I'm going to get the videos out to make Paul Furlong look like Drogba.

11 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

I'm going to get the videos out to make Paul Furlong look like Drogba.

In case you are referring to the most recent post, I'm not making Jorginho look like someone that he is not at all.

His stats speak for him and what they say is that he has been one of our most consistent midfielders ever since he joined, and those stats can be traced back to the games where he played, which is what I did on a small scale in the most recent post.

So you really don't have a real complaint here, unless you simply disliked what you saw and want to discredit it in such a random manner.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

In case you are referring to the most recent post, I'm not making Jorginho look like someone that he is not at all.

His stats speak for him and what they say is that he has been one of our most consistent midfielders ever since he joined, and those stats can be traced back to the games where he played, which is what I did on a small scale in the most recent post.

So you really don't have a real complaint here, unless you simply disliked what you saw and want to discredit it in such a random manner.

Everytime I come into this thread I see your stats and videos, I see it more as desperation to defend a player when it's easier to see someone's strength and weaknesses by watching the game. I was just taking the p***

1 minute ago, Ernie_blue said:

Everytime I come into this thread I see your stats and videos, I see it more as desperation to defend a player when it's easier to see someone's strength and weaknesses by watching the game. I was just taking the p***

As long as he's deemed as a guy who "can't even play in the Premier League" by the others, there won't be any need for any other kind of a discussion anyway! 

18 hours ago, Gol15 said:

As long as he's deemed as a guy who "can't even play in the Premier League" by the others, there won't be any need for any other kind of a discussion anyway! 

Then why do you continue the discussion?

I think Jorginho is a good player. He's got his weaknesses, but so do plenty of others. He has games where he absolutely bosses the midfield, such as Palace. There are plenty of other games where he can be seen to be ineffective, despite his impressive passing stats. I think he is/can be an integral part of this Chelsea side, particularly if he builds a good understanding with the players around him. Seeing it already with T Silva and Havertz...

I'm sure I will get a sh*t ton of useless stats thrown at me to try and disprove the point I am about to make, but today's game is a perfect example of why I said we will never win titles with a Jorginho type player in our team. The simple fact of the matter is that against high pressing teams like Southampton, he just cannot cope. He was a passenger all game, he couldn't protect the defence and this is why they were able to create so many chances.

I said I was surprised by Crystal Palace's approach when we played them before the international break, and this is the exact reason why. They caused us no issues because they sat back and tried to play counter attacking football against us, today was the complete opposite. Southampton were pressing from the first minute and that pressure nullified Jorginho's game.  

Jorginho is only useful when he has the ball, as a shield for the defense, he's useless. Most teams in English football just won't allow you that time, it's high intensity from the first minute to the last in most games.

I thought he played well. Made lots of interceptions and kept the ball moving quickly.

Played ok today but he needs a Matic next to him

Assist today aswell.. but as usual every time we have a game where we concede  someone will be out to say he can’t shield a defence. Nothing to do with Kepa and Christensen it’s all Jorginho’s fault we conceded three goals. Weird how the week before kepa and Christensen didn’t play but Jorginho the useless defence shield did and we conceded zero. 

As someone that has watched him closely I can tell you that this game is almost a standard performance from him.

He usually does those long passes toward the striker, usually goes for the other flank and I think that him finding Chilwell open is something really positive for us and that has been going on ever since Chilwell started playing for us.

I do however think that his lack of urgency was clearly shown. I don't mean that he didn't have good decision-making when he had the ball, I mean that he didn't look to receive the ball as often as he usually does. IMO if he had more urgency of getting things done we maybe could have scored more in the first half.

43 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

I'm sure I will get a sh*t ton of useless stats thrown at me to try and disprove the point I am about to make, but today's game is a perfect example of why I said we will never win titles with a Jorginho type player in our team. The simple fact of the matter is that against high pressing teams like Southampton, he just cannot cope. He was a passenger all game, he couldn't protect the defence and this is why they were able to create so many chances.

I said I was surprised by Crystal Palace's approach when we played them before the international break, and this is the exact reason why. They caused us no issues because they sat back and tried to play counter attacking football against us, today was the complete opposite. Southampton were pressing from the first minute and that pressure nullified Jorginho's game.  

Jorginho is only useful when he has the ball, as a shield for the defense, he's useless. Most teams in English football just won't allow you that time, it's high intensity from the first minute to the last in most games.

Bollocks.

46 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

I'm sure I will get a sh*t ton of useless stats thrown at me to try and disprove the point I am about to make, but today's game is a perfect example of why I said we will never win titles with a Jorginho type player in our team. The simple fact of the matter is that against high pressing teams like Southampton, he just cannot cope. He was a passenger all game, he couldn't protect the defence and this is why they were able to create so many chances.

I said I was surprised by Crystal Palace's approach when we played them before the international break, and this is the exact reason why. They caused us no issues because they sat back and tried to play counter attacking football against us, today was the complete opposite. Southampton were pressing from the first minute and that pressure nullified Jorginho's game.  

Jorginho is only useful when he has the ball, as a shield for the defense, he's useless. Most teams in English football just won't allow you that time, it's high intensity from the first minute to the last in most games.

I have no idea what the stats are but from what i saw he made a lot of interceptions as usual, thats his way of protecting the defence. 

2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

As someone that has watched him closely I can tell you that this game is almost a standard performance from him.

He usually does those long passes toward the striker, usually goes for the other flank and I think that him finding Chilwell open is something really positive for us and that has been going on ever since Chilwell started playing for us.

I do however think that his lack of urgency was clearly shown. I don't mean that he didn't have good decision-making when he had the ball, I mean that he didn't look to receive the ball as often as he usually does. IMO if he had more urgency of getting things done we maybe could have scored more in the first half.

I think you have a balanced view on him.. but let’s frame it another way and see if he’s being viewed fairly..

was he as or more effective than his midfield partner Kante? Kante actually looks like a player signed from the French second division now and not a world class midfielder his passing was dreadful I thought. There was a instance in the first half where there rb was shaping to cross and Kante come steaming over 100mph and jumped in front of him and you could tell there fullback knew it was coming it was so obvious turned inside Kante like he was never even there and had 20 yards space on the right side of our box, does Jorginho leave gaps like that when he is being a useless defensive shield? 
Jorginho and kovacic was when we played our best football by far last season and when Thiago Silva isn’t playing Jorginho has to point everyone where to be and it probably takes his energy and urgency to get on the ball as much IMO 

f**k I wish we had signed partey to pair with Jorginho/kovacic that midfield and attack would be far and away the best in the league

Edited October 17, 20205 yr by I Am Gay 4 Diegod

Just now, I Am Gay 4 Diegod said:

Bollocks.

Great counter argument.

Tell me then smart ass, what does he offer the team when the opposition are playing a high pressing game against us? The assist was nice, but those are once in a blue moon assists and in all honestly, that is not what I am looking for from that position in a game like today. When teams are pressing like Southamptom were today, we need somebody that will take back control and be that shield in front of the defence. Jorginho isn't capable of this in this type of game.

Like all of our midfielders, he has certain qualities for certain situations, but in games like today, he's a hindrance.

1 minute ago, I Am Gay 4 Diegod said:

I think you have a balanced view on him.. but let’s frame it another way and see if he’s being viewed fairly..

was he as or more effective than his midfield partner Kante? Kante actually looks like a player signed from the French second division now and not a world class midfielder his passing was dreadful I thought. There was a instance in the first half where there rb was shaping to cross and Kante come steaming over 100mph and jumped in front of him and you could tell there fullback knew it was coming it was so obvious turned inside Kante like he was never even there and had 20 yards space on the right side of our box, does Jorginho leave gaps like that when he is being a useless defensive shield? 
Jorginho and kovacic was when we played our best football by far last season and when Thiago Silva isn’t playing Jorginho has to point everyone where to be and it probably takes his energy and urgency to get on the ball as much IMO 

I think Kovacic was the POTY for a reason, he runs with the ball and Jorginho moves the team so they fit together nicely and last season was a testimony of that.

Kante was a bit all over the place today... Yet you won't see anyone scrutinize him, people come to bash Jorginho as soon as any game ends...

1 minute ago, Scott Harris said:

Great counter argument.

Tell me then smart ass, what does he offer the team when the opposition are playing a high pressing game against us? The assist was nice, but those are once in a blue moon assists and in all honestly, that is not what I am looking for from that position in a game like today. When teams are pressing like Southamptom were today, we need somebody that will take back control and be that shield in front of the defence. Jorginho isn't capable of this in this type of game.

Like all of our midfielders, he has certain qualities for certain situations, but in games like today, he's a hindrance.

Your an idiot I’m not even doing this I’ll just ask you if you think Kante performed equally better or worse than Jorginho? 
 

 

3 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

Great counter argument.

Tell me then smart ass, what does he offer the team when the opposition are playing a high pressing game against us? The assist was nice, but those are once in a blue moon assists and in all honestly, that is not what I am looking for from that position in a game like today. When teams are pressing like Southamptom were today, we need somebody that will take back control and be that shield in front of the defence. Jorginho isn't capable of this in this type of game.

Like all of our midfielders, he has certain qualities for certain situations, but in games like today, he's a hindrance.

You keep droning on that he isn’t press resistant but forgetting to ask yourself what is his midfield partner Doing who some call the best shield of a defence in the world ?!?! Ok I’ll entertain you Jorginho didn’t do a good enough job shielding the defence but he assisted and scored two goals the game before this. 
 

WHAT HAS KANTE OFFERED ?

4 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

Great counter argument.

Tell me then smart ass, what does he offer the team when the opposition are playing a high pressing game against us? The assist was nice, but those are once in a blue moon assists and in all honestly, that is not what I am looking for from that position in a game like today. When teams are pressing like Southamptom were today, we need somebody that will take back control and be that shield in front of the defence. Jorginho isn't capable of this in this type of game.

Like all of our midfielders, he has certain qualities for certain situations, but in games like today, he's a hindrance.

Jorginho has been dealing with the press for how long now, 3 seasons? Ever since Sarri came teams thought that they need to mark Jorginho out of the game, did it work or did we finish top 3 and won Europa League? 

Furthermore you clearly don't pay that much attention, those kind of long range passes Jorginho puts up almost every game, the fact that most don't become goals is a totally different issue.

Thought he played well. He can play better though. The assist was outstanding and he does have those passes and vision in his locker.

Often Kante would be so high up chasing every ball like a bulldog that Jorginho was left alone to shield the defense. Therefore to see the best of him a 3 men midfield should be played.

Pirlo was considered one of the best in the world sitting just in front of the defence yet he lacked physicality and he wasn't the best tackler, however he had Marchisio and vidal at their prime doing the defensive work for him where it gave Pirlo the opportunity to pull the strings like a quarter back. 

We can have something similar with Jorginho.

Just now, Gentian said:

Thought he played well. He can play better though. The assist was outstanding and he does have those passes and vision in his locker.

Often Kante would be so high up chasing every ball like a bulldog that Jorginho was left alone to shield the defense. Therefore to see the best of him a 3 men midfield should be played.

Pirlo was considered one of the best in the world sitting just in front of the defence yet he lacked physicality and he wasn't the best tackler, however he had Marchisio and vidal at their prime doing the defensive work for him where it gave Pirlo the opportunity to pull the strings like a quarter back. 

We can have something similar with Jorginho.

Really nice insight, Pirlo had also Ambrosini and his bulldog type was Gattuso as well in the past prior to Marchisio and Vidal.

I have said it multiple times but even if we could put the best DMs, e.g. Casemiro and Fernandinho, our defense with Kepa and Christensen would still concede goals. Now the fact that Pep used Fernandinho as a CB and that Klopp used Fabinho as a CB only shows that it's more vital to have a proper defender that can actually defend and that having a DM doesn't automatically mean that your defense won't suffer because we have seen just today that the Saints could skip the whole midfield and score a goal... Jorginho does his role regardless of opposition.

4 minutes ago, I Am Gay 4 Diegod said:

Your an idiot I’m not even doing this I’ll just ask you if you think Kante performed equally better or worse than Jorginho? 
 

 

If YOU'RE going to call me an idiot, then make sure you spell properly first.

As for Kante, he was really sh*t today too, I said enough about him in the match thread. He couldn't pass all day and his tackling was terrible. The difference between Kante and Jorginho is that Kante isn't in the position to be a shield for our defence. He's too often involved up the field and roaming to be asked to play that role. 

Jorginho is a luxury player for me. He can play one position and only one way. If he is ever out of his comfort zone, he struggles, which also puts the whole team in trouble. I don't think it's a good idea to build a team around that. I just don't see how we will ever compete for Premier League titles when this issue keeps cropping up.

1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

I'm sure I will get a sh*t ton of useless stats thrown at me to try and disprove the point I am about to make, but today's game is a perfect example of why I said we will never win titles with a Jorginho type player in our team. The simple fact of the matter is that against high pressing teams like Southampton, he just cannot cope. He was a passenger all game, he couldn't protect the defence and this is why they were able to create so many chances.

I said I was surprised by Crystal Palace's approach when we played them before the international break, and this is the exact reason why. They caused us no issues because they sat back and tried to play counter attacking football against us, today was the complete opposite. Southampton were pressing from the first minute and that pressure nullified Jorginho's game.  

Jorginho is only useful when he has the ball, as a shield for the defense, he's useless. Most teams in English football just won't allow you that time, it's high intensity from the first minute to the last in most games.

I agree with that assessment Scott but my main problem is that every time Jorginho doesn’t play the team looks clueless in the middle of the park. You see players passing the ball to the defence constantly and not knowing what to do. If we were playing the way we played under conte (more direct) I could see how we could work without Jorginho. However, I just don’t see us being able to play possession football without Jorginho. It’s either we focus on our defence and midfield to better protect him or we scrap what has been two years of a transition to possession football. And that didn’t work quite well when we did it with Mourinho coming back the second time despite winning a couple of trophies in the short term. 

19 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Jorginho has been dealing with the press for how long now, 3 seasons? Ever since Sarri came teams thought that they need to mark Jorginho out of the game, did it work or did we finish top 3 and won Europa League? 

Furthermore you clearly don't pay that much attention, those kind of long range passes Jorginho puts up almost every game, the fact that most don't become goals is a totally different issue.

And for 3 seasons we have been leaking goals like crazy, bullied in midfield, seeing constant complaints about the defence getting no help from the midfield. It's the same sh*t in these types of games for 3 years now.

26 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

And for 3 seasons we have been leaking goals like crazy, bullied in midfield, seeing constant complaints about the defence getting no help from the midfield. It's the same sh*t in these types of games for 3 years now.

I see no relation to us conceding goals and Jorginho. Hasn't he been playing his role for 2 seasons and going strong in his 3rd for the club?

You can't blame him for our bad defending, he has actually had the most interceptions made out of all midfielders that we have, he can't do the job of the CB so he isn't like Fabinho or Fernandinho that can play there if needed but that's not a proper complaint, you should be ranting in other threads then.

If you think that buying Rice is going to magically turn our defenders like Christensen and our keeper Kepa into better players you are in for a huge disappointment my friend, huge... You can put Casemiro today instead of Jorginho and we score 1 goal less but still concede 3. 

If there is any indication of our midfield being the problem it doesn't really have much to do with who plays but how it's played, I have seen how our midfield got broken last season regardless of who was playing in it.

Edited October 17, 20205 yr by Gol15