1 minute ago, Ernie_blue said:

Tbh it was a awful decision to play Dave rwb in the first place and James was playing well. Dave offers nothing in an attacking sense so that was quite an easy sub to make. 

But still not a sub he would have made if he was being biased against the youngsters.

It reminds me of when Sarri was apparently only picking Ruben and Callum out of duress.

Just now, Argo said:

But still not a sub he would have made if he was being biased against the youngsters.

It reminds me of when Sarri was apparently only picking Ruben and Callum out of duress.

Im not sure why any manager would have kept Dave on instead of James because Dave offers nothing offensively, we was handicaped from the start so when your chasing the game why would you still handicap yourself even more.

1 hour ago, charierre said:

We were 5 points behind. Look how fast Liverpool have turned that around. You still haven't taken onboard that you have used the term 'choked' for other teams from previous seasons whilst failing to acknowledge if we don't now get top four we will have bottled it. Make no mistake if we end up with nothing at the end of the season it is on the team and the manager having got ourselves into a more favourable position. As I said, he as yet has not yet found a way around beating teams who set up to defend deep, this is a problem that has been evident all season.  

Ok I can take that on board. Let me clarify. If we are to lose every game starting with Arsenal through the end of the season, I won’t have much of a leg to stand on and will concede that we choked, bottled it or whatever you want to call it. 

But short of that outcome, there are grey areas and it’s not clear cut to me that not finishing in the top 4 will necessarily mean we choked. It might. But there are scenarios where it wouldn’t. As you say, “look how fast Liverpool turned it around”.  Ok. Did we choke then or did Liverpool find another gear, having an outstanding run in?  
 

Now consider this scenario: we draw with Leicester and thump Villa. But we don’t make 4th if (last time I checked) Liverpool and Leicester win their other games (correct me if I’m wrong). Did we choke in this scenario or did Liverpool and Leicester just have a brilliant run-in?
 

Now let’s add another dimension. In the hypothetical Leicester draw, we totally outplay them, have way more chances, a disallowed goal and two clear cut pens that aren’t given. Will we have choked or will we have just had really bad luck when it mattered?

All I’m saying really is that just because we were 3rd by the tiniest margin for a week only to finish in 5th, also by the tiniest margin... that alone wouldn’t constitute failure. It might. But whether it did or not would depend to a degree on how we got there and (importantly) how Liverpool and Leicester beat us to it, so I have tried to outline those scenarios. Hope it’s clear. 

12 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

So many criticism on Tuchel which is weird because honestly yesterday's game was pretty much our typical performance under Tuchel.

It's not weird, we just lost to Arsenstoke and Leicester in the cup final, without scoring a single goal. Of course Tommy must take the wrap for fielding weakened teams in both games. 

9 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

 

 

This transfer window coming up will be huge in terms of if we get our investment right not necessarily over paying just getting in the right profile of players we will thrive under Tuchel. I'll say again I know a few disagree but if Hazard is on the market which I'm hearing he is we should take a nice cut deal if he wants to return. Even if he plays a bit part role like Bale, trust me when I say he still has it and just needs fitness the form will follow. 

We don't have a top 5 player in their position in attack other than arguably Pulisic and Mount and it is costing us in the long run. When a world class player is available buy now ask questions later.

Hazard ship has sailed, you can forget about it. 

Our problem under Tuchel is simple, we can't break teams down. There are two simple ways to do that :

1. Be more clinical/sign a clinical player 

2. Sign a creator 

We pretty much did both under Mou by signing fab n costa. 

If we can sign fab n costa again, then it is problem solved. Since we have so many attackers and Tuchel consider Werner as our main guy, it is difficult to see us signing another st. 

A very good creative midfielder on the other will help us a lot. 

 

 

Tuchel has built his side around the foundation of being defensively solid which has helped to mask our short fallings in attack. We've struggled to score since Tuchel arrived. 

For the last 3 games we've conceded first. If not for Aguero uncharacteristically making a dogs dinner of a penalty we could well have been starring at 3 losses on the bounce. 

The foundation of our strength has eroded. 

Tuchel's got to do something or our season risks imploding. 

Just now, ForeverCarefree said:

The foundation of our strength has eroded. 

No it hasn't.

Despite being unlucky and losing we have still been extremely solid defensively.

Arsenal didn't have a sniff and we gifted them the goal. Leicester barely had a sniff either and scored from their one effort at goal.

I am still fully confident we are a top side defensively.

14 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Genuine question, what fluid interchanging attacking football have you been watching? We have been awful to watch for the most part under TT minus a few exceptions ala Madrid & City but mostly it is very boring and we just pass the ball about in front of the opposition. It’s not about Abraham being as good as Haaland - it’s about having someone in the team who can score goals and he’s the best player in the club at the moment at doing it.

This is something i wonder too, i personally think the football has been awful. TT is also too obsessed with 3 at the back.

We lost the last two games not because we were outplayed or out tactics by Arsenal or Leicester, we lost because of a bad back pass, a wonderstrike and we can't seem to finish our chances now. We also had bad luck with VAR in both games.

Tuchel has been rotating since Day 1, every game he's rotating, people say play our best XI when we never had a regular starting XI all season long.

Yesterday Ziyech deserve his start because of two good games against City, Kepa deserve his start because he didnt allowed a goal in his last 6-7 games if you exclude the Arsenal game (and he saved our ass against Bristol city), i would have started Chilwell but i saw nobody complaining about Alonso before the game and lets not act like Chilwell was in great form either people where bashing him in the Arsenal game day thread.

Gilmour started 3 games in a row against Fulham, City and Arsenal all very important games but Tuchel doesnt trust the youth ? He always picks Reece and Mount and you can count Havertz as well if we consider the non Academy players.

Abraham is weird one, yes he scores goals but often against poor opposition ( i know every goal matters), i just think he doesnt fit Tuchel philosphy and remember that theres a contract renewal going on behind the scenes so maybe it affects Tammy as well.

To be honest i think the team is just very tired, the Real Madrid tie really took a lot of energy it seems and we just hit a run of bad luck.

5 minutes ago, coco said:

It's not weird, we just lost to Arsenstoke and Leicester in the cup final, without scoring a single goal. Of course Tommy must take the wrap for fielding weakened teams in both games. 

Yes these criticisms on selection are totally legit in my view, and are another factor I would point to in the event that we fail to make top 4 or win a final (above response to @charierre). I view this as something different to “choking” or “bottling it”.

11 minutes ago, Dean said:

Ok I can take that on board. Let me clarify. If we are to lose every game starting with Arsenal through the end of the season, I won’t have much of a leg to stand on and will concede that we choked, bottled it or whatever you want to call it. 

But short of that outcome, there are grey areas and it’s not clear cut to me that not finishing in the top 4 will necessarily mean we choked. It might. But there are scenarios where it wouldn’t. As you say, “look how fast Liverpool turned it around”.  Ok. Did we choke then or did Liverpool find another gear, having an outstanding run in?  
 

Now consider this scenario: we draw with Leicester and thump Villa. But we don’t make 4th if (last time I checked) Liverpool and Leicester win their other games (correct me if I’m wrong). Did we choke in this scenario or did Liverpool and Leicester just have a brilliant run-in?
 

Now let’s add another dimension. In the hypothetical Leicester draw, we totally outplay them, have way more chances, a disallowed goal and two clear cut pens that aren’t given. Will we have choked or will we have just had really bad luck when it mattered?

All I’m saying really is that just because we were 3rd by the tiniest margin for a week only to finish in 5th, also by the tiniest margin... that alone wouldn’t constitute failure. It might. But whether it did or not would depend to a degree on how we got there and (importantly) how Liverpool and Leicester beat us to it, so I have tried to outline those scenarios. Hope it’s clear. 

It all margins Dean I was going from your initial post that stated we got top four cos others choked, which is the same scenario we could find ourselves in. Our destiny is totally in our own hands and before the Gooners game was very much so. For the record I expect us to win both. If we fail it will be a bottle job. I’m purposely steering clear of the finals as those are one off games. 

26 minutes ago, coco said:

It's not weird, we just lost to Arsenstoke and Leicester in the cup final, without scoring a single goal. Of course Tommy must take the wrap for fielding weakened teams in both games. 

Not sure it was weakened too much though. He couldn't play the same lineup every 3 days. 

Other than Gilmour n kepa, pretty much all of the players that started against arse and Leicester are regular under Tuchel. 

 

24 minutes ago, Sindre said:

No it hasn't.

Arsenal didn't have a sniff and we gifted them the goal. Leicester barely had a sniff either and scored from their one effort at goal.

So we gifted a goal to our opponents but were still defensively solid? How does that work? 

Leicester scored because we conceded possession in our own half, backed off the player allowing him a free shot on goal against a goalkeeper susceptible to conceding goals from outside the area. 

Meanwhile in those same two games we created no better goal scoring chances than our opponents did. 

1 minute ago, Bob stark said:

Not sure it was weakened too much though. He couldn't play the same lineup every 3 days. 

Other than Gilmour n kepa, pretty much all of the players that started against arse and Leicester are regular under Tuchel. 

 

 

So Zouma, Alonso, Kepa, Gilmour will all start on the 29th then ? 

5 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

So we gifted a goal to our opponents but were still defensively solid? How does that work? 

Leicester scored because we conceded possession in our own half, backed off the player allowing him a free shot on goal against a goalkeeper susceptible to conceding goals from outside the area. 

Meanwhile in those same two games we created no better goal scoring chances than our opponents did. 

Individual mistake. It happens sometimes.

Against Arsenal we have two in the woodwork, 1v1 with the goalkeeper, Mount with a couple of good chances to name a few. No more than our opponents? Come off it.

Same with Leicester. Hit the woodwork, Schmeichel with a wonder save, goal disallowed, Mount with at least one great chance from 18 yards. We created plenty to win both games.

 

 

3 minutes ago, coco said:

So Zouma, Alonso, Kepa, Gilmour will all start on the 29th then ? 

We have one week break before 29th. Barring any injury, none of those player will start. 

 

 

53 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Tuchel has built his side around the foundation of being defensively solid which has helped to mask our short fallings in attack. We've struggled to score since Tuchel arrived. 

For the last 3 games we've conceded first. If not for Aguero uncharacteristically making a dogs dinner of a penalty we could well have been starring at 3 losses on the bounce. 

The foundation of our strength has eroded. 

Tuchel's got to do something or our season risks imploding. 

Not sure I agree with you here. Our defense is still perfectly fine. I don't think Leicester or arsenal created much against us. You can pretty much forget that city game, analyzing that game is pointless. 

Against arse n Leicester, we just made bad individual mistake that lead to goal. 

Gotta say, I’m shocked by our recent record in finals. It’s so poor 

57 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Tuchel has built his side around the foundation of being defensively solid which has helped to mask our short fallings in attack. We've struggled to score since Tuchel arrived. 

For the last 3 games we've conceded first. If not for Aguero uncharacteristically making a dogs dinner of a penalty we could well have been starring at 3 losses on the bounce. 

The foundation of our strength has eroded. 

Tuchel's got to do something or our season risks imploding. 

Very important because we're not scoring but the opposition gets to find a goal in one way or another. We can't rely on winning games by this coin toss tactic now, something needs to be improved.

14 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Individual mistake. It happens sometimes.

Against Arsenal we have two in the woodwork, 1v1 with the goalkeeper, Mount with a couple of good chances to name a few. No more than our opponents? Come off it.

Same with Leicester. Hit the woodwork, Schmeichel with a wonder save, goal disallowed, Mount with at least one great chance from 18 yards. We created plenty to win both games.

 

 

We didn't create much against Leicester. That wonder save was probably our best chances. 

Created next to nothing against Leicester, yes Mount had his shot but that was really a creation from Mount and the goal mouth scramble. We never created any clear cut chances.

7 minutes ago, JM7 said:

Gotta say, I’m shocked by our recent record in finals. It’s so poor 

Probably that is more of reflection of our  team quality, we have been the underdog most of the time. 

Recently, the only time we lost when we are the better team were yesterday, last year against arse (but we losed 4 starters in one game so understandable) and that Anthony Taylor special.

 

17 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Against arse n Leicester, we just made bad individual mistake that lead to goal. 

So you could say that through individual errors we were less defensively solid? 

Individual errors leading to consecutive defeats, one of which being a cup final. 

And if the same thing happens against City in Porto? 

I didn't want to see Frank fired and I would say the same about Tuchel. He has significantly tightened our defense but needs to find a way for us to become more of an attacking force. Some of the issue is just poor finishing but we also don't create enough in most games. 

I would worry for Tuchel is if we have a bad end to the season and miss out on top 4 plus the cups. We saw under Frank how quickly underlying player dissatisfaction came to the surface during a bad run. After the City win we looked like a strong squad in unity, but we know how quickly that can change here.

38 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

We didn't create much against Leicester. That wonder save was probably our best chances. 

We had two chances with just the keeper to beat, Werner blasts over and Mount skews wide, we had the Chilwell header to the post, we had the cross that Werner misdirected and Azpi missed and then the VAR incident with Chilwell running onto Silva's deep pass.

I can only recall a header from Leicester and the goal. 

Small margins.