4 minutes ago, Van Butsen said:

Who's to say they're not good enough?  You think our signings have been poor in the Roman era?  I think we've been one of the better team.

We sign a player like Salah and everyone rants and raves that he isn't good enough and look what he does.  I think each player we've signed has enough potential/proven history to suggest the investment is worthwhile, and then it's up to the play themselves, the manager and the club to get the best out of him. 

A week ago we were second in the table!  Second in a season where city are doing what they are doing!! Also still in every competition.  The players who are supposedly not good enough are doing alright by me and considering their form, can only get better.  All positives.

Bakayoko - 40m
Drinkwater - 35m
Zappacosta - 25m

That's about 100m of players right there which are not what we needed. But every time we have a title winning season, the next year the board refuses to push on and take us to the next level to try and keep us at the top. It's Sidwell, Pizarro and Ben Haim all over again, except this time we've also wasted 100m in the process.

If they don't want to spend the money, fine, but they're in a midway point of not paying the big money for individual players because it's too much, but still spending lots by buying numerous poor players instead. If we sign Andy Carroll it will just be the cherry on the icing.

Edited January 16, 20188 yr by Zeta

1 minute ago, Zeta said:

Bakayoko - 40m
Drinkwater - 35m
Zappacosta - 25m

That's about 100m of players right there which are not what we needed. But every time we have a title winning season, the next year the board refuses to push on and take us to the next level to try and keep us at the top. It's Sidwell, Pizarro and Ben Haim all over again, except this time we've also wasted 100m in the process.

We are still in the hunt for 3 trophies and second in the table.  We were screaming out for midfield reinforcements last year, all of sudden we don't need them?  One has a massive future, fits the mold of the athletic/robust type sort after in this league and the other one has done it before.  You've jumped the gun on the back of a bad run.

1 minute ago, Van Butsen said:

We are still in the hunt for 3 trophies and second in the table.  We were screaming out for midfield reinforcements last year, all of sudden we don't need them?  One has a massive future, fits the mold of the athletic/robust type sort after in this league and the other one has done it before.  You've jumped the gun on the back of a bad run.

Bakayoko could have a massive future, and I still think he'll come good, but at the moment he's the worst of our summer signings by a fair margin. Boy needs a lot of work on his football skills, he's athletic as hell but his head is in the sand defensively, and in and around the box

 

3 minutes ago, Van Butsen said:

We are still in the hunt for 3 trophies and second in the table.  We were screaming out for midfield reinforcements last year, all of sudden we don't need them?  One has a massive future, fits the mold of the athletic/robust type sort after in this league and the other one has done it before.  You've jumped the gun on the back of a bad run.

Why does he have a massive future? Who's declared that? Just because he's young doesn't mean he is going to be miles better in a few years. Right now not only can he not do the technical basics like passing, shooting or tackling, but he looks to have no footballing brain whatsoever. What have you seen, other than his physique that leads you to believe he has a massive future?

Drinkwater "has done it before". He had one season at Leciester where everybody played out of their skins. Other than that, he's an average player. Were City in for him? Utd? Liverpool? Spurs? Arsenal? Anyone? No. I'm sure he's a nice person and he works hard, but for anyone who wants to see Chelsea reach the top, to challenge the likes of Real, Bayern, Barcelona on a regular basis...is Danny Drinkwater a player who is going to help us do that?

Just now, Zeta said:

Why does he have a massive future? Who's declared that? Just because he's young doesn't mean he is going to be miles better in a few years. Right now not only can he not do the technical basics like passing, shooting or tackling, but he looks to have no footballing brain whatsoever. What have you seen, other than his physique that leads you to believe he has a massive future?

Drinkwater "has done it before". He had one season at Leciester where everybody played out of their skins. Other than that, he's an average player. Were City in for him? Utd? Liverpool? Spurs? Arsenal? Anyone? No. I'm sure he's a nice person and he works hard, but for anyone who wants to see Chelsea reach the top, to challenge the likes of Real, Bayern, Barcelona on a regular basis...is Danny Drinkwater a player who is going to help us do that?

Because he's got all the attributes to do it AND already has done it.  He was a massive cog in what was a huge upset (them winning the title) but granted didn't do it alone.  He performed as well as any of that team that gets ranted and raved about and many others wanted to sign him!  I'm not defending his performances this season, he's been well below what he produced last season, but I'm saying the signing without knowing how he will fair the following season is perfectly justifiable.

I'm sorry Drinkwater isn't your cup of tea (or water) but he's actually played really well for us.  I didn't expect him to take over a role in the side and with that in mind, a good solid signing. Were we in for Fabian Delph?  Are we going to try and woo Phil Jones away from United?  I bet if the Ox came here you'd probably complain but he went to Liverpool.. reckon they are saying the same thing as you?  Every team has these players.

Have we completed our latest big money signing yet?

AC signing for AC.  Maybe the board fancied the ring to it ha.

1 minute ago, Van Butsen said:

Because he's got all the attributes to do it AND already has done it.  He was a massive cog in what was a huge upset (them winning the title) but granted didn't do it alone.  He performed as well as any of that team that gets ranted and raved about and many others wanted to sign him!  I'm not defending his performances this season, he's been well below what he produced last season, but I'm saying the signing without knowing how he will fair the following season is perfectly justifiable.

I'm sorry Drinkwater isn't your cup of tea (or water) but he's actually played really well for us.  I didn't expect him to take over a role in the side and with that in mind, a good solid signing. Were we in for Fabian Delph?  Are we going to try and woo Phil Jones away from United?  I bet if the Ox came here you'd probably complain but he went to Liverpool.. reckon they are saying the same thing as you?  Every team has these players.

It is fine to have squad players, but it helps if you have a good first time first. Conte clearly wanted better quality players, but this is what he got.

1 minute ago, Zeta said:

It is fine to have squad players, but it helps if you have a good first time first. Conte clearly wanted better quality players, but this is what he got.

I don't see how that's clear in anyway and I think it only makes sense because Baka's been poor.  If he played as well as he had last season I don't think you'd be saying it. 

Conte wanted more signings yes, but I don't get impression Baka was the wrong one.

13 minutes ago, Zeta said:

Why does he have a massive future? Who's declared that? Just because he's young doesn't mean he is going to be miles better in a few years. Right now not only can he not do the technical basics like passing, shooting or tackling, but he looks to have no footballing brain whatsoever. What have you seen, other than his physique that leads you to believe he has a massive future?

Drinkwater "has done it before". He had one season at Leciester where everybody played out of their skins. Other than that, he's an average player. Were City in for him? Utd? Liverpool? Spurs? Arsenal? Anyone? No. I'm sure he's a nice person and he works hard, but for anyone who wants to see Chelsea reach the top, to challenge the likes of Real, Bayern, Barcelona on a regular basis...is Danny Drinkwater a player who is going to help us do that?

Also why can't Loftus-Cheek or Van Ginkel have massive futures at Chelsea and actually be given the chance. Baka has been a constant starter for Chelsea and a 40m buy, it would take a miracle for Rubens or Van Ginkel to be given that sort of chance and maybe they would be doing better?

Edited January 16, 20188 yr by Ernie_blue

4 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Also why can't Loftus-Cheek or Van Ginkel have massive futures at Chelsea and actually be given the chance. Baka has been a constant starter for Chelsea and a 40m buy, it would take a miracle for Rubens or Van Ginkel to be given that sort of chance and maybe they would be doing better?

Good point re MVG though there was a concern over his knee injury. Think this would be the season to bring him back for a chance to re-consider the loan or whether he is worthy of a first team spot. 

6 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

Good point re MVG though there was a concern over his knee injury. Think this would be the season to bring him back for a chance to re-consider the loan or whether he is worthy of a first team spot. 

I know the Holland league isn't great but it's not far behind the French league. His captain and scored 10 goals in the league, I haven't actually seen him play though. Surely he could do no worse than Baka, no joke but it's like playing 10 men when his on the field. 

Drinkwater has been anything but really good for us, what on earth? He's essentially a more experienced Tom Cleverley and was far behind the reason for Leicester's title success. Much of that was because of Vardy/ Mahrez Schmeichl and Kante. When he was playing against Arsenal he wasn't able to keep up with the pace at all and the game just passed him by. Bakayoko has been really poor but he has a natural raw athleticism that gives him the edge over Drinkwater in ability. That said, he was easily the least important player for Monaco last season and much of the midfield was run by Fabinho. You could even argue that their CBs were more important than him. 

Zappacosta? The fact that Torino/Juventus fans over on other forums said we overpaid for 25m says it all. Panic buy at end because we couldn't secure somebody else. Why we didn't go for Conti is a bit baffling because he was the exact same price and said that it's hard to not pay attention from big clubs.  Granted he's injured now but that's an unfortunate training error not because he was injury prone. 

Regardless if Bakayoko was intended to play with Matic, if Matic didn't really find the idea  appealing then maybe we should've looked at somebody older and with a  skillset that's obvious -- not somebody who may or may not come good. 

 

Morata to be honest I'm a bit surprised. I didn't think his finishing would be this poor but I don't think it's bad recruitment -- him, Lukaku or Auba were the most obvious 

Edited January 16, 20188 yr by MANoWAR

On 15/01/2018 at 10:37, Sindre said:

Didn't want Matic sold - Sold to our main rival.
Wanted Alex Sandro, Kyle Walker, Danilo, Mendy - Got Zappacosta and no LWB
Wanted Llorente - Didn't get any backup striker
Wanted Oxlade Chamberlain - Lost him to Liverpool
Wanted Lukaku - Got Morata
Wanted quality central midfielders - Didn't get one quality player.
Wanted Alexis Sanchez - Lost him to Mourinho and United.

Yeah right was he backed. I'm surprised he's still here to be honest.

He also wanted Vidal but got Barkley.

Not to add more fuel to the fire or anything. 

6 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

I hate to sound like an Arsenal fan but you really have to look at Net spend here. 

 

Yes we spent £200m (£195.12m) but we are only really signing to replace the players that we are selling. Look at City and Utd and they are signing to directly strengthen their entire squad. 

So United and City are just adding players? They would eventually have a bloated squad if they did. In reality the only player sold that Conte wanted to keep was Matic, the rest of the cash came from a player he wanted rid of himself and loan army/squad players. We directly strengthened at CB and should have at CM but we squandered the money. 

37 minutes ago, MANoWAR said:

Drinkwater has been anything but really good for us, what on earth? He's essentially a more experienced Tom Cleverley and was far behind the reason for Leicester's title success. Much of that was because of Vardy/ Mahrez Schmeichl and Kante. When he was playing against Arsenal he wasn't able to keep up with the pace at all and the game just passed him by. Bakayoko has been really poor but he has a natural raw athleticism that gives him the edge over Drinkwater in ability. That said, he was easily the least important player for Monaco last season and much of the midfield was run by Fabinho. You could even argue that their CBs were more important than him. 

Zappacosta? The fact that Torino/Juventus fans over on other forums said we overpaid for 25m says it all. Panic buy at end because we couldn't secure somebody else. Why we didn't go for Conti is a bit baffling because he was the exact same price and said that it's hard to not pay attention from big clubs.  Granted he's injured now but that's an unfortunate training error not because he was injury prone. 

Regardless if Bakayoko was intended to play with Matic, if Matic didn't really find the idea  appealing then maybe we should've looked at somebody older and with a  skillset that's obvious -- not somebody who may or may not come good. 

 

Morata to be honest I'm a bit surprised. I didn't think his finishing would be this poor but I don't think it's bad recruitment -- him, Lukaku or Auba were the most obvious 

How on earth can you bash Drinkwater's performance against Arsenal while praising Bakayoko?

Drinkwater has had one bad game this season and that was the Arsenal game, the same game when Bakayoko was having an absolute mare. A more experienced Tom Cleverly? He was superb next to Kante in that title-winning season, you clearly didn't watch many Leicester games that season. I don't think he's worth 40 million and I wasn't fussed on the signing at all but he has surprised me. He was very good in the Liverpool away match, the same match Bakayoko again had a nightmare in.

What natural athleticism is this by the way? The same athleticism that he's using to hide from the ball for 90 minutes? I wish he was athletic in marking players and keeping up with them but he can't even seem to do that at the moment. 

Edited January 16, 20188 yr by Slojo

The midfield is a balance and neither Drinkwater or Baka have had a pre-season. 

Shocking to see the bashing Danny Drinkwater is getting here. I think he had one poor performance against Arsenal alongside the rest of the team but has largely been effective in midfield when he has played this year.

Our poorest performances of the year Drinkwater hasn't played in (West Ham, Palace, Roma, Leicester this weekend, Burnley). I think he deserves a run in the team ahead of Bakayoko who no doubt is struggling to settle and has confidence issues.

Shocking to see him getting bashed on here basically because he isn't an overseas household name.

 

I think Matic wanted out as he was being criticised too much by media and fans.

Baka for me should be the furthest forward MF defending from the front yet think Kante is normally there,  so Baka is at a loss in terms of what he should be doing.

Kante when he was brought in took a while to settle as we played him differently from Leicester, in playing him further up the pitch.

This is what I meant earlier about balance and needing a pre-season.

 

8 minutes ago, Nickcook26 said:

Shocking to see the bashing Danny Drinkwater is getting here. I think he had one poor performance against Arsenal alongside the rest of the team but has largely been effective in midfield when he has played this year.

Our poorest performances of the year Drinkwater hasn't played in (West Ham, Palace, Roma, Leicester this weekend, Burnley). I think he deserves a run in the team ahead of Bakayoko who no doubt is struggling to settle and has confidence issues.

Shocking to see him getting bashed on here basically because he isn't an overseas household name.

 

He's exceeded expectations and he's performed consistently, he's a good squad player forget the price tag. 

But you can't make a point of how Drinkwater is bad because of the Arsenal game while simultaneously praise Bakayoko, who was MUCH worse in that very game. 

On 1/15/2018 at 13:34, Snedger said:

I suppose they're the two likely explanations. However, I'm sure if we offered them 50 million for him they'd surely accept if the sum City and United are reportedly offering is about 20ish million. And in my opinion he'd be worth 50 million even in this weird contract running out situation - because if there is something we need desperately, it's a game changer; and he is one. Whether or not the player would sign for us is a different matter.

 

It's all bollox. Of course, they would accept our offer if it was more attractive than Mancs', especially if Sanchez insisted on moving to CFC. What other choice would they have? People tend to overestimate this rivalry thing. It's a business decision, and ultimately it makes no difference to Arsenal where Sanchez ends up because he's leaving anyway, the only thing that matters at this point is how much they can squeeze out of the buying club because this is their last chance to profit from inevitably losing their best player.

Edited January 16, 20188 yr by abramovich

1 hour ago, Slojo said:

How on earth can you bash Drinkwater's performance against Arsenal while praising Bakayoko?

There's nothing in my comment that suggests a strong appraisal of Bakayoko's performance; I'm not sure how you can avoid me saying he's been really poor and that he was Monaco's least important player. Instead, my comment referred to both Drinkwater and Bakayoko being poor but Bakayoko being more athletic than he is which gives him the edge as a player for us, which isn't really controversial. The game against Arsenal was just an example and no, I disagree that Bakayoko was far worse -- the most obvious for me was Drinkwater 

Quote

Drinkwater has had one bad game this season and that was the Arsenal game, the same game when Bakayoko was having an absolute mare. A more experienced Tom Cleverly? He was superb next to Kante in that title-winning season, you clearly didn't watch many Leicester games that season. I don't think he's worth 40 million and I wasn't fussed on the signing at all but he has surprised me. He was very good in the Liverpool away match, the same match Bakayoko again had a nightmare in.

I recommend you go on FoxesTalk or Reddit and ask or research for yourself on the importance of the players, because I'm not wasting my time with somebody who isn't really aware of the roles played and dishes out platitudes like 'You clearly didn't watch X team'. Nobody suggested that he didn't do an good or satisfactory job with Kanté but you take Drinkwater and put in Andy King and Leicester would've still shown dominance over many teams like they did then -- take Mahrez and replace him with somebody else and Vardy suddenly stops scoring so many goals. Take Vardy out and put Okazaki and Mahrez's passes go wayward or not  followed through by the forward .  Take Kanté out and replace him with Amartey and the midfield suddenly doesn't keep possession as well as they do, they get  dominated in the middle and they don't form as many intricate passes as they would be able to with Kante's interception and readability

Furthermore, your rebuke of the Cleverley comparison by mentioning his performances in that particular season is a total misfire. Let's not forget the fact that, regardless of his injury, he was very lethargic in his last season and was constantly just hoofing it up to his team and didn't do the same job as he could've done the previous season, even with somebody like N'didi who's shown some brilliance albeit inconsistent this season *(see below for an expansion on this). 

For the record, I was in Leicester a fair few times in 2016 so I caught a fair few  games on the way!

Quote

What natural athleticism is this by the way? The same athleticism that he's using to hide from the ball for 90 minutes? I wish he was athletic in marking players and keeping up with them but he can't even seem to do that at the moment.

 

Marking players doesn't just come from athleticism, it comes from your technical ability in reading the game and anticipating what the opponent's next move would be, which Bakayoko has none of. The natural athleticism refers to him being able to be physical or sturdy when shielding the ball or holding onto the ball in midfield battles or having good fitness, something that was shown in a few glimpses in Monaco but wasn't really exemplified because of how good Fabinho was at doing his job, nor was it necessary.

*(This relates to both the second and third quotes) . Bakayoko was never bad at Monaco but as I repeat was never the most important player, Drinkwater might've been important in Leicester's season but was far less important than the other players mentioned and played SIGNIFICANTLY  (forget the caps.)  less effectual this season and last for Leicester, whilst Kante Vardy and Mahrez weren't for their teams. Why? Well because they're much better than Drinkwater is, and played far more of a role in their win than he did. Drinkwater has no fill in qualities that Chelsea can use other than his passing (which wasn't really up to standard this season and  isn't better than Fabregas so doesn't warrant him starting). Bakayoko has been poor but he's basically a baby compared to the rest of our squad and has qualities that can be worked on. He's got pace, can dribble with the ball and is very strong. His problem is that he holds onto the ball for too long (which you might have implied?) and because of that is dispossessed. He's also got poor lateral movement so you can play around him. However, if you get him going forward and improve his passing (like Conte has shown with some of his players) then he would be very  useful. 

So to conclude, neither Bakayoko or Danny  have high ability, both haven't performed to a top standard for a  club like  Chelsea but Bakayoko's physical prowess makes him more useful for Chelsea than Drinkwater which is why Conte bought Drinkwater to be a squad player, and Bakayoko to replace Nemanja. The intention is clear and it's obvious Bakayoko has more room for improvement than Drinkwater does

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 20188 yr by MANoWAR

32 minutes ago, MANoWAR said:

There's nothing in my comment that suggests a strong appraisal of Bakayoko's performance; I'm not sure how you can avoid me saying he's been really poor and that he was Monaco's least important player. Instead, my comment referred to both Drinkwater and Bakayoko being poor but Bakayoko being more athletic than he is which gives him the edge as a player for us, which isn't really controversial. The game against Arsenal was just an example and no, I disagree that Bakayoko was far worse -- the most obvious for me was Drinkwater 

I recommend you go on FoxesTalk or Reddit and ask or research for yourself on the importance of the players, because I'm not wasting my time with somebody who isn't really aware of the roles played and dishes out platitudes like 'You clearly didn't watch X team'. Nobody suggested that he didn't do an good or satisfactory job with Kanté but you take Drinkwater and put in Andy King and Leicester would've still shown dominance over many teams like they did then -- take Mahrez and replace him with somebody else and Vardy suddenly stops scoring so many goals. Take Vardy out and put Okazaki and Mahrez's passes go wayward or not  followed through by the forward .  Take Kanté out and replace him with Amartey and the midfield suddenly doesn't keep possession as well as they do, they get  dominated in the middle and they don't form as many intricate passes as they would be able to with Kante's interception and readability

Furthermore, your rebuke of the Cleverley comparison by mentioning his performances in that particular season is a total misfire. Let's not forget the fact that, regardless of his injury, he was very lethargic this season and was constantly just hoofing it up to his team and didn't do the same job as he could've done last season, even with somebody like N'didi who's shown some brilliance albeit inconsistent this season *(see below for an expansion on this). 

For the record, I was in Leicester a fair few times in 2016 so I caught a fair few  games on the way!

 

Marking players doesn't just come from athleticism, it comes from your technical ability in reading the game and anticipating what the opponent's next move would be, which Bakayoko has none of. The natural athleticism refers to him being able to be physical or sturdy when shielding the ball or holding onto the ball in midfield battles or having good fitness, something that was shown in a few glimpses in Monaco but wasn't really exemplified because of how good Fabinho was at doing his job, nor was it necessary.

*(This relates to both the second and third quotes) . Bakayoko was never bad at Monaco but as I repeat was never the most important player, Drinkwater might've been important in Leicester's season but was far less important than the other players mentioned and played SIGNIFICANTLY  (forget the caps.)  less effectual this season and last for Leicester, whilst Kante Vardy and Mahrez weren't for their teams. Why? Well because they're much better than Drinkwater is, and played far more of a role in their win than he did. Drinkwater has no fill in qualities that Chelsea can use other than his passing (which wasn't really up to standard this season and  isn't better than Fabregas so doesn't warrant him starting). Bakayoko has been poor but he's basically a baby compared to the rest of our squad and has qualities that can be worked on. He's got pace, can dribble with the ball and is very strong. His problem is that he holds onto the ball for too long (which you might have implied?) and because of that is dispossessed. He's also got poor lateral movement so you can play around him. However, if you get him going forward and improve his passing (like Conte has shown with some of his players) then he would be very  useful. 

So to conclude, neither Bakayoko or Danny  have high ability, both haven't performed to a top standard for a  club like  Chelsea but Bakayoko's physical prowess makes him more useful for Chelsea than Drinkwater which is why Conte bought Drinkwater to be a squad player, and Bakayoko to replace Nemanja. The intention is clear and it's obvious Bakayoko has more room for improvement than Drinkwater does

 

 

 

What I don't understand is how you can criticise Drinkwater on one bad game, but then go on to praise Bakayoko who has put in a much worse display since arriving here. 

Also, I find your logic towards Drinkwater contradicting. You're practically claiming Drinkwater had no essential role on the Leicester team whatsoever, pretty much just a passenger, how is that not the same for Bakayoko? Who was probably one of Monaco's worst performers out of the whole bunch? Not that it's a big insult given how good the Monaco team was, but was Bakayoko not a passenger as well by your standards? Because that's what you're practically claiming Drinkwater was in the Leicester team. 

Also you're dismissing my claim as a platitude while also giving baseless arguments such as "He hoofed the ball up" 

He had 3 goals and 8 assists that season with a near 80% pass completion, that's good for a supporting midfielder, and he quite clearly performed that season. Every Leicester player was superb that season, and I don't think I've seen Cleverly anywhere near that level of consistency, the comparison is pretty insulting. 

Athleticism definitely factors into marking players when you're a midfielder, you're clutching straws in an attempt to win some baseless point, and it was more of a sarcastic punt at the athleticism comment. I am well aware Bakayoko had a physical presence in that Monaco side, they were the only positives I saw from him last season when I watched him which is why I didn't want the signing to begin with. But where is that physical presence in the Chelsea side? He's barely running back or covering, he's rarely pressing. Like someone mentioned in the thread, when you watch him next to Kante it's just embarrassing, Kante will work his socks off, Bakayoko will jog next to him. 

You definitely aren't basing his "physical prowess" from his time here at Chelsea, because we haven't seen that here. We don't even know if he can keep up to pace with the level of football in this league, Drinkwater, however, can and he's a proven PL winner like it or not. Even despite Bakayoko's age I think judging by the performances Drinkwater has more of a future here than Bakayoko does just on the merit of being useful alone, I'm not saying Bakayoko doesn't deserve another season, but he definitely needs to prove himself and he's got a VERY long way to go, much more than Drinkwater who's only had one bad game since playing here, he's been quite good other than that and scored a belter against Stoke. 

Edited January 16, 20188 yr by Slojo

 

4 hours ago, Slojo said:

Quote

What I don't understand is how you can criticise Drinkwater on one bad game, but then go on to praise Bakayoko who has put in a much worse display since arriving here.

Also, I find your logic towards Drinkwater contradicting. You're practically claiming Drinkwater had no significant on the Leicester team and he was a passenger, how is that no the same for Bakayoko? Who was probably one of Monaco's worst performers out of the whole bunch?

Preface by saying if I cannot see anything henceforth that is not repeated or not worth replying to, then I won't reply. 

Let's start: You can pick out any game from Drinkwater and every criticism detailed in the reply above applies about him not having any sufficient qualities to make him good enough for the team. The Arsenal game was the example that showed that the his limitations the most, and I pointed out that it was just that, an example where both players were bad but Drinkwater was  worse. I have not actually praised his performances instead of continually pointing out that Bakayoko has been poor for us but instead has qualities that can be worked upon based on what Conte has shown with players like Moses and even players like Kante (improving passing). Maybe it wasn't clear: Bakayoko was the least important player but it's obvious he did show quality and was a player for the future designed to learn from Matic rather than just being shown to replace him straight away: the argument initially was replying to Van B that Drinkwater was really good for us (which I disagreed with) and that Bakayoko has been just as poor, but at least has scope for improvement in his qualities. So this point really should be done that somehow I'm praising Bakayoko. It is clear, as mentioned, what Conte's intentions were, and that was what was argued 

Secondly, you should re-read what was pointed out: there was no implication of him being a passenger and not being good for the team, but instead to the rebuttal to his general abilities as a player through the Cleverley comparison that what he showed last year that his performances could be substituted by another player in King and Leicester would have still performed exceptionally, but replace any of the GK/Mahrez/Vardy/Kante and the differences would be far more obvious. I dismiss your claim as a platitude because you did very little to support your point and gave a substandard counter of 'you didn't watch this guys game'. I responded appropriately with a more detailed explanation on the importance of the  players for Leicester's season. I can say that Drinkwater was Leicester's 5th most important player but 5th out of a team of 11 players and when then gap between him and the above is significant, then it's not really worth pointing out is it? Bakayoko was the 9th most important player but all the players before him were significantly better than what that Leicester side have.  All you've done is now shown me a clip: 

Quote

So you're dismissing my claim as a platitude while also giving baseless arguments such as "He hoofed the ball up" 

He had 3 goals and 8 assists that season with a near 80% pass completion, that's good for a supporting midfielder, and he quite clearly performed that season. Every Leicester player was superb that season, and I don't think I've seen Cleverly anywhere near that level of consistency, the comparison is pretty insulting. 

which to me doesn't really suggest any suitable counter point other than showing a highlights video which can be done to show anything about a player, or showing stats which can be used to show that Lovren was a better CB than Terry a few seasons ago or that Herrera is a better midfielder than Kante. My hoofball comment is simply a microcosm of what his performances have become; his best attribute was his passing but since then was not repeated last season and is more like aimlessly passing it around the pitch and not knowing what he should be doing. The comment was made in relation to him being an average player like Cleverley by pointing out his lack of consistency elsewhere. I can just as well say that Cleverley was at least good enough to play under an Alex Ferguson United for 3 seasons, but his overall ability it just more suited to a lower tabe team like Watford or Everton. If we were to ask people to compare, then I can't really envisage people saying that Danny is a lot better. Both have had their good moments, perhaps Drinkwater more noticeably, but both average overall with limited abilities. 

For example, see here: https://www.foxestalk.co.uk/topic/110666-the-future-is-bright/?tab=comments#comment-4192418 https://www.foxestalk.co.uk/topic/108748-daniel-amartey/?page=54&tab=comments#comment-4574115 for somebody suggesting a similar thing. Yes, he was important in promotion and winning the league, but other than that he's nothing but average. Like you say, every player played their part last season, including Wes Morgan or Huth, but that doesn't reflect their natural ability or that they revert to normally performances after, which is what has been shown during his time at  Chelsea.

In fairness, looking at the previous season much of the team was sh*t (even Mahrez) but Mahrez showed his class once Ranieri was sacked as did some others, but Drinkwater was probably the most regressed throughout. 

 

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Athleticism definitely factors into marking players when you're a midfielder, you're clutching straws in an attempt to win some baseless point, and it was more of a sarcastic punt at the athleticism comment. I am well aware Bakayoko had a physical presence in that Monaco side, they were the only positives I saw from him last season when I watched him which is why I didn't want the signing to begin with. But where is that physical presence in the Chelsea side? He's barely running back or covering, he's rarely pressing. Like someone mentioned in the thread, when you watch him next to Kante it's just embarrassing, Kante will work his socks off, Bakayoko will jog next to him. 

You suggest I'm clutching at straws but all you've said  there is 'no no athleticism does factor in', when I said 'athleticism doesn't just come into factor' (hence there's no attack for that comment) but that technical feats are important, so nothing I've said was wrong.  You suggest a sarcastic punt at the athleticism comment which might be the case but it doesn't appear to be immediately obvious (nor reasonable), nor does it warrant a suggestion of 'aimlessly trying to win a point', more like an attempt to save face from your side. I would argue that Puyol's technical ability or Thiago Silva helped them far more out at 'keeping up with players'  and intercepting passes than their athleticism would have. Obviously, looking at midfielders like Busquets and Martinez, they have both, and hence are have been some of the best in their position, but even then they're more reliant on their technical ability than physicality. 

Yes, and Drinkwater looked poor without Kante near him as well last season. Cleverley looked sh*t without Carrick near him. So it seems like there's not really any kind of contradiction with what has been said. All players aren't the best but need world class players like Kante to help them out. 

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You definitely aren't basing his "physical prowess" from his time here at Chelsea, because we haven't seen that here. We don't even know if he can keep up to pace with the level of football in this league, Drinkwater, however, can and he's a proven PL winner like it or not. Even despite Bakayoko's age I think judging by the performances Drinkwater has more of a future here than Bakayoko does just on the merit of being useful alone, I'm not saying Bakayoko doesn't deserve another season, but he definitely needs to prove himself and he's got a VERY long way to go, much more than Drinkwater who's only had one bad game since playing here, he's been quite good other than that and scored a belter against Stoke. 

Actually we have, against the best teams in the league of Spurs and Manchester United. His inability to mark players isn't down to a lack of speed  (maybe lateral quickness and being mentally quick, Kante is probably the quickest in our team laterally, probably quicker than Hazard in that sense) but if you let Baka just run down a line vertically he's pretty fast. Similar to Yaya Toure/Pogba I'd say in that once he gets going he's hard to stop, just lacks the end product to make it useful unlike what Toure had. That's what Baka needs to do 

Drinkwater like every other player on the Leicester team played out of their minds that season; only Mahrez/Kante/Vardy/Kasper have been shown to retain that, so that's regardless of him being a PL winner when many other performances have been average. This also explains why those players were all linked with bigger clubs whereas Drinkwater never was. 

And yes he's got a fair bit to go, no disagreement there. If Bakayoko doesn't work out, then that more likely means we see a replacement for him rather than Drinkwater coming in, because that's all he'll ever amount to. And yes, if we find out Bakayoko doesn't improve than Danny would have shown to be more useful - but how much of that we can attribute to Bakayoko not having a proper pre season (more beneficial for him than Danny) or having Matic help him out (like Conte wanted) we won't actually know. For example, how much can we attribute our poor season to Mourinho when he left the club compared to having little pre-season? It depends on how Barkley and RLC fits in as well, and I envisage he'd be slightly behind Bakayoko (maybe the same level) but ahead of Danny. At this point, we're going to end up with too many bit part players and not enough quality, which probably leaves Drinkwater to the less important part of Chelsea 

 

Edited January 16, 20188 yr by MANoWAR

Let me also end with the following: I don't think either Drinkwater or Bakayoko have enough to warrant starts for Chelsea, and neither of them based on what we see can elevate us to the top or maintain our top of the league. However, with Bakayoko, we can at least hold some hope that there's a scope for improvement, because he's still very young whereas Drinkwater is almost 28. Drinkwater has spent the entirety of his career in the English leagues whereas Bakayoko has only just moved. And  hence I would rather continually play Bakayoko in the  hope that he does improve and show us the qualities that he showed when he bossed Manchester City, rather than  Drinkwater where he had a good season along with every other play in some freak season when otherwise we know he is a limited footballer with little scope for improvement.  This also makes sense in the context that if Conte wants to assimilate Bakayoko it makes more sense to play him regularly than Drinkwater who was bought for depth. 

This all depends on how well Barkley does though. Hopefully he does enough to drive them both out 

Edited January 17, 20188 yr by MANoWAR

2017: "OMFG!! We have such a thin squad!! How could the idiot board allow us to be this short on players?!?!"

2018: "OMFG!! We've gone and bought squad players instead of all world class starters!! How can the idiot board have ruined the team like this!?!?"

 

I never thought I'd see the day when Chelsea fans were slagging off our own players after 5 minutes at the club. Bakayoko has had a mare but writing him off already is ridiculous, and anyone slating Drinkwater needs to have a word with themselves. Zappacosta might not be the best talent in the world, but he runs his arse off and gives it everything he's got. Not every player we buy is going to be an incarnation of Messi but if they wear the shirt and work hard they deserve our support.