4 hours ago, Dean said:

We were in a tailspin when Frank left. He’d lost the dressing room, and we were completely at sea, with no playing style, no system. We were past the point of no return. I never joined the pile-on and I didn’t clamour for his dismissal. But that’s what my head was telling me and I have greater conviction on it now. We were never going to make 4th. Of course we will never know the counterfactual so I can’t prove anything. But I believe time will prove me right. Frank has the attributes to be a good manager, but not quite enough to succeed at the very top - which is a very hard thing to do. One of the hardest things in the world. I can elaborate on what I think Frank lacks to make it to the very top of management but no time now :). 

Whenever a manager leaves you hear stuff thrown out like "He lost the dressing room". From what I could see most players spoke highly of Frank after his departure and were sad to see him go. I certainly suspect that Alonso would have been unhappy under Frank since he was frozen out. Perhaps 1 or 2 others for similar reasons. But I am not convinced that Frank lost the dressing room. The team lost form there is no doubt over that but the core players still seemed committed to succeeding under him. I am pretty sure the same rubbish would be thrown out if and when Tuchel leaves too. Just like Alonso under Frank, I am sure the likes of Tammy and even CHO are not too thrilled right now.

25 minutes ago, forbzy said:

Whenever a manager leaves you hear stuff thrown out like "He lost the dressing room". From what I could see most players spoke highly of Frank after his departure and were sad to see him go. I certainly suspect that Alonso would have been unhappy under Frank since he was frozen out. Perhaps 1 or 2 others for similar reasons. But I am not convinced that Frank lost the dressing room. The team lost form there is no doubt over that but the core players still seemed committed to succeeding under him. I am pretty sure the same rubbish would be thrown out if and when Tuchel leaves too. Just like Alonso under Frank, I am sure the likes of Tammy and even CHO are not too thrilled right now.

I disagree with this. It wasn’t just about the dressing room. There’s a laundry list of other areas where Frank didn’t quite measure up : 

- insufficient meticulousness / attention to detail (the data analysis etc that Tuchel espouses but is scorned by so many in the domestic football establishment is a crucial part of the modern game. The game is soooo competitive. You have to examine every detail, you have to do whatever it takes to gain even the slightest edge. Frank isn’t  cut of that cloth).

- lack of authority: not enough distance between him and the players / too much camaraderie possibly. Tammy and CHO may not be thrilled now but you can’t keep everyone happy. If they are not getting selected it’s based on merit and objective criteria (Tuchel probably has the data to back it up) and, crucially, they still have a way back in. It’s not comparable to the Alonso situation. He was shut out completely for months due to a spat. It was out of control and as a manager you can’t let that happen. It’s bad man management. From Roman’s point of view he’s still paying Alonso’s wages and this is a player who can win games. 

- misdiagnosis of what went wrong in post-match analyses. Always the players’ fault.

- lack of tactical acumen: no system, too loose. Didn’t have answers when things went wrong.

- not enough vigour when it came to motivating players from the sidelines during a game.

Lampard and Tuchel are currently not in the same league. Lampard may go on to become a great manager, and I’d be extremely happy if he proved me wrong. But I don’t see it happening. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Dean said:

I disagree with this. It wasn’t just about the dressing room. There’s a laundry list of other areas where Frank didn’t quite measure up : 

- insufficient meticulousness / attention to detail (the data analysis etc that Tuchel espouses but is scorned by so many in the domestic football establishment is a crucial part of the modern game. The game is soooo competitive. You have to examine every detail, you have to do whatever it takes to gain even the slightest edge. Frank isn’t  cut of that cloth).

- lack of authority: not enough distance between him and the players / too much camaraderie possibly. Tammy and CHO may not be thrilled now but you can’t keep everyone happy. If they are not getting selected it’s based on merit and objective criteria (Tuchel probably has the data to back it up) and, crucially, they still have a way back in. It’s not comparable to the Alonso situation. He was shut out completely for months due to a spat. It was out of control and as a manager you can’t let that happen. It’s bad man management. From Roman’s point of view he’s still paying Alonso’s wages and this is a player who can win games. 

- misdiagnosis of what went wrong in post-match analyses. Always the players’ fault.

- lack of tactical acumen: no system, too loose. Didn’t have answers when things went wrong.

- not enough vigour when it came to motivating players from the sidelines during a game.

Lampard and Tuchel are currently not in the same league. Lampard may go on to become a great manager, and I’d be extremely happy if he proved me wrong. But I don’t see it happening. 

 

 

I was specifically referring to the quote about losing the dressing room and I already acknowledged that there were other issues. I don't see the difference between the way that Alonso and Abraham have been treated either. Abraham has been totally frozen out and no adequate reason has been provided. In several games he could have been used as part of the rotation and offered a source of goals.

9 minutes ago, forbzy said:

I was specifically referring to the quote about losing the dressing room and I already acknowledged that there were other issues. I don't see the difference between the way that Alonso and Abraham have been treated either. Abraham has been totally frozen out and no adequate reason has been provided. In several games he could have been used as part of the rotation and offered a source of goals.

Ok fair points. Sorry if I misconstrued your earlier post. I tend to think the main reason Tammy isn’t getting selected is he just isn’t quite good enough. But this is admittedly subjective and it’s not hard to mount a case against that view with hard data like goals scored per minute vs Werner. I understand that. 

Well done tom.. two to go.....

7 hours ago, bisright1 said:

 

CHELSEA FAN VIEW: Thomas Tuchel will be SACKED if he ends the season with no top four or trophies... his tactics have been found out at a crucial time and Roman Abramovich has shown NO manager is safe after his treatment of Frank Lampard

How does Rory Jennings get work. This is nonsense from start to finish. 

He should stick to Eastenders. 

Good result for him tonight. His subs were a bit late though and with a few running out of gas they could have been a tad earlier. He deserved the luck with the Perez miss.

Calling out the constant sh*t VAR decisions right now 

Great win, well done TT.  Stays calm amongst the chaos.

Why does it take so many chances, offside goals, VAR, and such for us to score a goal.  And can we please score from open play - let's have some midfielders join in the opposition box!

Conversely, why do goals against us continue to come out of nothing!

Win the next two TT and you'll go down in history.

I wonder what his stats say about Timo...

The table doesn't lie. We are 3rd/4th/5th best in this league. The Champions league final is a bit of anomaly but naturally well deserved spot for us and if we win it we have done brilliantly. City is a side that has CL win written all over them. Their top players are in peak age and after many huge losses in crucial games for them over past 5 years they must feel they are destined for it. 

I feel we need masses of luck, City off their game and every little thing going our way to win it. But still we have a chance. 

If we had someone who scores with a big probability like Kane or Haaland I'd say we have a good chance. We have seen how City can struggle against us at times. When they do we need to capitalise. A normal Werner-show where he is either offside, scoring with a hand or missing a sitter Champions League final is not a venue for that. For the winning side anyway. City have Forden, DeBruyne, Gundogan, Mahrez, Sterling who all can score in that game. 

At this moment I only trust maybe Mason to score or Jorginho from the spot. 

Anyway it is just one game. 

18 hours ago, Gol15 said:

It's not hypocritical to bring up how we looked under Lampard and compare it to how we looked very soon under Tuchel and I was one of those not agreeing with Lampard's sacking just for the record.

If we are to look at how many points Tuchel won since he took over he managed to win more points in 15 games in comparison to Lampard's 19 games so he has done a great job winning more points where Lampard could have won 12 in total and that's despite not having any time to work on anything in particular.
So even if he didn't solve our attacking problems he has managed to make us a more stable team. The only thing that can be pointed out is our attacking problems which isn't anything new and it definitely didn't start with Tuchel so for that bigger problem he should be given a whole year to fix and a full pre-season at the very least.

This is how the table would look if we were to count it only from the point of Tuchel taking over:

Pos	Team	P	W	D	L	GD	Pts
1	Man City	16	13	0	3	23	39
2	Chelsea	16	10	5	1	13	35
3	Man United	16	8	6	2	18	30
4	Liverpool	16	8	2	6	5	26
5	Leicester	16	7	4	5	6	25
6	Arsenal	16	7	4	5	6	25
7	Leeds	16	7	3	6	3	24
8	Everton	18	6	6	6	-3	24
9	Tottenham	17	7	2	8	4	23

So by all means 7 points doesn't look like much but if you consider the rest of the teams there has been only 1 team better than us since Tuchel took over which is a small miracle.

And here is just how we did after 25 games under Tuchel:

Won: 17
Drawn: 6
Lost: 2

Goals for: 34
Goals against: 11
Clean sheets: 18

Points per game: 2.04
Win rate: 68%
Loss rate: 8%
Clean sheet rate: 72%

And that same article from which you took that picture also has another one in case you missed it:

So we have lost only 4 games under Tuchel and more than 5 under Lampard, it's safe to say that we are better now.

Do you have goal scored with the rank as well? 

38 minutes ago, evissy said:

The table doesn't lie. We are 3rd/4th/5th best in this league. The Champions league final is a bit of anomaly but naturally well deserved spot for us and if we win it we have done brilliantly. City is a side that has CL win written all over them. Their top players are in peak age and after many huge losses in crucial games for them over past 5 years they must feel they are destined for it. 

I feel we need masses of luck, City off their game and every little thing going our way to win it. But still we have a chance. 

If we had someone who scores with a big probability like Kane or Haaland I'd say we have a good chance. We have seen how City can struggle against us at times. When they do we need to capitalise. A normal Werner-show where he is either offside, scoring with a hand or missing a sitter Champions League final is not a venue for that. For the winning side anyway. City have Forden, DeBruyne, Gundogan, Mahrez, Sterling who all can score in that game. 

At this moment I only trust maybe Mason to score or Jorginho from the spot. 

Anyway it is just one game. 

 

It is just one game, we have a good chance but like you said clearly we are the underdog. But if you listen to this forum, you have people that have been saying that Tuchel has Pep number, City player must be having sleepless night preparing against us because we spanked them twice, or something like that. 

IMO just don't concede first,if we concede early then it is done. 

 

We battered Leicester last night but still relied on set peices to get our goals. 

I don't think it's really up for debate, he'll be here next season. He's shown enough in 6 months to suggest he can win things with Chelsea. 

I think the club need to, and most likely will, go all out for a striker this summer. We'll enquire about Kane but there's little chance that one happening, I think he's going to join City. I think we'll push for Haaland and Lukaku might be a contingency. 

A quality centre back and midfielder would go a long way to improving the squad but honestly, I think the club will make signing a forward a priority and if we manage to sign someone of quality we could look a whole different beast next season.  

27 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

We battered Leicester last night but still relied on set peices to get our goals. 

I don't think it's really up for debate, he'll be here next season. He's shown enough in 6 months to suggest he can win things with Chelsea. 

I think the club need to, and most likely will, go all out for a striker this summer. We'll enquire about Kane but there's little chance that one happening, I think he's going to join City. I think we'll push for Haaland and Lukaku might be a contingency. 

A quality centre back and midfielder would go a long way to improving the squad but honestly, I think the club will make signing a forward a priority and if we manage to sign someone of quality we could look a whole different beast next season.  

I was going to say "unless Werner suddenly transfors into a goal scoring machine" and then I realised there's only two matches left, so it's probably a bit late for that now. I think you're right, and it's pretty much what we've been saying ever since Costa left, although I think the club's other priority this summer will be to trim down the squad in general. 

42 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

We battered Leicester last night but still relied on set peices to get our goals. 

I don't think it's really up for debate, he'll be here next season. He's shown enough in 6 months to suggest he can win things with Chelsea. 

I think the club need to, and most likely will, go all out for a striker this summer. We'll enquire about Kane but there's little chance that one happening, I think he's going to join City. I think we'll push for Haaland and Lukaku might be a contingency. 

A quality centre back and midfielder would go a long way to improving the squad but honestly, I think the club will make signing a forward a priority and if we manage to sign someone of quality we could look a whole different beast next season.  

Kane will be perfect but impossible. Haaland is interesting conundrum. The key is what is our plan for the future. Can we play with two st staying up high or we need one of them to drop more which is not haaland/werner game.

 

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

Do you have goal scored with the rank as well? 

I think we scored more goals under Lampard in the first 19 games this season in comparison to the rest of the games under Tuchel. We also scored a lot of goals last season but we conceded a lot as well. We clearly have a problem scoring goals, yesterday we scored twice from set pieces so we can't rely to win games like that next season.

36 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I think we scored more goals under Lampard in the first 19 games this season in comparison to the rest of the games under Tuchel. We also scored a lot of goals last season but we conceded a lot as well. We clearly have a problem scoring goals, yesterday we scored twice from set pieces so we can't rely to win games like that next season.

Penalties aside - wasn't this more or less the first goal from a set-piece under Tuchel? I most likely will be wrong but I always heard talk about how threatening Chelsea is with their corners (most likely when Zouma played a lot I'd think..) but I never really saw it. On the contrary. Except yesterday, almost every corner we took was damn good.

I wouldn't worry about that now tbh. In general it's a major feat being able to score from set pieces. And we do get chances from open play in abundance too (we just don't score adequately..)

Edited May 19, 20215 yr by weetee

20 minutes ago, weetee said:

Penalties aside - wasn't this more or less the first goal from a set-piece under Tuchel? I most likely will be wrong but I always heard talk about how threatening Chelsea is with their corners (most likely when Zouma played a lot I'd think..) but I never really saw it. On the contrary. Except yesterday, almost every corner we took was damn good.

I wouldn't worry about that now tbh. In general it's a major feat being able to score from set pieces. And we do get chances from open play in abundance too (we just don't score adequately..)

We had a spell with Giroud, Zouma and Silva combining to score a few goals from corners under Frank.

Died away after Zouma and Giroud were benched under TT.

Good to see us score again from one and I often wonder why we don't have a man on the near post to flick the ball on at times.

3 hours ago, evissy said:

The table doesn't lie. We are 3rd/4th/5th best in this league

Fairly confident we are the 2nd best team in the league myself. Behind City and United could probably also beat us in a game due to all their firepower offensively compared to us.

But it's the first half of the season that has us in a dogfight for Top 4 and since Tuchel arrived it's been us and City who's got the most points, with a significant gap to the team in third.

And the upside here is absolutely massive in my view. We are almost kept pace with a rampant City without a single forward that score consistently. So when we adress that issue in the summer as we all expect we should be a terrifying team to come up against.

 

 

 

46 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I think we scored more goals under Lampard in the first 19 games this season in comparison to the rest of the games under Tuchel. We also scored a lot of goals last season but we conceded a lot as well. We clearly have a problem scoring goals, yesterday we scored twice from set pieces so we can't rely to win games like that next season.

It is all about the balance and game plan. We are penetrating opponent lines in a different way, teams setup in a different formation against us and so on. This 3 at back-wing play style is working for us atm but its biggest weakness is the situations we arrive at closing in on opponent box. We come mainly through wings and we face 10 opponent players in the box. This is why many times we look better against bigger sides as they never sit back with 10. As long as we beat their press we are good. 

I don't think Tuchel will change the system. The backbone is good but we need to to buck up ideas in the opponents half and most of all be more clinical. 

2 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Fairly confident we are the 2nd best team in the league myself. Behind City and United could probably also beat us in a game due to all their firepower offensively compared to us.

But it's the first half of the season that has us in a dogfight for Top 4 and since Tuchel arrived it's been us and City who's got the most points, with a significant gap to the team in third.

And the upside here is absolutely massive in my view. We are almost kept pace with a rampant City without a single forward that score consistently. So when we adress that issue in the summer as we all expect we should be a terrifying team to come up against.

 

 

 

I agree next season we might be. But a season is long and there is always ups and downs. In terms of squad we are probably second best in the league after City. 

1 minute ago, Sindre said:

And the upside here is absolutely massive in my view. We are almost kept pace with a rampant City without a single forward that score consistently. So when we adress that issue in the summer as we all expect we should be a terrifying team to come up against.

 

 

 

Just to add: City plays without a real forward more often than not as well, their top-scorer is Gündogan I think (of all, lol - love it though). We can even top that with Jorgi having almost half his goals (13/7, I think).

2 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Fairly confident we are the 2nd best team in the league myself. Behind City and United could probably also beat us in a game due to all their firepower offensively compared to us.

But it's the first half of the season that has us in a dogfight for Top 4 and since Tuchel arrived it's been us and City who's got the most points, with a significant gap to the team in third.

And the upside here is absolutely massive in my view. We are almost kept pace with a rampant City without a single forward that score consistently. So when we adress that issue in the summer as we all expect we should be a terrifying team to come up against.

 

 

 

I agree next season we might be. But a season is long and there is always ups and downs. In terms of squad we are probably second best in the league after City. 

More of this please. Glad someone is talking about!!