and it's not actually a bad bunch of players but as a unit they seem to crumble. It's  upto the manager to sort it out but there's defiantly a way to put Fabregas in the team, Chelsea need the creativity.

rant over

36 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Fabregas brings to the team no other player in the squad can. What I find funny is it seems most fans seem to be as worried about defending before attacking like the manager.

This may seem a bit harsh, but let's be honest, for the first 90 minutes last night he hardly brought anything to the team, the first 45 minutes he was out of the game, Leicesters midfield was dominating our midfield which was all over the place.

I'm more worried about our midfield than our defence. With JT and Zouma about to return we could be ok at the back.

It wasn't until they went down to 10 men, and then into extra time, that he popped up with the two goals, neither of which he created. 

Anyone who pretends he is the answer to our problems in midfield, are ultimatley going to be disappointed.

37 minutes ago, Zeta Orionis said:

Would rather give CHalobah a shot than persist with Matic at the moment.

WAs going to post exactly the same thing but I'll second that!

36 minutes ago, coco said:

This may seem a bit harsh, but let's be honest, for the first 90 minutes last night he hardly brought anything to the team, the first 45 minutes he was out of the game, Leicesters midfield was dominating our midfield which was all over the place.

I'm more worried about our midfield than our defence. With JT and Zouma about to return we could be ok at the back.

It wasn't until they went down to 10 men, and then into extra time, that he popped up with the two goals, neither of which he created. 

Anyone who pretends he is the answer to our problems in midfield, are ultimatley going to be disappointed.

But that wasn't Chelsea's strongest team and without the best DM in the country. It's about finding a formation/strategy that suits Chelsea's most creative and best passer. Otherwise it's stick with Willian, Oscar and Matic and how many teams does that really scare? I made numerous comments about the lack of creativity before the Liverpool game and it was clear to see. Burnley is one thing but a top team is another.

To be fair if the team Conte has played so far is the team he wants with Oscar, Matic and Kante in the middle then so be it. But I honestly think it won't be good enough for top 4. If Conte doesn't believe in Fabregas in his first team then thats what he thinks, Fabregas will be off in January or next summer if that's the case. If Fabregas finds himself on the bench on Saturday at least he knows where he stands with the manager now if he wasn't sure before.

1 hour ago, Zeta Orionis said:

Would rather give CHalobah a shot than persist with Matic at the moment.

Agreed, Matic doesn't fill me with confidence, Chalobah looked assured when he came on.

By the noises coming from the manager and the player I think Cesc not starting matches is no big deal to either of them . I did argue that potentially Conte was saving him for "bigger" games but that seems to be untrue

It is only September it is all new to Conte, I think he has a big disadvantage over Pep, Jose and Klopp  in terms of preparation time and knowing the league, this is his first venture out of Italy..... I have full confidence in the man and I think Cesc will play a major role for us this season. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

But that wasn't Chelsea's strongest team

Was it Leicesters ?

12 minutes ago, coco said:

Was it Leicesters ?

Was it? Is that the best you can come up with?

That wasn't the point, there's a vast difference between Matic and Kante. There's also a big difference between a team which is set up at its best to supplement each player in the team and get the best out of each player individually and as a team than playing in the darling cup.

Playing in a midfield two? No, Cesc isn't the answer, but playing at the top of a midfield three, I think we could see great things from him there. Kante Can cover enough ground for two players, Matic has looked back somewhere near his original level for us, but the problem is, when they win the ball, they aren't creators, and neither is Oscar, we need an outlet that isn't Hazard, it's too easy for teams to try and mark him out of the game. Cesc wasn't great in the first half the other night, Leicester pressed very hard, but not every team will play like that, and we have to get used to it when it does happen, but as the game wore on he started to pull the strings from the centre circle, which coincided with Chalobah coming on and Cesc being pushed further up the pitch

2 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

But that wasn't Chelsea's strongest team and without the best DM in the country. It's about finding a formation/strategy that suits Chelsea's most creative and best passer. 

19 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Is that the best you can come up with?

 

You want more ? 

You talk about creativity as an individual attribute, but this is a team game, and the best creativity comes from good team work, not from a singular player/pass.

The fourth goal last night for instance. Hazard started the move, Diego set it up, and Cesc finished it. But none of them individually created that goal.

Pinning our hopes on an individual player for most of our creativity would be a bad move.

Cesc deserves his place in the team. Not just for his passing and creativity but also for his set-pieces.

Also cant understand why we would drop Matic just after he put in his best performance in a year and in general seems to be improving every game.

Matic is not the player that links our attack and mid, that is Oscar's role in which he fails miserably. Cesc SHOULD replace Oscar against Arsenal.

11 minutes ago, coco said:

 

You want more ? 

You talk about creativity as an individual attribute, but this is a team game, and the best creativity comes from good team work, not from a singular player/pass.

The fourth goal last night for instance. Hazard started the move, Diego set it up, and Cesc finished it. But none of them individually created that goal.

Pinning our hopes on an individual player for most of our creativity would be a bad move.

Like you said, was that Leicesters best team? Burnley is one thing but the top teams is another. That team goal was by players who had come against 10 men, it's not like saying Chelsea is City or Arsenal who create chances for fun.

Your right the best creativity does comes from good team work for example City, Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs have more than Chelsea. The problem is Chelsea don't have good team work. You think Oscar, Willian and Matic supply good team work? I am sorry but even Costa doesn't most of the time but that's not his job. Hazard has been hit and miss so far this season. So I reckon getting the best passer/creative player into you first team is very important. For this Chelsea team it is currently the biggest thing for Conte to do. Just my opinion after all and Conte might win the league.

Why don't all the other top teams in the premier need 4 defensive midfielders? Matic, Kante, Oscar and Willian who all offer more defensively than attacking.

15 minutes ago, didierforever said:

Cesc deserves his place in the team. Not just for his passing and creativity but also for his set-pieces.

Also cant understand why we would drop Matic just after he put in his best performance in a year and in general seems to be improving every game.

Matic is not the player that links our attack and mid, that is Oscar's role in which he fails miserably. Cesc SHOULD replace Oscar against Arsenal.

Oscar and Willian's set pieces are rubbish, showed up against Liverpool.

31 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

The problem is Chelsea don't have good team work. You think Oscar, Willian and Matic supply good team work? I am sorry but even Costa doesn't most of the time but that's not his job. Hazard has been hit and miss so far this season. 

I agree with that,we've seen glimpses of it here and there from Hazard and Costa, but not enough. Oscar and Willian have played enough games together now that you would think they would link up a lot better than they are doing. 

 I think there has to be a place for him in the team, even if he wasnt great last night, i thought he played okay tbh, considering he has only played about half an hour for ys so far this season. 

 

He scored 2 and put one on a plate for pedro in the 1st half aswell, thats more end product than any other centre midfielder has produced for us so far this year. 

I also think having the threat of fabregas and now luiz for that direct ball over the top, it stops teams playing as high as they would normally, for fear of leaving soace in behind, which should hopefully give hazard more room to operate. 

 

he took the game by the scruff towards the end and put it to bed for Chelsea, he deserves a start at the camel dome, however I'm not that hopeful as Oscar sat it out last night

Edited September 21, 20169 yr by General

I think we will be daft to get rid of Cesc - particularly with Oscar's tendency to go missing for most of the season. 

You can see that Cesc at least TRIES to create chances for his teammates. Oscar never seems to create, he's just a workhorse. 

@RMCM so basically we need another right winger 

 

 

Edited September 21, 20169 yr by MANoWAR

37 minutes ago, MANoWAR said:

@RMCM so basically we need another right winger 

 

 

 

Lavezzi? Vitolo? or Dries Mertens?

50 minutes ago, JM7 said:

I think we will be daft to get rid of Cesc - particularly with Oscar's tendency to go missing for most of the season. 

You can see that Cesc at least TRIES to create chances for his teammates. Oscar never seems to create, he's just a workhorse. 

 

Hopefully Cesc plays vs Arsenal. I think he still has the momentum from last game.