It's not the start to the season I'm worried about, it's our form over the last 8 months.

I'm not attacking, this is a genuine ask.

How does anyone know, really know, that Jose is stubborn and, if he is, how much so? Also, why is being 'stubborn' viewed as a negative quality, stubborn can also mean persistent, tenacious, qualities needed I would imagine.

We can't know for sure. We can only observe the situation. 

I would guess that he is stubborn because to me there would be plenty of options to deal with the current situations, yet he is not inclined to change anything, Jose has also stated that he prefers playing players through a bad patch in order to motivate them. Then again he would have to confess that that's true only for some players. At the same time he palpably didn't have any patience with other players. So he may not be stubborn, but his public comments and the way he line-ups the team make him look stubborn. How others perveive him will certainly not be the exact reality. Though you can say that most times there is at least a certain amount of truth that stems from an outside perspective - especially when it comes to a personality trait like stubbornness,

As dkw said in another thread, do you not think that Jose has earned the right to be given the opportunity to fix this?

Have to agree it would be ludicrous to sack a manager five games in that had just won the title three months previous unless there are things going on behind the scenes we as fans are unaware of.

 

That said it is clear that some would pull the plug now ( and they are allowed their opinions just like the rest of us). So playing devils advocate... At what point if any of us had the decision would we say enough is enough. Remembering also that any sacking would cost the club over 20 million pounds?

As dkw said in another thread, do you not think that Jose has earned the right to be given the opportunity to fix this?

True, but some would say that we showed signs of this at the end of last season and he should've acted this summer. If i was in a position to decide his future i would want to see changes being made to fix the problem, not just pursueing with plan a which is clearly not working. I can see a january exit if things carry on this way.

Why...No heart, no desire, not competing, no cohesion, no discipline, no confidence, no consistency, no motivation and no planning.   Look at the immense 'world class' talent we have on the pitch.  There is a fine dividing line between a very good player to a 'world class player'...every year we come across lower league teams with very good and average players that beat us and other top 4 teams, that on paper they shouldn't but they do because they compete, they have a strong desire to win,they are disciplined and they have cohesion as a team and they are motivated.  

 

At the moment we have none of the above.  IMO this all started before the season got underway.  Pre-season was an ugly affair players looked tired, not fit, no stamina and looked disinterested throughout, especially the senior players.  This rolled over to the Charity Shield..4 days after returning from an ugly pre-season; totally poor planning on behalf of the club IMO. The team was no where near prepared and no new players had arrived to freshen things up, which everyone knows has to be done Champions or not.   This shambles carried over into the Swansea game and then it was there for the whole world to see how average our defence was against pace, especially with Ivan getting skinned time and time again.  Then to add to the shambolic performance was the medical team pantomime, to which the media had a field day with and to which Jose and the club handled like a bunch of amateurs, certainly not like a 'world class' organization should..it was embarrassing all around and perhaps some players were affected..who knows....was this the first bolt that fell from the wheel?

 

The City game TBH was predictable given the state of affairs at the Bridge and in the Boardroom, no new high profile signings and clear leaks to the press by who knows who in relation to the Stones bid added to the turmoil.  Had Begovic not kept us in the game early on City should have been way out of sight by half time.  Ivan and a few others were having nightmares once again and clearly should have been singled out by the manager behind close doors.  WBA was a lucky win but simply papered over the ever widening cracks that were appearing all over the park.  WBA were simply worse than us on the day and we were bad.

 

Pardew must have relished his game against us.  He had pace, desire, commitment from players and a hunger to win. Whereas our lot had lost the plot especially the back four and the forward line. Costa spent more time interested in yapping and digging at opposition players than an interest in the game.  Several chances were missed that could have changed the game but still we did not look right.  The international break was perhaps Jose's chance of righting the ship but with most of the squad gone there was no time to prepare for the Everton game.   This was one game where we needed to make a statement but we came undone like a cheap sweater.   Players who Jose thought he could rely on didn't show up, not that many of us would believe they would given there recent performances, with Ivan and Fab being the biggest culprits in the first four games.    I would have thought that Jose would have learned a lesson from the previous games but clearly not; he clearly is delusional in his pre-match and post match comments because lately they are becoming more bizarre by the minute and perhaps the pressure is mounting and he is certainly now in a place he has never ever been 16th in the EPL.

 

Still onward and upward as they say as the Blue circus full of clowns and misfits returns home to the Bridge to face the mighty Arsenal...lets hope the ringmaster gets it right this time with his team selection and we are able to get 3 points and start getting ourselves out of this mess.  

I've been wondering if this start where our players look fatigued is down to not wanting to drop of 2nd half of the season meaning the pre season conditioning has been over done.

 

Jose did say that the short pre season was deliberate. Though many of the players whilst we were in the States complained of the double training sessions and the feeling of fatigue in trying to get fit fast.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/598428/Jose-Mourinho-pre-season-Chelsea-undercooked

You say we are 16th, but by monday night we will most likely be 18th and in the relegation zone.

My friends who hate chelsea have actually stopped taking the piss and now feel sorry for me. What a sorry state of affairs!!

Jose is the problem

In times like these it's easy to forget just how much Jose has done for Chelsea. I don't know what is going on, I believe it must come down to lack of confidence which is surprising given their ability last season and lack of form in our star players. Jose will always have his excuses but Chelsea shine better with Jose

Lots of very valid theories expressed so far. I’ll try and sum them up as there is no single thing that needs putting right, it’s a lot more complex than that.

1. CBs getting exposed, leaving them vulnerable to being run at
2. Individual loss of form (multiplied by 9 or 10. Who is remotely near top form? Well, Begovic has done all we could have asked of him, and Pedro has looked very promising……)
3. Fabregas totally unsuited to role alongside Matic. We knew that last season, but persisted with him as we though/ hoped he start creating again, which he didn’t.
4. Lack of viable alternatives to Matic/ Fabregas, as Ramires and Mikel have gone backwards, and RLC is too inexperienced/ not trusted
5. The absence of Oscar (not to mention his weird subbing v Swansea when he was playing well)
6. Costa’s hamstrings, leading to a major drop in his productivity over the past 8 months. Maybe mental issues there as well, due to his rough treatment in the media and from refs, when he is as much sinned against as sinner. Maybe the rumours about him missing Athletico are true.
7. José’s loyalty to his core of players who won him the league last year and his willingness to give them time to play themselves into form. Now looking misplaced as maybe some players feel ‘bomb-proof’: untouchable and complacent. Their current form suggests this.
8. José’s lack of faith in the players outside his ‘core’, which undermines their self-confidence, and their lack of playing time gives them zero opportunities to show what they can do or hit any kind of form.
9. Failure to land the two big signings that would have freshened up the team and created serious competition for places, which is currently not there
10. Sendings off and subsequent suspension of JT have cost us. Both were marginal if justifiable calls that other teams might have got away with. We rarely get favours from refs, and frequently get stitched up by them. Even Naismith could have gone yesterday for his wild kick at Ivan. Costa would have, no question.
11. Very poor pre-season: too short, too much fitness work in a short time, no cohesion or confidence developed at all. Players still physically and mentally hung over from draining effects of punishing run-in, grinding out results to win the title. Maybe some just got pissed off with the attritional style we reverted to to see us over the line.
12. Personal issues in José’s life: stress of father’s illness weighing heavily on him, leaving him unable to cope in a very unfamiliar crisis situation, with the world and his dog and the global media willing him to fail.
13. The medical team debacle. Total fiasco, appallingly handled.  Blaming the physios for depriving us of a player for all of one minute out of 90. Who knows how badly club and team morale have been affected?
14. The loss of key figures like Lamps and Drogs and Cole catching up on the squad. Yes, they’ve been replaced, but their character hasn’t, yet.
15. The slump in form is self-perpetuating as each setback undermines confidence further and morale ebbs away.
16. The injury to Besic yesterday.
17. The failure to take a decent corner all season (see Willian yesterday).

All of these factors have contributed in a significant way. Tackling one would not solve the rest, but hopefully a decent win (two in the coming week would be just fantastic) would see some confidence return and the recovery can begin.

 

I seriously think we should forget the title and use this season the way José used his first one back: building for next season, when we can be really in a position to compete. Winning the league seems to have ripped the guts out of last year’s team and he needs to overhaul it, as the balance that was there has gone, even though the players are still there and have been added to. Ivan isn’t the same, the midfield (Matic/ Fabregas) isn’t the same, JT is another year closer to his exit, so this needs to be a transitional season. I hope José is given the time and resources to do the job. Getting rid of him would be insanity.

Up until Jose came back, we'd been talking about transitional seasons pretty much every year, and it never really works out. Players come and go, but there are never big overhauls, or giving the youth any kind of chance, no matter who has been in charge. The title is gone already, we just get worse every week, so there is no chance of us going on a massive winning run and City also dropping tonnes of points, unless something drastically changes. So I'm not worried about catching City anymore, what the worry is, if we don't change soon, we could be in serious doubt of even qualifying for the champions league, and even a season out of it makes things very difficult when it comes to bringing in top players, and keeping hold of your best players.

Have to agree it would be ludicrous to sack a manager five games in that had just won the title three months previous unless there are things going on behind the scenes we as fans are unaware of.

 

That said it is clear that some would pull the plug now ( and they are allowed their opinions just like the rest of us). So playing devils advocate... At what point if any of us had the decision would we say enough is enough. Remembering also that any sacking would cost the club over 20 million pounds?

 

At the very least the rest of this season, assuming we recover to at least compete for a champions league spot. He should then be given the opportunity to remedy the deficiencies in the squad over next summer and then the start of next season to implement those changes.

 

So for me, assuming we at least compete for top 4 this season (which i'm sure we will), he should get at least until next Christmas.

At the very least the rest of this season, assuming we recover to at least compete for a champions league spot. He should then be given the opportunity to remedy the deficiencies in the squad over next summer and then the start of next season to implement those changes.

So for me, assuming we at least compete for top 4 this season (which i'm sure we will), he should get at least until next Christmas.

Some good points here.

I think it's several factors that came together.

The pre-season was totally botched. Started late, and the travel fro Montreal up & down the USA east coast was not ideal. Players still look tired.

Some players still don't look fit. Hazard in particular still looks a little chunky. He doesn't have the same slippery quickness in the box to weave through players as he did last year. It seems he's not being fouled nearly as much as he has been, which suggests he's been easier to defend.

We miss Oscar. We seem more fluid when he's in there. It seems we are short of ideas when he's out. And our set plays are much more dangerous when he's on them.

We miss big personalities like Drogba and Cech. Especially now in the midst of this crisis. JT's confidence has taken a hit after being subbed off snd he's become tentative in his play- no tackles vs EFC? He may feel as if he is part of the problem and not in position to question others.

But it is worrying that we have not played a good game since per season began. And there are still no resolutions. We have some of the best players and the best manager in the league, and we can't stop the bleeding.

Simplest way to look at it is from the board to the directors, to Jose and his staff to the players, we are not a team.

Teams win matches, a collection of individuals do not.

We have to rebuild our team. If that means a few casualties from the playing staff, so be it.

We need players who want to play for Chelsea, have the heart and desire to. It appears several lost theirs.

At the very least the rest of this season, assuming we recover to at least compete for a champions league spot. He should then be given the opportunity to remedy the deficiencies in the squad over next summer and then the start of next season to implement those changes.

 

So for me, assuming we at least compete for top 4 this season (which i'm sure we will), he should get at least until next Christmas.

Personally I'd say that if we achieved a Champions League place an objective has been made and so I'd say he would then deserve a further full year to at least achieve similar as there are only so many trophies to win with many wanting a slice of the pie.

The point I was making earlier is that slumps are attritional,the game against Arsenal is eminently losable as is the trip to Newcastle. Sandwiched in between is a tricky trip to Walsall where we will play our inexperienced third choice keeper and a scratch team. Just say that things go pear shaped in the next two games suddenly the top four place we are both happy with starts to being endangered. Do you then say another month,stick with the manager come what may? Just interested to guage views by people on here at what point do the board get itchy trigger fingers?

Of course everything changes with a win against the Gooners,confidence starts to return and all these doom and gloom threads disappear. This is why we all love football, forever the optimist whilst fearing the worst.

Have to say Martin Samuel has a point here to: http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/9989712/stagnant-chelsea-have-handed-premier-league-rivals-the-initiative-says-martin-samuel

Something else thats bothered me for a while is that our style of football has zero identity. Back in Mou's first spell our style was obvious, quick wing play with Robben/Duff/Cole supplementing the physical presence of Drogba/Lampard/Makelele/Essien etc. Now we find ourselves trying to play ultra defensive with a team full of small technicians or trying to string together 1000 passes with a back line and midfield unable to recover should the ball be lost. Putting aside the slump, even when on song we play like the defence and attack are part of different teams. 

Jose inherited a great team first time around and with a few additions took them forward,this time he is trying to build his own team, as we've seen from his getting rid of any player who doesnt suit his style, well perhaps he's not very good at building his own squad.

This is a great thread, and exactly what we need to vent our frustrations, so thanks. First things first. If this had been mid-season and we had hit a pot hole losing two games in a row, the sense of "panic" would be much less severe. Now of course, because it is the beginning of the season and we face the prospect of being in "the relegation zone" and looking ahead to a tough match against the Gunners, it is all very uncomfortable. Add to this that our opponents' schadenfreude is dialled to max, it is not a nice feeling. 

 

I think this thread has already stated all the "plausible" reasons for the dip in form, and while Mourinho is a sore loser (it is just his way of dealing with the situation really), I think he had a point in the post Everton match interview though. In fact, looking at the Palace and Everton games, they could easily have been draws. That doesn't exonerate the team, but the situation would have looked different, and this is indeed a classic situation of poor form mixed with rotten luck. Now, one thing I am 100% sure about is that Mourinho and the players will get it right, and go on a run and get the points. Unfortunately, with City cruising at the top, I think the title is now definitely gone. I mean, even if Chelsea steadies the ship, they would have to collapse completely for us to challenge. But looking at Man Utd yesterday for example ... they don't scare me. Our midfield will run circles around these guys on a good day.    

 

In the short run, the mid-week CL match is great. We need games thick and fast now, forget the table, and just play our way out. I actually think Chelsea were on top of Everton in large swathes of the match, but school boy defensive errors (especially the first goal) cost us! No excuses for our defence at the moment; we are vulnerable! But I see this as a question of lacking confidence just as much as something fundamental. 

As for regular players not feeling "the pressure", fair enough, I can see that, and Mourinho has a challenge here, but he is also really lacking substitute players in defence, and on key positions in midfield. This makes us vulnerable, but doesn't merit the results we have seen and our position in the table. Take Ivan for example; I mean, he hasn't looked good, but please remember the rock this guy has been for us. When Theo Walcott et al. comes storming down the flank on Saturday, I would still have Ivan/Azi there to take care of it. I second the complaints here that Mourinho didn't get the chance (didn't take it?) to start this season with a rewamp of the defence. But it is what it is and having failed that, I would still say that Ivan, Azi, Terry and Cahill are a pretty solid back four that should be able shut up shop. Finally, I agree on the contribution of Oscar too; he is key. 

 

Looking ahead, we face a tricky one against the Gunners on Saturday. They have been unspectacular but have gotten the results, and did a number on us in the Charity Shield. They will come at us with every right to think they can do maximum damage to us. I can't really say that I am confident we will win (I am not!), but I can tell you the Bridge will be rocking, and the lads will be running their socks off.

 

Overall, we're down but far from out! Mourinho actually expressed it perfectly yesterday ... everybody loves to see Chelsea suffer, and now is the time to support the team, and I am sure the players and the manager will show the world that you don't laugh at Chelsea, and that we still have to ability to tear our opponents apart. I really hope we do that mid-week, and take absolutely no prisoners whatsoever! Right now, the only thing the manager, players and fans want is to get to the next match, so let's go get them. 

He built a fantastic Porto side that went on to be the best in Europe before coming here.

He clearly wanted a few additions that he didn't get and I think now we are seeing how huge those misses were especially Pogba for midfield.

He has to work with what he has and he really needs to start picking players on merit rather than his usual favourites who are letting us down every other week now! His loyalty to his players is much admired but at times like this it's a big negative and you wonder why we spend over £20 million on a left back when he refuses to drop the worst player in the league (form wise).

It's all been said in here already why it's all gone wrong...poor pre season planning, poor recruitment during summer and lack of rotation. We need to stick together and see this through because there's no manager out there better equipped for Chelsea than Jose, we seen that last season!

He built a fantastic Porto side that went on to be the best in Europe before coming here.

He clearly wanted a few additions that he didn't get and I think now we are seeing how huge those misses were especially Pogba for midfield.

He has to work with what he has and he really needs to start picking players on merit rather than his usual favourites who are letting us down every other week now! His loyalty to his players is much admired but at times like this it's a big negative and you wonder why we spend over £20 million on a left back when he refuses to drop the worst player in the league (form wise).

It's all been said in here already why it's all gone wrong...poor pre season planning, poor recruitment during summer and lack of rotation. We need to stick together and see this through because there's no manager out there better equipped for Chelsea than Jose, we seen that last season!

We might even say this is the biggest challenge in Mourinho's career yet. I don't think anything has changed about the expectations by the board, it's just become a lot harder to achieve it, being 11 points behind a superior squad.

 

Imagine Wenger beats Mourinho and - god forbid - gets him fired. That would be the sweetest revenge for a specialist in failure. Let's hope I am just being paranoid.

The biggest problem is Cesc Fabergas, he's been pants for ages now, ever since spuds away. I appreciate what he did for the first half of last season, but we need to recognise that he has been poor for months now, he plays in such a position you can't hide without it affecting our performances.

 

I think Fabregas' form has been that poor that it's affected other players with an inflated workload, especially Matic, and to some degree Ivanovic and Hazard. It may seem harsh to dump so much of the blame on Cesc' sholuders, but it only takes one bad apple as the saying goes.

 

RLC must come into the midfield, Ramires, Mikel and Fabregas have all played alongside Matic, we all know they are not good enough, but we won't know if RLC is good enough or not unless we throw caution to the wind and give him a guaranteed start in the team.

 

What have we got to lose ?

Could we use WIllian beside Matic? He's got the energy for it but Jose has never tried him there.

 

CAPTION: JT "It's a game called football. Remember?"