2 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

Domestically, we haven't won a trophy for 5 seasons. Last one was the FA Cup win under Conte. Sounds worse than it is due to the 5 lost finals, but all that notwithstanding, we've finished 3rd, 4th, 4th and 3rd in the four seasons before this one, so to fall off the way we have this season is a stunning decline in standards. We were in 4th after the first 10 games this season as well ... literally relegation form since that point though ... 

To be honest, brutally honest, we won the title under Conte due to Liverpool and City being poor that season. Pep had just joined City and Liverpool were still newly together. A season or two later and we finish 5th with the same team under Conte, compounded by not buying good players to strengthen that summer, then look what happens - Liverpool and City go on to be the two most dominant domestic clubs up until now. As much as that league win under Conte was great, it was also during a period when things just worked out for us.

These are the realities and context of our trophy wins in recent seasons. The CL win was during covid lockdown, City/Pep bottled that final. We were fortunate to have not played the likes of Bayern or PSG too. I'm feeling angrier and frustrated today and finally need to air the real truths about our success in recent seasons because it's been like a sticking plaster over a wound that's been increasing in size for the last decade. We haven't looked as dominant or well put together domestically as Liverpool or City, not for a long time.

We need to realise we aren't a top club any longer, nor a serious title threat. We need to push back the ego and understand this is going to take far longer than a season to fix. Pochettino might not be the right guy, I've literally no idea at this point who would be. He might work out, he may not, but I'm honestly deflated by it all. Get in Pochettino, Enrique, Nagelsman, Mourinho, who the f**k cares at this point, it's not possible to know what will happen with this group of players and ownership. 

Edited April 27, 20233 yr by enigma

 

27 minutes ago, enigma said:

We need to realise we aren't a top club any longer

Get out of here with that, we bloody are.

Went toe to toe with the giants of Europe for two consecutive seasons before this one, winning it once. Competing for every domestic cup and if not for a terribly long list of events we'd have been competing for the league title last season as well on top of everything else.

To the extent we stop being a top club it will be Boehly & the greaseballs fault. I genuinely can't stand them and they are the root of everything that's wrong at the club at the moment. If they have the support of one supporter that loves this club that would astonish me, absolute leeches.

 

2 hours ago, strider6004 said:

Fans did not like Sarri and our generational superstar in Hazard was not performing well within Sarri's system.

I do think Sarri was decent though Higuain was a major error.

We may not even score again this season, the football 'gods' are pissed off with Boehly and Co trying to pull a fast one with amortisation if so should clear once we have a sell out and are back on terms with FFP. Football can be a strange game at times.

 

Not so sure about that, Hazard was involved in 49% of our goals be it scoring or assisting. Sarri never really cut like a figure who wanted to be here and took the option of getting back to Italy prompto. Maybe it was the fans not being enamored with him or more likely he knew there was a transfer ban coupled with the loss of Hazard imminent and maybe he felt he had taken us as far as he could.

3 minutes ago, OriginalS said:

Get out of here with that, we bloody are.

Went toe to toe with the giants of Europe for two consecutive seasons before this one, winning it once. Competing for every domestic cup and if not for a terribly long list of events we'd have been competing for the league title last season as well on top of everything else.

To the extent we stop being a top club it will be Boehly & the greaseballs fault. I genuinely can't stand them and they are the root of everything that's wrong at the club at the moment. If they have the support of one supporter that loves this club that would astonish me, absolute leeches.

 

An elite club challenge for the title every season. We have struggled to challenge for top four in the last 5 seasons. I stand by my comment mate. 

27 minutes ago, enigma said:

To be honest, brutally honest, we won the title under Conte due to Liverpool and City being poor that season. Pep had just joined City and Liverpool were still newly together. A season or two later and we finish 5th with the same team under Conte, compounded by not buying good players to strengthen that summer, then look what happens - Liverpool and City go on to be the two most dominant domestic clubs up until now. As much as that league win under Conte was great, it was also during a period when things just worked out for us.

These are the realities and context of our trophy wins in recent seasons. The CL win was during covid lockdown, City/Pep bottled that final. We were fortunate to have not played the likes of Bayern or PSG too. I'm feeling angrier and frustrated today and finally need to air the real truths about our success in recent seasons because it's been like a sticking plaster over a wound that's been increasing in size for the last decade. We haven't looked as dominant or well put together domestically as Liverpool or City, not for a long time.

We need to realise we aren't a top club any longer, nor a serious title threat. We need to push back the ego and understand this is going to take far longer than a season to fix. Pochettino might not be the right guy, I've literally no idea at this point who would be. He might work out, he may not, but I'm honestly deflated by it all. Get in Pochettino, Enrique, Nagelsman, Mourinho, who the f**k cares at this point, it's not possible to know what will happen with this group of players and ownership. 

Jesus Christ would struggle motivating this lot 😁

33 minutes ago, enigma said:

To be honest, brutally honest, we won the title under Conte due to Liverpool and City being poor that season. Pep had just joined City and Liverpool were still newly together. A season or two later and we finish 5th with the same team under Conte, compounded by not buying good players to strengthen that summer, then look what happens - Liverpool and City go on to be the two most dominant domestic clubs up until now. As much as that league win under Conte was great, it was also during a period when things just worked out for us.

These are the realities and context of our trophy wins in recent seasons. The CL win was during covid lockdown, City/Pep bottled that final. We were fortunate to have not played the likes of Bayern or PSG too. I'm feeling angrier and frustrated today and finally need to air the real truths about our success in recent seasons because it's been like a sticking plaster over a wound that's been increasing in size for the last decade. We haven't looked as dominant or well put together domestically as Liverpool or City, not for a long time.

We need to realise we aren't a top club any longer, nor a serious title threat. We need to push back the ego and understand this is going to take far longer than a season to fix. Pochettino might not be the right guy, I've literally no idea at this point who would be. He might work out, he may not, but I'm honestly deflated by it all. Get in Pochettino, Enrique, Nagelsman, Mourinho, who the f**k cares at this point, it's not possible to know what will happen with this group of players and ownership. 

The team that wins the title does so totally on merit, no ifs buts or maybe's! What happened afterward with the transfer window none of us will ever know except it was shambolic and who truly was to blame.

As for not being a top club anymore, our position in footballs rich list begs to differ. How we spend the money and run the club is the question and based on what we are seeing from the outside it would appear not very well. The collapse after game 10 is virtually unprecedented for a club of our size and warrants a very serious review as to why we have displayed relegation form since then.

13 minutes ago, enigma said:

An elite club challenge for the title every season. We have struggled to challenge for top four in the last 5 seasons. I stand by my comment mate. 

So ManU are no longer an elite club? 

13 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

If Pochettino can get this lot to 7th next season, I will forget all about his Tottenham history. He'll have my full support going forward.

If you would then fair play, but history suggests not enough would.

I can already see the "it's not that much better than last season is it?" arguments already.

11 hours ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

I agree with everything you said except the Sarri part. I agree with the general idea that we should stick with managers if they are building something but I don't think Sarri's style of football is sustainable in the PL. Just like Lukaku can score 30+ in Serie A, that's probably why Sarri's football is working in the Serie A. 

What I mean by sustainable is it doesn't have that low a way to drop. Even at it's most boring it was getting decent results, controlling most games and even if he couldn't get the athestics right eventually (which I think he would have and he was showing signs of starting to do) he left the foundations of a modern system (controlling games, playing out under pressure) for another manager to build on.

6 hours ago, Dean said:

Good post. But how do you expect the fans to accept a process as you put it? Everything you say confirms my feeling that we - the fans - are the biggest problem and nothing will be resolved until that changes. 

I think that's a big problem to be honest, even forgetting Sarri it took the UCL win for many to be won round by Tuchel (if you go back to his thread and the matchday threads of his early time you'd see debates on whether he's even improved Lampard ball or whether he'd be sacked if we lost the final) and I think it would take something equally as extreme for Pochettino, or pretty much any non "Chelsea man" for that matter.

I think the only way we have a chance of successfully doing the process we desperately need is by someone the fans have an affinity towards overseeing it and them knowing what they're doing alongside themselves having the patience themselves to not panic through the roadbumps. The only person who I can think of that could fall into all those categories is Crespo.

11 hours ago, Jezz said:

A very thought provoking post. 

I agree with much of these problems pre-dating the current ownership, but it's been exacerbated by their actions this season.

You might have a point on the short term solutions of Mourinho and Conte, but I wouldn't trade those PL titles for anything. They were worth bringing in for that success alone.

Sorry forgot to quote this post.

I know it sounds a bit spoilt talking about titles like that but the 2015 one was basically a trade with the future, many of our problems started by just zoning in on that one without factoring any need to keep a sustainable approach (which included making Hazard play through an injury which basically wrote him off the following season, or squeezing every last but of juice out of Terry Matic and Ivan that rendered them next to useless after that).

The 2017 one was a bit different as the 'damage' was already done, it was after that title we made the problem worse by letting Conte load up all that rubbish on the squad.

But I honestly wouldn't want a repeat of that today if it comes with all the cons afterwards. I mean I say that if we're going to be a mess for the next decade i guess it's better than nothing but I'd rather build something to a point that when we do challenge/win again it's sustainable for a number of years (like it was Mou 1.0). The last three title defenses have been campaigns of almost exclusive abject misery.

Edited April 27, 20233 yr by Argo

I think we can really push for relegation next season under the new ownership.

How deep can you go Todd ?

55 minutes ago, charierre said:

So ManU are no longer an elite club? 

The only reason they are still classed as one is due to their standing historically. I do not considered them a big club over the last decade, no. They have poor recent success.

At least Liverpool have won a CL and league trophy in the last few years, before that they wouldn't have been regarded as a big club due to their limited success. We have won nothing domestically for five seasons so i cannot class us as a big club domestically. 

Edited April 27, 20233 yr by enigma

38 minutes ago, Argo said:

Sorry forgot to quote this post.

I know it sounds a bit spoilt talking about titles like that but the 2015 one was basically a trade with the future, many of our problems started by just zoning in on that one without factoring any need to keep a sustainable approach (which included making Hazard play through an injury which basically wrote him off the following season, or squeezing every last but of juice out of Terry Matic and Ivan that rendered them next to useless after that).

The 2017 one was a bit different as the 'damage' was already done, it was after that title we made the problem worse by letting Conte load up all that rubbish on the squad.

But I honestly wouldn't want a repeat of that today if it comes with all the cons afterwards. I mean I say that if we're going to be a mess for the next decade i guess it's better than nothing but I'd rather build something to a point that when we do challenge/win again it's sustainable for a number of years (like it was Mou 1.0). The last three title defenses have been campaigns of almost exclusive abject misery.

A mess for a decade if that did happen we would be miles behind the elite clubs. I agree with everything you say but our off field problems are going to get worse. If the Bridge is rebuilt 5 years at Wembley will have a devastating effect on the club and fans. I've mentioned it in the new ground thread but mid table mediocrity means playing at Wembley in front of crowds of about 30,000 for some games I don't know who would decide ticketing about playing someone like Grimsby in the league cup I could see them having a third of the attendance if it's about £50 to get in.

8 minutes ago, coco said:

I think we can really push for relegation next season under the new ownership.

How deep can you go Todd ?

Lets be honest, the only reason we didn't under Mourinho when he returned is because we'd won the league the season before and still had top quality players. This current side is lacking in quality, especially up top and creatively. Back then we had Hazard, Fabregas and Costa to dig us out the sh*t. To a smaller extent even Willian and Pedro.

Edited April 27, 20233 yr by enigma

2 minutes ago, enigma said:

The only reason they are still classed as one is due to their standing historically. I do not considered them a big club over the last decade, no. They have poor recent success.

At least Liverpool have won a CL and league trophy in the last few years, before that they wouldn't have been regarded as a big club due to their limited success. 

That's ridiculous they are far the biggest club in the country and one of the biggest in the world. Success isn't down to how big a club is it helps but it's not the defining factor.

1 minute ago, bluehaze said:

That's ridiculous they are far the biggest club in the country and one of the biggest in the world. Success isn't down to how big a club is it helps but it's not the defining factor.

Without their trophies won under Ferguson between '00 and 2012, Utd wouldn't be near the size of club they are going by their achievements since Fergie retired. 

1 hour ago, enigma said:

To be honest, brutally honest, we won the title under Conte due to Liverpool and City being poor that season. Pep had just joined City and Liverpool were still newly together. A season or two later and we finish 5th with the same team under Conte, compounded by not buying good players to strengthen that summer, then look what happens - Liverpool and City go on to be the two most dominant domestic clubs up until now. As much as that league win under Conte was great, it was also during a period when things just worked out for us.

These are the realities and context of our trophy wins in recent seasons. The CL win was during covid lockdown, City/Pep bottled that final. We were fortunate to have not played the likes of Bayern or PSG too. I'm feeling angrier and frustrated today and finally need to air the real truths about our success in recent seasons because it's been like a sticking plaster over a wound that's been increasing in size for the last decade. We haven't looked as dominant or well put together domestically as Liverpool or City, not for a long time.

We need to realise we aren't a top club any longer, nor a serious title threat. We need to push back the ego and understand this is going to take far longer than a season to fix. Pochettino might not be the right guy, I've literally no idea at this point who would be. He might work out, he may not, but I'm honestly deflated by it all. Get in Pochettino, Enrique, Nagelsman, Mourinho, who the f**k cares at this point, it's not possible to know what will happen with this group of players and ownership. 

Agree with a lot of things. Winning the odd title here and there has made you look more well-run than you've actually been for at least ten years.

But that you are not a "top club" anymore is bollocks. I don't think any of us neutrals see it that way.

Okay, other than in Africa, you are not like Barca, Real or Manchester United in the sense that hundreds of millions of kids dream about playing for you one day, because you never had any Ronaldo/Messi/Ronaldinho/Beckham level of superstars, but you are still massively attractive to any player or manager who wants to play in a top club.

You will also compete in the top of the league sooner rather than later, it is nearly inevitable with your resources. Problem for you is that it seems it will be through sheer buying power and fluke rather than actual planning, which means any success won't be consistent. 

14 minutes ago, bluehaze said:

A mess for a decade if that did happen we would be miles behind the elite clubs. I agree with everything you say but our off field problems are going to get worse. If the Bridge is rebuilt 5 years at Wembley will have a devastating effect on the club and fans. I've mentioned it in the new ground thread but mid table mediocrity means playing at Wembley in front of crowds of about 30,000 for some games I don't know who would decide ticketing about playing someone like Grimsby in the league cup I could see them having a third of the attendance if it's about £50 to get in.

That's why for me the decisions have got to be based on building a sustainable blueprint. I know you aren't a fan of these type of underlying stuff but for the next couple of years we really have to look deeper than just the results when accessing our progress.

For all the mistakes made I do believe we have a good base. While on the inexperienced side a little a defense of James, Fofana, Colwill and Chilwell is elite potential under the right coach and a solid midfielder to go with Enzo and hopefully Kante then we can compete with most in those two areas. The problem is behind and infront them which is why we will still probably see games we dominate and don't get the result we deserve for a while and the only way either will be fixed in the long run is by time and good coaching.

21 minutes ago, enigma said:

Without their trophies won under Ferguson between '00 and 2012, Utd wouldn't be near the size of club they are going by their achievements since Fergie retired. 

They won the treble in 99 for God's sake but saying if they didn't win those trophies doesn't carry water cause they did. Man United are the biggest club in England and have been since the Munich air crash that is undeniable. Forest won the European Cup two years in a row and were never even then considered to be a big club.

16 minutes ago, Argo said:

That's why for me the decisions have got to be based on building a sustainable blueprint. I know you aren't a fan of these type of underlying stuff but for the next couple of years we really have to look deeper than just the results when accessing our progress.

For all the mistakes made I do believe we have a good base. While on the inexperienced side a little a defense of James, Fofana, Colwill and Chilwell is elite potential under the right coach and a solid midfielder to go with Enzo and hopefully Kante then we can compete with most in those two areas. The problem is behind and infront them which is why we will still probably see games we dominate and don't get the result we deserve for a while and the only way either will be fixed in the long run is by time and good coaching.

Enzo and Kante are hardly dominating under Lampard though. It really looked better under Potter (why the hello Kante isnt playing DM/box to box now is beyond me) 

Kante is basically playing RW under Lampard for some reason.

44 minutes ago, bluehaze said:

They won the treble in 99 for God's sake but saying if they didn't win those trophies doesn't carry water cause they did. Man United are the biggest club in England and have been since the Munich air crash that is undeniable. Forest won the European Cup two years in a row and were never even then considered to be a big club.

But Man Utd haven't been competitive on the level  they were since Fergie retired. Also, during the early to mid 00s they had Ronaldo who definitely help make them even bigger in status.

Not to mention they poached players from other rivals. Now they cannot do that any more, well, maybe they will with Kane who knows, but their dominance has been non existent since Fergie.

It shows the benefits of having stability, good youth and being fortunate in a period of time where things went for you as a club. Man Utd had the right coach with the right players, at the right time in football history. I suppose it's sort of similar to Roman choosing us to invest in over Tottenham or Arsenal etc. 

Edited April 27, 20233 yr by enigma

4 minutes ago, Zeta said:

Kante is basically playing RW under Lampard for some reason.

An attack of Gallagher + Sterling with Kante in support. It just genuinely makes you wonder if Lampard is on the windup. 

We move the transition the ball still incredibly slow and not enough players make themselves available through the channels/between the lines. I call it the U shaped attack. 

3 hours ago, OriginalS said:

Get out of here with that, we bloody are.

Went toe to toe with the giants of Europe for two consecutive seasons before this one, winning it once. Competing for every domestic cup and if not for a terribly long list of events we'd have been competing for the league title last season as well on top of everything else.

To the extent we stop being a top club it will be Boehly & the greaseballs fault. I genuinely can't stand them and they are the root of everything that's wrong at the club at the moment. If they have the support of one supporter that loves this club that would astonish me, absolute leeches.

 

I'm convinced that bloke is a rival fan, always slags off our achievements and suddenly he's the biggest supporter of one of our worst managers we've had here. 

I've seen him play down our title wins and champions league wins yet he has about 10000000 excuses as to why Potter couldn't buy a goal or win as manager. Very strange "fan". 

5 hours ago, charierre said:

Not so sure about that, Hazard was involved in 49% of our goals be it scoring or assisting. Sarri never really cut like a figure who wanted to be here and took the option of getting back to Italy prompto. Maybe it was the fans not being enamored with him or more likely he knew there was a transfer ban coupled with the loss of Hazard imminent and maybe he felt he had taken us as far as he could.

I recall Sarri playing him as no.9 as he wanted all our players to press and No.9 was the only position that could be free from pressing re Sarri.

Hazard scored first game in that position yet was abandoned after a few a games as he was being kicked to shreds.