18 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

Under Conte we had Costa and teams had to come on to us this created the gaps for us to exploit.

Now we try to pass them to death further up the pitch and it's ponderous partly I think as Enigma says the style is too big a jump with these players in one season.

So effectively what you're saying is we played to the strengths of the players we had...

6 minutes ago, enigma said:

We have definitely improved at playing ourselves out of trouble under the press of the opposition. Under Conte we would often hoof it up the field when under pressure, whereas now we are very composed at playing out.

I think we play ourselves into trouble just as much as we play ourselves out of it. On numerous occasions almost every game the opposition turn over possession in our half because of our insistence on playing out from the back. 

Nothing wrong with clearing your lines sometimes, opposition can't score if the ball isn't near your goal. 

10 minutes ago, enigma said:

The problem I think we have at the moment is the players aren't pressing collectively enough; the movement off the ball is subpar; and we aren't playing the ball quick enough.

Sarri can teach this, but the players have to be carrying it out on the pitch. If it comes off it will be very effective, but when it doesn't then we look clueless, lime we have been. 

Would you not expect after going on for eight months for the manager to be successfully implementing some facet of their game plan? 

Why is the movement off the ball subpar?

Are we realistically saying that a group of successful footballers are willfully not carrying out the managers instructions? 

17 minutes ago, enigma said:

It's impossible to single out players who have improved because the system is nowhere near where it should be. If the team were playing like a well oiled machine then it would be easier to identify certain players who have improved, but so far the team aren't playing near full potential. 

But we aren't playing like a well oiled machine.

The manager is the one who oils the machine. 

Honest question, because you're clearly a very staunch supporter of Sarri. At what point would you expect any club to acknowledge a managerial appointment isn't working and the manager isn't achieving his objectives? What would it take for you to look at Chelsea's performances and results and say "this isn't good enough, we need to change something"? 

1 minute ago, ForeverCarefree said:

So effectively what you're saying is we played to the strengths of the players we had...

Funnily enough that was Conte's justification for changing to the back five (3Cbs) a better fit for our players. 

19 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

But even a team that plays on the counter attack has to be good at attacking to win a game. 

Right now, as an "attacking" team we are struggling to score goals. 

This calendar year we have played 13 games and in 6 of those we have failed to score any goals. 

We've scored a total of 16 goals in those 13 games with 10 of those being scored against Huddersfield, Sheffield Wednesday and Nottingham Forrest.  

If Sarri is an attacking manager surely you would expect the attacking side of our game to be one of the first things you see an improvement in? Truthfully I can't think of a single thing that we do better under Sarri than we did under Conte, if anything I think we've gone backwards. 

So essentially you would like Sarri to turn a midfield of Kovacic, Jorginho, Kante, into goalscoring/goalcreating machines? Turn Willian into someone who can score more than 4 goals a season on average. Turn back the clock on Pedro. Make Alonso productive in the final third while still having the recovery pace and stamina to maintain our defensive solidity.

Sarri vs Conte (last season) by the numbers (and bear in mind the kind of football we played under Conte, and the system):

Sarri - 1.73 goals p/g.

Conte - 1.63 goals p/g.

Sarri - 1.1 goals conceded p/g.

Conte - 1 goal conceded p/g.

Sarri -  2.2 big chances created p/g.

Conte - 1.6 big chances created p/g.

 

That's essentially the same team - Jorginho, Kovacic, Moses and Cesc considered. The one team is only marginally worse in goals conceded despite changing formation and style, also not having players suited to the system. Both teams struggled with goals and I'll tell you what - even if you change the manager the team will continue to struggle for goals. You can give Pep this squad and we'd be in the same position with a slim chance of being more solid defensively. You might not be able to 'think of a single thing that we do better under Sarri' but that's by nature subjective. And as I've said before, Sarri is not the end game. The end game is to play good, attacking football ; with a good squad ; and with the right structure at the club.

Whoever the manager is, we need fairly substantial investment to compete for titles. 

I was all for sarri being that man, as I think he is a good manager, and if good manager regardless of style, is given a quality squad that fits his style, then theres a good chance you will see success. 

However, I am losing faith that sarri can be that guy, because of stubbornness to drop under performing players, and his inability to change things on the fly during matches. I can stomach him ignoring the youth players to a degree, but if he gets 5 or 6 new players next season, and a couple of them are playing poorly, is he really going to drop them? That for me is a serious issue at a club that has a big squad, and is competing in 4 competitions. 

Conte and Mourinho stick with their favourites aswell, but sarri doesn't owe this group of players anything, they have not won him a title, so the blind faith is highly frustrating. 

Ideally we would have a manager that played players solely on merit, regardless of age, or history, but I'm not sure theres too many about like that these days.

Edited February 20, 20197 yr by big blue

8 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

So essentially you would like Sarri to turn a midfield of Kovacic, Jorginho, Kante, into goalscoring/goalcreating machines?

We won the league with Kante - Matic in the middle a season and a half ago. Not a lot of goals from them two were there?
It's all about changing the system. Scrap Jorginho and put Kante - Kovacic in the middle where they both would thrive and be ballwinners and we could kill teams on the counter instead of teams doing that to us.o 
 

43 minutes ago, Jezz said:

Can anyone name me a player who's improved under Sarri, because I can't think of one.

Luiz (only 10 appearances last season in the league) has been good this season despite the high defensive line - which I never thought would be possible. Rudiger has been better than last season for me. Kante is better in the attacking third. Hazard is still on track to have his best goal-scoring season since he left Lille. The same with Pedro since he left Barca.

9 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

So essentially you would like Sarri to turn a midfield of Kovacic, Jorginho, Kante, into goalscoring/goalcreating machines? Turn Willian into someone who can score more than 4 goals a season on average. Turn back the clock on Pedro. Make Alonso productive in the final third while still having the recovery pace and stamina to maintain our defensive solidity.

Sarri vs Conte (last season) by the numbers (and bear in mind the kind of football we played under Conte, and the system):

Sarri - 1.73 goals p/g.

Conte - 1.63 goals p/g.

Sarri - 1.1 goals conceded p/g.

Conte - 1 goal conceded p/g.

Sarri -  2.2 big chances created p/g.

Conte - 1.6 big chances created p/g.

 

That's essentially the same team - Jorginho, Kovacic, Moses and Cesc considered. The one team is only marginally worse in goals conceded despite changing formation and style, also not having players suited to the system. Both teams struggled with goals and I'll tell you what - even if you change the manager the team will continue to struggle for goals. You can give Pep this squad and we'd be in the same position with a slim chance of being more solid defensively. You might not be able to 'think of a single thing that we do better under Sarri' but that's by nature subjective. And as I've said before, Sarri is not the end game. The end game is to play good, attacking football ; with a good squad ; and with the right structure at the club.

Stats like that can be useful though as I was once told are we comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges.

Not a fair comparison for me due to Conte playing 106 matches and Sarri only having played 42. Conte for the first season also had a productive Costa.

Re Willian, he is useful on the counter attack not so competent against packed defenses.

 

8 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

So essentially you would like Sarri to turn a midfield of Kovacic, Jorginho, Kante, into goalscoring/goalcreating machines?

I mean two of those players are his signings.... So he only has himself to blame for a lack of goals from midfield, no?

9 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

 Turn Willian into someone who can score more than 4 goals a season on average. Turn back the clock on Pedro.

If only we had a young winger coming through the academy who has a knack for scoring goals that he could call upon. 

11 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

That's essentially the same team

He's got four of his signing in the starting XI... At what point does it stop being the "same"?

12 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

 also not having players suited to the system. 

If they're not suited to playing a system... Why play the system? He can't change the players right now so why not change/tweak the system? 

14 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

You can give Pep this squad and we'd be in the same position with a slim chance of being more solid defensively. You might not be able to 'think of a single thing that we do better under Sarri' but that's by nature subjective.

These two sentences are a contradiction.

You can't say players not improving is subjective (though I'm not sure it is, seeing as none of them have improved) but then state as fact a manager with a proven track record of winning things at three different clubs wouldn't improve us. 

17 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

The end game is to play good, attacking football ; with a good squad ; and with the right structure at the club.

We're not playing good or attacking football. 

This is/was a good squad, they won the title a couple of years ago. If that's not the foundation of building a better team I don't know what is. 

1 hour ago, ForeverCarefree said:

I know I am. 

Seven months in and the players look clueless about how to win against any sort of competent opposition. 

These are players that have won league titles, cups, world cups.

For as bad as things were at times under Conte last season, with a squad containing poor signings and bad relationship with the board we kept pace with the top four finishing 5 points behind a Liverpool side that had Salah scoring for fun and finished the season winning the FA Cup. 

Sarri's been given signings that are specifically for him and his brand of football, something we can't say Conte got and despite this we've arguably gone backwards. We look lost right now and I think Sarri's the main culprit for this. 

His football seems over-complicated at times. Players patting their heads, holding up fingers during set piece routines to me speaks of a manager micromanaging things when we're struggling to get the basics right. Rudiger, Luiz and Jorginho have some of the highest completed pass numbers in the league that's not telling a story of a possession based attacking team it's telling a story of side that doesn't know what to do with the ball. 

It's fair enough that you're not at all happy with Sarri at the moment, and I can understand why you want him gone, but I I completely disagree with the part I've highlighted. Who exactly has Sarri been given? OK, he got Jorginho. That's 1 player. Higuain has only been at the club for 1 month! Kepa was going to be coming with or without Sarri as we needed to replace Courtois. So Sarri has been given 2 signing and 1 of them has only been at the club for 1 month. Now let's look at Conte's signings; Bakayoko, Zappacosta, Morata & Drinkwater. We spent so much money on 'Conte' players, who all turned out to be poor buys.

2 minutes ago, DannyVblue said:

It's fair enough that you're not at all happy with Sarri at the moment, and I can understand why you want him gone, but I I completely disagree with the part I've highlighted. Who exactly has Sarri been given? OK, he got Jorginho. That's 1 player. Higuain has only been at the club for 1 month! Kepa was going to be coming with or without Sarri as we needed to replace Courtois. So Sarri has been given 2 signing and 1 of them has only been at the club for 1 month. Now let's look at Conte's signings; Bakayoko, Zappacosta, Morata & Drinkwater. We spent so much money on 'Conte' players, who all turned out to be poor buys.

Agree, I think @ForeverCarefree is way off on that bit, this is not Sarri's team at all. 

8 minutes ago, DannyVblue said:

Bakayoko, Zappacosta, Morata & Drinkwater. We spent so much money on 'Conte' players, who all turned out to be poor buys.

Conte didn't want any of these four.
Conte was after the likes of Van Dijk, Walker, Alex Sandro, and players from that shelf.

Edited February 20, 20197 yr by Sindre

1 minute ago, Sindre said:

Conte didn't want any of these four.

And how do you know that? They were signed when he was manager. He was a fan of Morata from his Juve days, he played Bakayoko week in week out despite playing poorly, and he must have had some input in signing Torino's right back that none of us had heard of.

1 minute ago, DannyVblue said:

It's fair enough that you're not at all happy with Sarri at the moment, and I can understand why you want him gone, but I I completely disagree with the part I've highlighted. Who exactly has Sarri been given? OK, he got Jorginho. That's 1 player. Higuain has only been at the club for 1 month! Kepa was going to be coming with or without Sarri as we needed to replace Courtois. So Sarri has been given 2 signing and 1 of them has only been at the club for 1 month. Now let's look at Conte's signings; Bakayoko, Zappacosta, Morata & Drinkwater. We spent so much money on 'Conte' players, who all turned out to be poor buys.

He got Jorginho, who apparently is central to "Sarri-ball". He's our most expensive midfield player ever. 

He got Kovacic on loan despite our being overstocked on central midfielders and we've since sold Fabregas because he wasn't happy with his reduced playing time. 

Kepa, world record fee for a goalkeeper. Main attribute is that he's good with his feet... something useful for a possession based team aiming to play out from the back. 

Higuain, despite Conte being told he was too old and too expensive we've bought him in for Sarri and shipped out our record signing centre forward to accommodate the loan. 

Sarri's very much getting it his own way when it comes to transfers, I don't think that can be refuted at all. 

I've been over it before a few times recently but the signings last summer were bad signings. You can't tell me Conte was the one who asked the club to spend £35m on Danny Drinkwater? 

He wanted Sandro for left-wingback and either Oxlade-Chamberlain or Kyle Walker for the right. Got neither of his first choices. 

Wanted Higuain or Lukaku for centre forward. Was told no for Higuain and the club got blindsided by United for Lukaku so Morata was 2nd/3rd choice. 

 

5 minutes ago, DannyVblue said:

And how do you know that? They were signed when he was manager. He was a fan of Morata from his Juve days, he played Bakayoko week in week out despite playing poorly, and he must have had some input in signing Torino's right back that none of us had heard of.

As for Bakayoko he literally said his intention was to have him learn behind Matic in the pecking order. But then the club turned around and sold Matic behind Conte's back.
And he wanted Lukaku instead of Morata which Emenalo later confirmed and Zappacosta was one pathetic, desperate, foolish deadline day purchase along with Drinkwater and they were clearly not players that Conte wanted to buy. He may have accepted them, but no way in hell did he really want them.

We could have had Alex Sandro for 60 million if we wanted to do it. Conte certainly did.
But he was too exspensive for the club.
Sarri hadn't even been here for a month when we bought a goalkeeper for a world-record 75 million fee. See the difference?

Edited February 20, 20197 yr by Sindre

4 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

He got Jorginho, who apparently is central to "Sarri-ball". He's our most expensive midfield player ever. 

He got Kovacic on loan despite our being overstocked on central midfielders and we've since sold Fabregas because he wasn't happy with his reduced playing time. 

Kepa, world record fee for a goalkeeper. Main attribute is that he's good with his feet... something useful for a possession based team aiming to play out from the back. 

Higuain, despite Conte being told he was too old and too expensive we've bought him in for Sarri and shipped out our record signing centre forward to accommodate the loan. 

 

Thats four players, two on loan, one for six months.

If thats backing the manager we are truly doomed whomever we get in, the club cannot be trusted to buy quality and should consider how much money has been wasted on dross.

7 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Agree, I think @ForeverCarefree is way off on that bit, this is not Sarri's team at all. 

Conte's signings in his first season were Alonso because we failed in a bid for Sandro and a deadline day signing of re-signing David Luiz because other deals had fallen through. We also signed Kante, who at that time was still a somewhat unknown quantity despite a great season with Leicester the year before... There question marks about whether he would be a one season wonder. 

He bought Victor Moses in from the cold despite underwhelming loan spells at Stoke and West Ham and converted him into a fullback due to a lack of other options. 

3 signings. Would you argue that in that first season it was "Conte's team"? 

How many signings does it take for it to become the manager's team? 

1 minute ago, ForeverCarefree said:

He got Jorginho, who apparently is central to "Sarri-ball". He's our most expensive midfield player ever. 

He got Kovacic on loan despite our being overstocked on central midfielders and we've since sold Fabregas because he wasn't happy with his reduced playing time. 

Kepa, world record fee for a goalkeeper. Main attribute is that he's good with his feet... something useful for a possession based team aiming to play out from the back. 

Higuain, despite Conte being told he was too old and too expensive we've bought him in for Sarri and shipped out our record signing centre forward to accommodate the loan. 

Sarri's very much getting it his own way when it comes to transfers, I don't think that can be refuted at all. 

I've been over it before a few times recently but the signings last summer were bad signings. You can't tell me Conte was the one who asked the club to spend £35m on Danny Drinkwater? 

He wanted Sandro for left-wingback and either Oxlade-Chamberlain or Kyle Walker for the right. Got neither of his first choices. 

Wanted Higuain or Lukaku for centre forward. Was told no for Higuain and the club got blindsided by United for Lukaku so Morata was 2nd/3rd choice. 

 

He got Kovacic on loan as part o the Courtois deal. We're not over-stacked in midfield, Sarri wanted Fabregas replaced, but did he get the signing that he wanted? No. If you don't think Drinkwater was a Conte signing then by the same logic Kovacic wasn't a Sarri signing.

Kepa literally signed a couple of weeks after Sarri joined. No doubt he was consulted, but we needed a replacement either way. Kepa would have been signed whoever our manager was.

Higuain has only been with us a month, so has obviously had very little impact so far.

So Conte didn't get his first choices - it happens. His 2nd choices were very poor.

4 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Conte's signings in his first season were Alonso because we failed in a bid for Sandro and a deadline day signing of re-signing David Luiz because other deals had fallen through. We also signed Kante, who at that time was still a somewhat unknown quantity despite a great season with Leicester the year before... There question marks about whether he would be a one season wonder. 

He bought Victor Moses in from the cold despite underwhelming loan spells at Stoke and West Ham and converted him into a fullback due to a lack of other options. 

3 signings. Would you argue that in that first season it was "Conte's team"? 

How many signings does it take for it to become the manager's team? 

Conte had a world class striker, Sarri had Morata.

5 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Conte's signings in his first season were Alonso because we failed in a bid for Sandro and a deadline day signing of re-signing David Luiz because other deals had fallen through. We also signed Kante, who at that time was still a somewhat unknown quantity despite a great season with Leicester the year before... There question marks about whether he would be a one season wonder. 

He bought Victor Moses in from the cold despite underwhelming loan spells at Stoke and West Ham and converted him into a fullback due to a lack of other options. 

3 signings. Would you argue that in that first season it was "Conte's team"? 

How many signings does it take for it to become the manager's team? 

No, I wouldn't say that was Conte's team. Conte did brilliantly with the resources he had during that first season. I'm a Conte fan! 

I just don't agree with you when you say that Sarri has been backed, whereas Conte wasn't. There's no difference. 

1 minute ago, DannyVblue said:

He got Kovacic on loan as part o the Courtois deal. We're not over-stacked in midfield, Sarri wanted Fabregas replaced, but did he get the signing that he wanted? No. If you don't think Drinkwater was a Conte signing then by the same logic Kovacic wasn't a Sarri signing.

Kepa literally signed a couple of weeks after Sarri joined. No doubt he was consulted, but we needed a replacement either way. Kepa would have been signed whoever our manager was.

Higuain has only been with us a month, so has obviously had very little impact so far.

So Conte didn't get his first choices - it happens. His 2nd choices were very poor.

Kante, Barkley, Jorginho, RLC, Fabregas, Drinkwater, Ampadu were all on the books, seven players for three positions in midfield before signing Kovacic... Of course we were overstocked. 

We've broke the bank for Sarri signings. Making two record signings in Jorginho and Kepa. 

The amount of impact Higuain has had is immaterial to the discussion. We've shipped out a costly signing on loan to accommodate a player Sarri knows and trusts in order to maximise Sarri's potential of success despite it largely going against club policy to bring in players over the age of 30.  

Higuain was signed because he's supposed to make immediate impact, he's the chosen one and knew it all about how Sarri ball works. He hasn't been terrible, but certainly underwhelming. It's the kind of short term signing Chelsea not keen, but did it anyway to help Sarri out. Sarri got more support from the board than Conte. Conte had Morata under performing for a season, of course it's his own fault to kick out Costa and started off the whole thing, bet he won't be fast on keypad in his next job.

2 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Kante, Barkley, Jorginho, RLC, Fabregas, Drinkwater, Ampadu were all on the books, seven players for three positions in midfield before signing Kovacic... Of course we were overstocked. 

We've broke the bank for Sarri signings. Making two record signings in Jorginho and Kepa. 

The amount of impact Higuain has had is immaterial to the discussion. We've shipped out a costly signing on loan to accommodate a player Sarri knows and trusts in order to maximise Sarri's potential of success despite it largely going against club policy to bring in players over the age of 30.  

And Conte was backed with our record signing at the time 60m Morata. He was backed with £40m Bakayoko. 

Like I said, there's no difference.

Ultimately, you want your managers to be backed. Sarri has been backed with a couple of signing, that isn't enough. 

56 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

Stats like that can be useful though as I was once told are we comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges.

Not a fair comparison for me due to Conte playing 106 matches and Sarri only having played 42. Conte for the first season also had a productive Costa.

Re Willian, he is useful on the counter attack not so competent against packed defenses.

 

I can guarantee you that those stats are as close as you will get to being relevant for topic at hand. There is no such thing as comparing apples to apples in football debate. Everything has a caveat. Those are official EPL stats only. 

 

54 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

I mean two of those players are his signings.... So he only has himself to blame for a lack of goals from midfield, no?

If only we had a young winger coming through the academy who has a knack for scoring goals that he could call upon. 

He's got four of his signing in the starting XI... At what point does it stop being the "same"?

If they're not suited to playing a system... Why play the system? He can't change the players right now so why not change/tweak the system? 

These two sentences are a contradiction.

You can't say players not improving is subjective (though I'm not sure it is, seeing as none of them have improved) but then state as fact a manager with a proven track record of winning things at three different clubs wouldn't improve us. 

We're not playing good or attacking football. 

This is/was a good squad, they won the title a couple of years ago. If that's not the foundation of building a better team I don't know what is. 

1. So you've decided Kovacic is his signing? Ok. All we know is he asked for another midfielder 'with a different profile'. The club gave him the convenient option (Courtois deal). And we signed a more experienced Ross Barkley.

2. Yes those academy wingers who become instant game changers at top clubs are so rare aren't they?

3. Jorginho, the newly signed Higuain, Kovacic (your claim) and who is the fourth?

4. He was brought here specifically to try to implement his system. I agree that for his own sake he has to tweak something. Conte was brought here to bring stability and attempt to play attacking football (Jose was confused by this very thing). Conte first tried 4-2-4 and 4-3-3. The board tolerated the change to defensive football because of results. When the results stopped, so did Conte.

5. Those sentences are in no way a contradiction. You don't seem to understand that the subjective bit is your perception of the players' lack of improvement.

6.  Again, that is a matter of perspective but I agree. Except that the squad isn't good. It is unbalanced. They won a title on the back of having two good goalscorers and no real challengers (Pep/ Mourinho first season and Tottenham coming a close second should highlight this fact). Winning an unexpected title and not improving the squad is no foundation at all . 

Edited February 20, 20197 yr by venom2011

1 hour ago, Sindre said:

Or his system just won't work in this league. It's too reliant on a slow and weak defensive midfielder who can't withstand pressure in this league for example. And there are countless examples of this but Jorginho is maybe the clearest indication that this just won't work here in England.
Sarri and Jorginho have been well and truly found out and Sarri himself has said he will not change so blueprint to beat that everyone has at this point will continue to be the way to beat us for as long as Sarri is here.

 

I think the criticism Jorginho has gotten is unnecessary. Like most of the players, they've fallen off in form since the end of last year, but with Jorginho I think it's more of a case of the players don't know the system, whereas at Napoli or (where was was going to go) City their team is like a oiled machine so they know what they are doing. Also, the pace in England is definitely a big reason. He is adapting to the league, around new players, with the added pressure of having to perform week in, week out due to the reputation he came with and money paid for him. The same rubbish was being spouted about Pep and his style not working in England. I clearly remember the pundits etc saying he's a bald fraud, the style won't work in England etc, etc. This is why to me it's taken with a pinch of salt. England isn't any better tactically than other leagues, so I refuse to believe any style wouldn't work in the Prem. 

13 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Kante, Barkley, Jorginho, RLC, Fabregas, Drinkwater, Ampadu were all on the books, seven players for three positions in midfield before signing Kovacic... Of course we were overstocked. 

We've broke the bank for Sarri signings. Making two record signings in Jorginho and Kepa. 

The amount of impact Higuain has had is immaterial to the discussion. We've shipped out a costly signing on loan to accommodate a player Sarri knows and trusts in order to maximise Sarri's potential of success despite it largely going against club policy to bring in players over the age of 30.  

Signings under Sarri and Sarri signings are two different things. You know how this club works. Which one is Pulisic?

Again you saying he was shipped out to accommodate Higuain rather than a push from the player or a because Morata was simply trash, does not make it true. And the club brought in Giroud just the season before. The club policy changed before Sarri's arrival.

''Morata is potentially a very good player. He has the characteristics for playing in my team, but one month ago he said he wanted to play for another team."