4 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

So my point stands. Name another better DM available. Comments were made pre-WC so don't even bother trying to say Enzo. 

 

What you fail to realise is that so does mine, very much so that I'm now looking forward to see us signing Rice, just so that your little thesis about how we will automatically challenge for the league title is put to the test.

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

What you fail to realise is that so does mine, very much so that I'm now looking forward to see us signing Rice, just so that your little thesis about how we will automatically challenge for the league title is put to the test.

Where have i said this? 

Upgrading one position doesn't mean challenge City yet. Certainly a start though.

Just now, RIP Mourinho said:

Where have i said this? 

Upgrading one position doesn't mean challenge City yet. Certainly a start though.

You can't backtrack now, it's all done. Let's see if we can challenge for the league title with Rice automatically after Jorginho leaves. I'm looking forward to see how you will post in his thread after every match as well, keep up the same standard you had for Jorginho, if you can LOL

6 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Where have i said this? 

Upgrading one position doesn't mean challenge City yet. Certainly a start though.

You've been telling us for the last two years he's a massive upgrade.

So he has to beat Jorginho's best achievements in each respective competition, no excuses.

8 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

You can't backtrack now, it's all done. Let's see if we can challenge for the league title with Rice automatically after Jorginho leaves. I'm looking forward to see how you will post in his thread after every match as well, keep up the same standard you had for Jorginho, if you can LOL

It's hilarious, just like Lukaku all over again, constantly being told how great he'll be but when it comes to actually holding him to those standards it's excuse after excuse after excuse.

1 hour ago, Argo said:

Does anyone actually think he's world class? The people on here that seem to rate him the most are also desperate to see us sign Enzo. If it weren't for the bashing he has been getting pretty much since Lampard was sacked (such that wasn't even relaxed after the UCL win) I'd barely even bother commenting on this thread.

I would say it's actually Mount that falls into the category of your last paragraph. To use the most extreme examples I've seen comments that we should build the team around him (we shouldn't) to the opposite extreme that he wouldn't even get into Everton's team (would walk into it).

Hmmm jorgi is being compared to the like or rodri busquets. If I am not wrong you compared him to Thiago. If you want to be compared with these players, clearly you have to be wc. 

Hmm, I don't think Mason fan including me think that he is wc and more importantly what do you mean building around Mount. 

1 minute ago, Bob stark said:

Hmmm jorgi is being compared to the like or rodri busquets. If I am not wrong you compared him to Thiago. If you want to be compared with these players, clearly you have to be wc. 

Only in the sense that that type of player has tended to be slated constantly, as i explained at the time.

Busquets is actually another example of that point, people thought Pep was a mad man dropping both Yaya and Keita to put Busquets that position.

4 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Hmm, I don't think Mason fan including me think that he is wc and more importantly what do you mean building around Mount. 

It was more a throwaway comment i saw around a week ago, possibly on here.

12 minutes ago, Argo said:

It's hilarious, just like Lukaku all over again, constantly being told how great he'll be but when it comes to actually holding him to those standards it's excuse after excuse after excuse.

Yeap. It's going to go from the argument of Jorginho is holding us back to Rice needs a better squad around him in no time!

7 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Hmmm jorgi is being compared to the like or rodri busquets. If I am not wrong you compared him to Thiago. If you want to be compared with these players, clearly you have to be wc. 

Hmm, I don't think Mason fan including me think that he is wc and more importantly what do you mean building around Mount. 

Busquets is the player that Jorginho is the most comparable to. You can argue that Busquets is better and for sure he does have more skill but they do the same role for their teams. Make of that what you will, Jorginho has been a system player his whole career and those that played against him at the highest level did express that it's at the very least difficult to break down that system in which he plays a vital part.

9 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Yeap. It's going to go from the argument of Jorginho is holding us back to Rice needs a better squad around him in no time!

I'm a bit confused on this rice debate. 

He's clearly an upgrade on Jorginho right now. Whether he's a game changer I don't know. But he's stronger, faster, better passer, dribbler than Jorginho. 

What is he lacking? 

(And if I'm wrong, and rice joins and looks sh*t. Then he's just sh*t. I don't know why anyone would defend him. He's a DM)

Edited January 17, 20233 yr by bisright1

8 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

I'm a bit confused on this rice debate. 

He's clearly an upgrade on Jorginho right now. Whether he's a game changer I don't know. But he's stronger, faster, better passer, dribbler than Jorginho. 

What is he lacking? 

(And if I'm wrong, and rice joins and looks sh*t. Then he's just sh*t. I don't know why anyone would defend him. He's a DM)

Because even when Jorginho was helping us win the UCL we were being told he was a major liability and Rice was a huge upgrade.

Now I've brought up actually holding him to those standards the excuses are rather predictably flooding in.

My main worries with him are (similar to Lukaku) in that he's not suited to this system and whether his mindset will adapt to playing for a big club (the excuses he rolled out on international duty after the nations league relegation and the world cup exit suggest not).

Edited January 17, 20233 yr by Argo

Jorginho had a real purple patch those first 6 months under Tuchel. Aside from that I don’t think he’s been good for how the team play. 

All our managers have set up the team to try and protect him, even Tuchel picked 3 at the back partly to protect J5. 

28 minutes ago, Argo said:

Because even when Jorginho was helping us win the UCL we were being told he was a major liability and Rice was a huge upgrade.

Now I've brought up actually holding him to those standards the excuses are rather predictably flooding in.

My main worries with him are (similar to Lukaku) in that he's not suited to this system and whether his mindset will adapt to playing for a big club (the excuses he rolled out on international duty after the nations league relegation and the world cup exit suggest not).

I thought Rice was class in the world cup. I think the last year he's become the player we need. Before that, not so much.

44 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

I'm a bit confused on this rice debate. 

He's clearly an upgrade on Jorginho right now. Whether he's a game changer I don't know. But he's stronger, faster, better passer, dribbler than Jorginho. 

What is he lacking? 

(And if I'm wrong, and rice joins and looks sh*t. Then he's just sh*t. I don't know why anyone would defend him. He's a DM)

The whole debate is that there is this sentiment about how as soon as we replace Jorginho we would be challenging for league titles, thus comes in Rice as this perfect midfielder. So let's see if that is true shall we, if we actually can challange for the title with Rice since apparently if you ask some people here they will tell you that Jorginho has been holding us back as the sole reason why we were unable to win any league titles.

Nothing breaks up the monotony of a Tuesday morning in the office quite like sitting down with a cup of coffee and catching up on ~4 pages of heated arguments about a player who... *checks notes* played perfectly fine in a 1-0 win? Wait that can't be right...

6 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

I thought Rice was class in the world cup. I think the last year he's become the player we need. Before that, not so much.

If we were reverting to a more counter system maybe (but even then I'll have mentality doubts) but I remember watching him closely in the build up play which solidified my opinion even more, he was practically hiding when Stones and Maguire were trying to play out.

16 hours ago, Bob stark said:

You can argue influence all you like but there is a reason it was always Jorginho + one Kante/Kovacic 

Last time we won the league though, which was also the last time we were competitive domestically for a full season, it was Kante + Matic.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I know we signed Jorginho after this.

I'm just trying to illustrate that we won the league playing a ball winning box to box midfielder, and a pure DM. (With Cesc coming off the bench occasionally, God I miss Cesc). We haven't really had a proper DM since (of a high enough standard anyway), whether you rate J5 or not, I think we can all agree he's not a "pure DM", he's more a tempo setter, a "regista" if you will.

I don't really get why the debate is Rice (or any other DM) OR Jorginho. They play different positions, depending on our system there may be room for both.

Not only that, but wouldn't it be nice to be able to rotate our CMs instead of being forced to play whoever's fit 90% of the time? Maybe that way Jorginho would be utitlised mostly in games where his skillset is needed/additive, and less so in games where it's not. He'd probably be less polarizing if he hadn't been one of only 3 options for most of his time with us.

Jorginho is the very epitome of a player type not suited to the EPL. Small, lightweight, no pace, no natural athleticism, not the bravest soldier in the fort, and he plays in midfield!! 5 years on and there are still wildly different views as to what he is. 

Regardless of whether people think he is a DM or not, (trust me though, he isn't), he plays in that position on the pitch. Directly in front of the centre-backs. And you shouldn't have to have other players selected to cover for him and do his share of defending and protecting the back four.

In European games. He looks better and generally is better. More time, more space, less high-tempo pressing, less intensity. Generally totally different to the whirlwind of the EPL.

 

4 hours ago, Gol15 said:

You can't backtrack now, it's all done. Let's see if we can challenge for the league title with Rice automatically after Jorginho leaves. I'm looking forward to see how you will post in his thread after every match as well, keep up the same standard you had for Jorginho, if you can LOL

You do realise to backtrack i have to have said it first, right? 

Jorginho won the CL with us at 29, Rice has 5 years to do that. Anything higher than 72 points in his first season is also an upgrade. 

Hope you understand this, let me know if you want me to break it down further for you.

3 hours ago, Argo said:

You've been telling us for the last two years he's a massive upgrade.

So he has to beat Jorginho's best achievements in each respective competition, no excuses.

That's fine, see my post above to Gol. 

3 hours ago, Argo said:

Only in the sense that that type of player has tended to be slated constantly, as i explained at the time.

Busquets is actually another example of that point, people thought Pep was a mad man dropping both Yaya and Keita to put Busquets that position.

Every rival fan quite rightly regards Busquets as one of the best 6's in the game, 5 years in the Prem and Jorginho still has managers targeting him for his weaknesses. The two can't even slightly be compared. Comments like this is why no one takes J5 stans serious, you do more harm to the player by making stupid comparisons and holding him to a standard he isn't at. 

Does anyone else here not know what the f*** a "regista" is? All these fandangled descriptions for positions on the pitch is bemusing lol. I think that's why many people get confused by what Jorginho's job is to do in the team. 

3 hours ago, Gol15 said:

The whole debate is that there is this sentiment about how as soon as we replace Jorginho we would be challenging for league titles, thus comes in Rice as this perfect midfielder. So let's see if that is true shall we, if we actually can challange for the title with Rice since apparently if you ask some people here they will tell you that Jorginho has been holding us back as the sole reason why we were unable to win any league titles.

You're literally the only one quoting this. 

Someone can be an upgrade in a position without transforming the entire team into the greatest squad that ever existed. 

28 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

You do realise to backtrack i have to have said it first, right? 

Jorginho won the CL with us at 29, Rice has 5 years to do that. Anything higher than 72 points in his first season is also an upgrade. 

Hope you understand this, let me know if you want me to break it down further for you.

So now you not only backtrack but also want to include their age difference? Funny, I thought you said 100 times that as soon as we stop playing Jorginho we would be challenging for the league title, wouldn't it only be even more obvious if we have Rice that is according to you, the best possible signing we could ever get?

Like I said, let's put your theory to the test, let's get your own personal pick, the best possible signing for that position that, according to you is Rice. Let's see if he can also just come here and finish top 3 in his first season, if he's that much better than it should be possible. Let's hold him to that standard that you said, that we won things despite of having Jorginho and not because, by that logic having someone that is so good according to you, could only be a positive thing... Or are you already afraid of the prospect of Rice failing?

Edited January 17, 20233 yr by Gol15