22 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

So now you not only backtrack but also want to include their age difference? Funny, I thought you said 100 times that as soon as we stop playing Jorginho we would be challenging for the league title, wouldn't it only be even more obvious if we have Rice that is according to you, the best possible signing we could ever get?

Like I said, let's put your theory to the test, let's get your own personal pick, the best possible signing for that position that, according to you is Rice. Let's see if he can also just come here and finish top 3 in his first season, if he's that much better than it should be possible. Let's hold him to that standard that you said, that we won things despite of having Jorginho and not because, by that logic having someone that is so good according to you, could only be a positive thing... Or are you already afraid of the prospect of Rice failing?

Gol once again not understanding what backtracking is. 

Unreal that you can't get your head around the fact improving a position won't automatically make us title challengers, but it'll get us one step closer. Are we bringing back a prime Hazard to carry us like Jorginho had? Tell you what though, now you've made such a big fuss if we finish third with him you better be ready to deactivate your account because you'll be getting daily messages from me. 

This is quite literally a win : win for me. 

50 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

You do realise to backtrack i have to have said it first, right? 

Jorginho won the CL with us at 29, Rice has 5 years to do that. Anything higher than 72 points in his first season is also an upgrade. 

Hope you understand this, let me know if you want me to break it down further for you.

I would have actually accepted that if you and others weren't also saying 22 year old Rice would be a major upgrade on Jorginho when fresh of a UCL win.

6 minutes ago, Argo said:

I would have actually accepted that if you and others weren't also saying 22 year old Rice would be a major upgrade on Jorginho when fresh of a UCL win.

He would be over the course of a 38 game league season. Jorginho does well in Europe. We finished 4th by one point in the league that same season while losing many crucial games in the run in. 

As one of Jorgi's biggest critics who has argued with Gol15 for years. I think this Rice debate is a bit odd. 

He has better attributes than Jorginho and should be judged accordingly. I honestly prefer Enzo to Rice but that's a different discussion entirely

The argument really should be Enzo vs Jorginho and Caicedo vs Rice. 

54 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Gol once again not understanding what backtracking is. 

Unreal that you can't get your head around the fact improving a position won't automatically make us title challengers, but it'll get us one step closer. Are we bringing back a prime Hazard to carry us like Jorginho had? Tell you what though, now you've made such a big fuss if we finish third with him you better be ready to deactivate your account because you'll be getting daily messages from me. 

This is quite literally a win : win for me. 

Oh wow, you're even bringing up Hazard, looks like you lost another debate but this one even before it started...

1 hour ago, Argo said:

I would have actually accepted that if you and others weren't also saying 22 year old Rice would be a major upgrade on Jorginho when fresh of a UCL win.

He's already started with excuses...

1. Age difference
2. Time spent at the club
3. Having or not having Hazard in the squad

At first it was all so simple, we get rid of Jorginho and we challange for titles, now even with just the hypothetical idea of signing Rice he's already begging for a more fair judgement and suddenly other factors are included... No point to continue when the goal posts keep moving.

13 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Oh wow, you're even bringing up Hazard, looks like you lost another debate but this one even before it started...

So Hazard wasn't the best player in the league under Sarri and carried us in all competitions? A calibre of player which is now missing from the current squad?

Proper braindead you are lmao

Just now, Gol15 said:

He's already started with excuses...

1. Age difference
2. Time spent at the club
3. Having or not having Hazard in the squad

At first it was all so simple, we get rid of Jorginho and we challange for titles, now even with just the hypothetical idea of signing Rice he's already begging for a more fair judgement and suddenly other factors are included... No point to continue when the goal posts keep moving.

Once again, an upgrade isn't challenging for a title. An upgrade currently is finishing above 10th. Comparing different squads and different eras. Any normal human can see that, you cling to whatever J5 hope you need though.

Just now, RIP Mourinho said:

Once again, an upgrade isn't challenging for a title. An upgrade currently is finishing above 10th. Comparing different squads and different eras. Any normal human can see that, you cling to whatever J5 hope you need though.

But you said it would be enough just to remove Jorginho from the squad in order to challenge for the league title. I played by your own rules, and won even before Rice took the pen in his hand to sign the contract... Sad.

26 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

But you said it would be enough just to remove Jorginho from the squad in order to challenge for the league title. I played by your own rules, and won even before Rice took the pen in his hand to sign the contract... Sad.

When have i said that? I've said he'd be an upgrade in the league. The current squad isn't close to our squads of the past. Use your brain. 

2 hours ago, enigma said:

Does anyone else here not know what the f*** a "regista" is? All these fandangled descriptions for positions on the pitch is bemusing lol. I think that's why many people get confused by what Jorginho's job is to do in the team. 

Is it the same as an inside right or the old wing half?

I don't have any skin in the Jorgi vs Rice debate....

But what is clear is the Jorginho is not the future - and that is in my mind for the best, given his lack of pace, physicality, goal scoring (from open play), creativity and ability to consistently break the lines with penetrating passes.

For what it is worth, Rice is faster, stronger, better in the air, more of a goal threat and better in the tackle. He is also more versatile. Does he have the speed of thought of Jorgi? No - probably not.  But i think in most other areas Rice wins.

Will Rice make us immediately into title challengers - Probably not, but still probably a better bet than Jorgi.

1 hour ago, just said:

Is it the same as an inside right or the old wing half?

What is a quarterback?

4 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

The argument really should be Enzo vs Jorginho and Caicedo vs Rice. 

I think a lot of people have got fixated on this obsession with Rice because of his roots so won't allow themselves to admit Declan is bang average and for the money he'd cost there are dozens of better midfielders so instead incessantly compare him physically to Jorgi.

Really don't see why people would want Rice over people like Enzo, Milinkovic Savic, Bennacer, Caicedo etc

3 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

I don't have any skin in the Jorgi vs Rice debate....

But what is clear is the Jorginho is not the future - and that is in my mind for the best, given his lack of pace, physicality, goal scoring (from open play), creativity and ability to consistently break the lines with penetrating passes.

For what it is worth, Rice is faster, stronger, better in the air, more of a goal threat and better in the tackle. He is also more versatile. Does he have the speed of thought of Jorgi? No - probably not.  But i think in most other areas Rice wins.

Will Rice make us immediately into title challengers - Probably not, but still probably a better bet than Jorgi.

At least someone gets it

15 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

For what it is worth, Rice is faster, stronger, better in the air, more of a goal threat and better in the tackle. He is also more versatile. Does he have the speed of thought of Jorgi? No - probably not.  But i think in most other areas Rice wins.

Will Rice make us immediately into title challengers - Probably not, but still probably a better bet than Jorgi.

But doesn't that in itself bring an issue? If we sign him especially for the price he will command we have to be 99.9% sure he's the right answer. Signing players with the only logic being they are/we think they are better than what we have (in his position) is the exact same type of mental gymnastics people used to justify Lukaku's signings (amoung others) which has played a part in getting this squad in such a mess in the first place.

If he's going to be a reasonably priced punt that would only be a starter if he earned it on merit I could maybe be persuaded into seeing the plus side, but a £70m or more undisputed starter on one of the highest wages who also will likely become next long term captain over a much more deserved candidate in Reece James, f**k that.

13 minutes ago, Argo said:

But doesn't that in itself bring an issue? If we sign him especially for the price he will command we have to be 99.9% sure he's the right answer. Signing players with the only logic being they are/we think they are better than what we have (in his position) is the exact same type of mental gymnastics people used to justify Lukaku's signings (amoung others) which has played a part in getting this squad in such a mess in the first place.

If he's going to be a reasonably priced punt that would only be a starter if he earned it on merit I could maybe be persuaded into seeing the plus side, but a £70m or more undisputed starter on one of the highest wages who also will likely become next long term captain over a much more deserved candidate in Reece James, f**k that.

Isn't every signing anyone ever makes a punt that could go wrong? Hazard could have come to us in 2012 and not adapted to the league and failed. Havertz looked like a world beater and is quite the opposite. Christ Bakayoko looked capable then came here as the worst player to ever wear the shirt. Then you have players like Alonso who looked like we'd overspent on a Bolton reject and went on to be a cult hero at the club. 

Every team has a physical presence in their midfield except for us. Rice/Enzo would keep us going for a decade with Santos/Casadei coming through too.

9 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Isn't every signing anyone ever makes a punt that could go wrong? Hazard could have come to us in 2012 and not adapted to the league and failed. Havertz looked like a world beater and is quite the opposite. Christ Bakayoko looked capable then came here as the worst player to ever wear the shirt. Then you have players like Alonso who looked like we'd overspent on a Bolton reject and went on to be a cult hero at the club. 

Every team has a physical presence in their midfield except for us. Rice/Enzo would keep us going for a decade with Santos/Casadei coming through too.

Alonso's price was pretty much punt range by that time, Hazard was a cast iron guarantee, Bakayoko just further reinforces my point further, Havertz fair enough.

Regarding the physical aspect maybe but there's a balance needed. I still remember the end of both Jose 2.0 and Conte's time when we were too far the other way and couldn't cope against even half arsed pressing let alone committed (we were lucky at that time that a lot of teams in this league were still managed by the likes of Roy, Hughton and Pulis).

For all of Jorginho, Kova's, Sarri's and also to an extent Kepa's faults, they instantly improved our ability to beat a press which what helped us start competing in Europe again.

Edited January 18, 20233 yr by Argo

18 hours ago, Gol15 said:

No point to continue when the goal posts keep moving

And yet, continue you shall

5 minutes ago, Argo said:

Alonso's price was pretty much punt range by that time, Hazard was a cast iron guarantee, Bakayoko just further reinforces my point further, Havertz fair enough.

Regarding the physical aspect maybe but there's a balance needed. I still remember the end of both Jose 2.0 and Conte's time when we were too far the other way and couldn't cope against even half arsed pressing let alone committed (we were lucky at that time that a lot of teams in this league were still managed by the likes of Roy, Hughton and Pulis).

For all of Jorginho, Kova's, Sarri's and also to an extent Kepa's faults, they instantly improved our ability to beat a press which what helped us start competing in Europe again.

Hazard can't have been a cast iron guarantee, no one is. Hazard if anything fell into the Bakayoko category of good in France. Two completely different career trajectories once they got to England.

Agree there's a balance needed, something like Rice/Enzo seems the perfect blend. Far too early for him yet but Santos also looks like the Enzo breed of footballer as well.

22 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Hazard can't have been a cast iron guarantee, no one is. Hazard if anything fell into the Bakayoko category of good in France. Two completely different career trajectories once they got to England.

Agree there's a balance needed, something like Rice/Enzo seems the perfect blend. Far too early for him yet but Santos also looks like the Enzo breed of footballer as well.

I disagree, players like Hazard when they come along the only thing that stops them is a freak injury, some players are just that special. By comparison people were already expressing concern over Bakayoko based on highlights reel alone.

If rumours are to believed we're potentially getting the 'balance' to Enzo from Brighton this month.

21 hours ago, enigma said:

Does anyone else here not know what the f*** a "regista" is? All these fandangled descriptions for positions on the pitch is bemusing lol. I think that's why many people get confused by what Jorginho's job is to do in the team. 

The direct translation, as you probably know, is “director”. Whether this is appropriate or not… 🤷‍♂️. I’m still kind of bemused as to how much airtime Jorgi gets, yet here I am.

@Bob starkresponded to my earlier observation on it with good answers, but he STILL doesn’t seem like a player that should generate so much controversy. examples of players I think of as controversial:

Ibrahimovic

Neymar

Xhaka

Balotelli

Gazza

There’s usually some sort of conflict between clear talent and attitude / mental stability. Jorginho though… again 🤷‍♂️ 

23 hours ago, just said:

Jorginho is the very epitome of a player type not suited to the EPL. Small, lightweight, no pace, no natural athleticism, not the bravest soldier in the fort, and he plays in midfield!! 5 years on and there are still wildly different views as to what he is. 

Regardless of whether people think he is a DM or not, (trust me though, he isn't), he plays in that position on the pitch. Directly in front of the centre-backs. And you shouldn't have to have other players selected to cover for him and do his share of defending and protecting the back four.

In European games. He looks better and generally is better. More time, more space, less high-tempo pressing, less intensity. Generally totally different to the whirlwind of the EPL.

 

Here’s something I’m always slightly puzzled by and keen to get thoughts. This isn’t loaded at all - I genuinely don’t understand it. So - a player is suited to Europe but not the EPL? In Jorginho’s case - he’s too slow for the prem, but not for Europe.

Now, let’s say you’re the manager of a European team about to face Chelsea in the CL. Couldn’t you just watch a couple of videos of Jorgi in the prem and say: “ok, ragazzi, Jorginho got taken apart by x bottom of league side, so here’s what we will do…”

is it the refereeing? Is it that you can’t employ those tactics without compromising your overall game? I mean - the players aren’t any less athletic in Europe on the whole. Open to views on this.

I tend to think a good player should be able to cut it in any league. I remember people had doubts about Zola in the prem before he arrived 😂 🤡 

1 hour ago, Dean said:

The direct translation, as you probably know, is “director”. Whether this is appropriate or not… 🤷‍♂️. I’m still kind of bemused as to how much airtime Jorgi gets, yet here I am.

@Bob starkresponded to my earlier observation on it with good answers, but he STILL doesn’t seem like a player that should generate so much controversy. examples of players I think of as controversial:

Ibrahimovic

Neymar

Xhaka

Balotelli

Gazza

There’s usually some sort of conflict between clear talent and attitude / mental stability. Jorginho though… again 🤷‍♂️ 

The above named players have their ego/mentality questioned.

Jorginho gets his ability questioned.