22 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

Hate? Where has somebody said that they hate any of our players.

This is a modern day thing that I can't get my head around. As soon anybody has a comment that isn't 100% positive it's being referred to as hate. That's totally illogical to me. There are so many things that I don't like, it doesn't mean by definition I hate them.

I don't even think the comment being referred was anything other than a rational opinion.

I don't know our players personally to ever hate them. The odd one or two do things that really annoy me, but that is all it is. Hate is too strong of a word.

3 hours ago, Gordon Bennett said:

Fair play. My point being there's no evidence that this has worked or will work. Given that Clearlake have lurched from one strategy to another, from one style of manager to another without any consistency doesn't give me confidence in them at all. I'm not sure how anyone can disagree with that.

There are so many instances which go against the "buying players for profit" argument - whether it's the initial strategy of buying established players, like Sterling, on massive wages (he won't make us a profit), to buying up and coming players like Andrey Santos, Casadei, or Ugochukwu (failed loans, pointlessly recalled or injured - no profit here), to buying mega money players like Enzo, Caicedo or Mudryk (none will be sold for more than purchased, if sold then likely to be at a loss).

I'm totally supportive of all the players and hope they do brilliantly for us. But in terms of having confidence in Clearlake's strategy I'll need to start seeing some evidence for rather than overwhelming evidence against ☺️

Do you believe your first paragraph exclusively apply to Clearlake ? The fact of the matter is  that Chelsea  has been using that  operating procedure  stretching back to Bates yet some seem to have forgotten the different styles and managers that Ken’s appointments bought to the table and when you look at RA well he was the master.
 

Tuchal from the rumours was a disaster waiting to happen and as witnessed during his tenure at Bayern quickly falls out with the hierarchy. Potter ticked all the boxes the unknown was how he would perform at a top 6 club and as we know was out of his depth. Frank was never going to be anything more than an interim appoint.

So to Poch he should have done far better in the early stages of the 23/24 season. I really didn’t think he was as tactically inept as he clearly was and when an employee doesn’t . It’s clear that Clearlake were unsure hence the short contract. Irrespective he clearly wanted out of the off field set up and one thing suggested to me is he openly challenged the authority of those in senior management and not operating in accord with their plans 

Your second paragraph is strange because it sort of reads that buying experience doesn’t work nor does buying potential. I do agree that loans out are always a gamble but Santos was recalled from Forest  who like Leicester with Casadei and Fulham with Broja, didn’t honour agreements.

As I have pointed out before we still haven’t seen a number of the players they have purchased some like Gusto, like Palmer and yes even Jackson have done well others are still finding their feet but when you bring players in be they young be they experienced there are no guarantees but the transition from  junior football to the Pl is tough enough but when you throw in a  move to a different country that clearly adds yet another level of complexity 

But under pinning all of this I do think is the fact that far too many are just dismissing the significant hurdles they have had to navigate . Some no doubt will never be published but others such as the historic abuse case, the continuing impact of sanctions and of course on going PL investigations into alleged off book payments 

 

 

7 hours ago, terraloon said:

Do you believe your first paragraph exclusively apply to Clearlake ? The fact of the matter is  that Chelsea  has been using that  operating procedure  stretching back to Bates yet some seem to have forgotten the different styles and managers that Ken’s appointments bought to the table and when you look at RA well he was the master.
 

Tuchal from the rumours was a disaster waiting to happen and as witnessed during his tenure at Bayern quickly falls out with the hierarchy. Potter ticked all the boxes the unknown was how he would perform at a top 6 club and as we know was out of his depth. Frank was never going to be anything more than an interim appoint.

So to Poch he should have done far better in the early stages of the 23/24 season. I really didn’t think he was as tactically inept as he clearly was and when an employee doesn’t . It’s clear that Clearlake were unsure hence the short contract. Irrespective he clearly wanted out of the off field set up and one thing suggested to me is he openly challenged the authority of those in senior management and not operating in accord with their plans 

Your second paragraph is strange because it sort of reads that buying experience doesn’t work nor does buying potential. I do agree that loans out are always a gamble but Santos was recalled from Forest  who like Leicester with Casadei and Fulham with Broja, didn’t honour agreements.

As I have pointed out before we still haven’t seen a number of the players they have purchased some like Gusto, like Palmer and yes even Jackson have done well others are still finding their feet but when you bring players in be they young be they experienced there are no guarantees but the transition from  junior football to the Pl is tough enough but when you throw in a  move to a different country that clearly adds yet another level of complexity 

But under pinning all of this I do think is the fact that far too many are just dismissing the significant hurdles they have had to navigate . Some no doubt will never be published but others such as the historic abuse case, the continuing impact of sanctions and of course on going PL investigations into alleged off book payments 

 

 

I'm not getting into some rambling debate. In a nutshell some people on here are saying part of our transfer strategy is to make profit from players, but I've yet to see any evidence of that working. It's not a big deal (to me, at least).

Christ almighty I can't wait for the season to start 🤣

10 minutes ago, Gordon Bennett said:

I'm not getting into some rambling debate. In a nutshell some people on here are saying part of our transfer strategy is to make profit from players, but I've yet to see any evidence of that working. It's not a big deal (to me, at least).

Christ almighty I can't wait for the season to start 🤣

I can't wait either tbh...I'm hoping the preseason matches can help.

 

Unfortunately it will still take time to see any evidence that their plan is working. I joked about next season but in reality it will be a few seasons before we see it. I honestly hope their plan works for the sake of the club we love.

14 hours ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

@terraloon I don't think its about who has done well at other clubs as transfers can affect a player, its about how they did for us and what we've replaced them with. 

Sold CHO for £3m and somehow downgraded with our £63m Ukrainian. 

RLC was an ideal squad player and was sold for half of what we paid for Ugochukwu. The irony is he'd be perfect right now for what we'll be using KDH for. 

Chalobah is better than Disasi and Badiashile, yet is being forced out of the club. 

Just a bit weird really. 

Wages

10 hours ago, terraloon said:

Tuchal from the rumours was a disaster waiting to happen and as witnessed during his tenure at Bayern quickly falls out with the hierarchy.

It still amuses me that the one hierarchy Tuchel never fell out is Chelsea's under Roman - ie a hierarchy notorious for falling out with managers!

4 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

It still amuses me that the one hierarchy Tuchel never fell out is Chelsea's under Roman - ie a hierarchy notorious for falling out with managers!

Don’t think after the CL win ( which I believe the final was the first time Tuchel & RA actually met face to face ) there was a lot of opportunity the sanctions forced a far more political role . Once the new owners shipped up it was only a matter of time till he left for some reason new owners just about everywhere bring in their own man pretty soon after takeover 

9 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Wages

Mudryk earns more than CHO was on.

Badiashile and Disasi both earn almost double what Chalobah is on. 

Loftus Cheek obviously would have earned more, but whatever we're paying players like Ugochukwu is a waste because they don't even play. 

42 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

Mudryk earns more than CHO was on.

Badiashile and Disasi both earn almost double what Chalobah is on. 

Loftus Cheek obviously would have earned more, but whatever we're paying players like Ugochukwu is a waste because they don't even play. 

I was talking more about Ruben. 

Chalobah case is simple. The team need to sell somebody. 

You can't move Disasi. You can't move Badi. You certainly can't move Fofana. So you sell Chalo. 

5 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

I was talking more about Ruben. 

Chalobah case is simple. The team need to sell somebody. 

You can't move Disasi. You can't move Badi. You certainly can't move Fofana. So you sell Chalo. 

In regards Ruben,, of course you pay more salary for a better player though.

Chalobah case isn't simple, don't sign Disasi and Badiashile in the first place. The anger is that we're selling better academy players because of poor planning the first place signing bang average players. 

13 hours ago, Gordon Bennett said:

I'm not getting into some rambling debate. In a nutshell some people on here are saying part of our transfer strategy is to make profit from players, but I've yet to see any evidence of that working. It's not a big deal (to me, at least).

Christ almighty I can't wait for the season to start 🤣

With the sheer amount of players we have bought it would be pretty much impossible to not make a profit overall. Might lose on some but that's just normal, never gonna win with all and I doubt the club is expecting to.

1 hour ago, Remodez said:

With the sheer amount of players we have bought it would be pretty much impossible to not make a profit overall. Might lose on some but that's just normal, never gonna win with all and I doubt the club is expecting to.

Enzo Fernández    €121.00m LOSS
Wesley Fofana     €80.40m LOSS
Mykhaylo Mudryk    €70.00m LOSS
Marc Cucurella    €65.30m BREAK EVEN THANKS TO EUROS MAYBE
Raheem Sterling    €56.20m LOSS
Kalidou Koulibaly    €41.90m ALREADY A LOSS
Benoît Badiashile    €38.00m LOSS
Noni Madueke    €35.00m PROFIT, SOMEONE WOULD TAKE THE GAMBLE
Malo Gusto    €30.00m HEAVY PROFIT
Carney Chukwuemeka    €18.00m PROFIT
Cesare Casadei   €14.86m BREAK EVEN OR PROFIT 
Andrey Santos    €12.50m PROFIT
Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang   €12.00m ALREADY A LOSS
David Datro Fofana    €12.00m SMALL PROFIT
João Félix    Loan fee:€11.00m ALREADY A LOSS
Gabriel Slonina    €9.09m BREAK EVEN

Moisés Caicedo    €116.00m LOSS
Roméo Lavia    €62.10m LOSS
Christopher Nkunku    €60.00m LOSS
Cole Palmer     €47.00m HUGE PROFIT
Axel Disasi    €45.00m LOSS 
Nicolas Jackson    €37.00m BREAK EVEN/SMALL PROFIT
Lesley Ugochukwu    €27.00m LOSS
Robert Sánchez    €23.00m LOSS
Djordje Petrovic    €16.00m SMALL PROFIT
Deivid Washington    €16.00m LOSS
Ângelo    €15.00m PROFIT
Diego Moreira    free transfer PROFIT

Kiernan Dewsbury-Hall    €35.40m PROFIT
Omari Kellyman    €22.50m LOSS
Renato Veiga    €14.00m UNKNOWN, LETS SAY BREAK EVEN
Caleb Wiley    €10.10m LOSS
Marc Guiu    €6.00m PROFIT
Tosin Adarabioyo    free transfer PROFIT

I'd say at face value we'd be lucky to break even if we sold people now, Cole Palmer and free transfers probably make up the bulk of any profit we'd make. The hit rate isn't good, far too much risk in the strategy. 

31 minutes ago, Ukraine Bolt said:

Enzo Fernández    €121.00m LOSS
Wesley Fofana     €80.40m LOSS
Mykhaylo Mudryk    €70.00m LOSS
Marc Cucurella    €65.30m BREAK EVEN THANKS TO EUROS MAYBE
Raheem Sterling    €56.20m LOSS
Kalidou Koulibaly    €41.90m ALREADY A LOSS
Benoît Badiashile    €38.00m LOSS
Noni Madueke    €35.00m PROFIT, SOMEONE WOULD TAKE THE GAMBLE
Malo Gusto    €30.00m HEAVY PROFIT
Carney Chukwuemeka    €18.00m PROFIT
Cesare Casadei   €14.86m BREAK EVEN OR PROFIT 
Andrey Santos    €12.50m PROFIT
Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang   €12.00m ALREADY A LOSS
David Datro Fofana    €12.00m SMALL PROFIT
João Félix    Loan fee:€11.00m ALREADY A LOSS
Gabriel Slonina    €9.09m BREAK EVEN

Moisés Caicedo    €116.00m LOSS
Roméo Lavia    €62.10m LOSS
Christopher Nkunku    €60.00m LOSS
Cole Palmer     €47.00m HUGE PROFIT
Axel Disasi    €45.00m LOSS 
Nicolas Jackson    €37.00m BREAK EVEN/SMALL PROFIT
Lesley Ugochukwu    €27.00m LOSS
Robert Sánchez    €23.00m LOSS
Djordje Petrovic    €16.00m SMALL PROFIT
Deivid Washington    €16.00m LOSS
Ângelo    €15.00m PROFIT
Diego Moreira    free transfer PROFIT

Kiernan Dewsbury-Hall    €35.40m PROFIT
Omari Kellyman    €22.50m LOSS
Renato Veiga    €14.00m UNKNOWN, LETS SAY BREAK EVEN
Caleb Wiley    €10.10m LOSS
Marc Guiu    €6.00m PROFIT
Tosin Adarabioyo    free transfer PROFIT

I'd say at face value we'd be lucky to break even if we sold people now, Cole Palmer and free transfers probably make up the bulk of any profit we'd make. The hit rate isn't good, far too much risk in the strategy. 

Maybe I didn't clarify, I and the original post was referencing the batch of youth players we bought that are clearly there to just loan and make a profit on. I wouldn't include Enzo, Lavia, Caicedo, etc into this. 

We spent a fair bit on Deivid wastinghon for example but a good loan in Spain would see us make an easy profit. All it takes is one good loan and we've made a profit on the vast majority of them. Someone like Lesley would need to really excel though for profit to be made. 

On 23/07/2024 at 15:25, terraloon said:

Loftus Cheek is doing well in a league which clearly suits him it is less physically demanding that’s for sure. CHO did well last season but the evidence had been up to that point that he was not going to progress. Mattesen I will wait till I say too much about. Ampadu is doing well at Leeds in the EFLhe really didn’t pull up any trees at PL level. Mount should do well but it’s beyond doubt that on Redcafe he isn’t rated at all.

But my request  wasn’t just asking you to at the players sold under Clearlake but to reflect on the last 3 years of RAs tenure to try and get perspective.

T

Sorry about the late reply but yes one could go through them individually like that and weigh the pros and cons but what would happen if you now did that with Casadei (who's seemingly not found worthy for pre-season), Lesley, Datro Fofana, Kellyman, Slonina, Washington, Petrovic and so on?

There was clearly some poor sales towards the end in the RA era (Guehi stands out) but again, one never got the feeling that we were in danger of losing all our Cobham lads under his stewardship and after the transfer-ban we generally had 6-8 club lads in the squad as I mentioned previously. And it used to be a hot topic that there should be a pathway and plan for integrating academy players but it seems to me that many are fully prepared to throw that under the bus now in favour of the flavour of the month from South America or otherwise.

Anyways, there's nothing we can do about it but in the end I think its something we'll likely regret. With RA one could be sure that the goal was always to win in any case. What we are currently doing in my opinion is selling off good academy players (and asset stripping the club in additional ways)  to artificially keep a player-trading-operation going for a bit longer. For me that's what they are turning the club into. They will only buy players they think/hope they can sell for more money than they bought them for and winning is for them far less important than that.

On 24/07/2024 at 13:51, Ukraine Bolt said:

Enzo Fernández    €121.00m LOSS
Wesley Fofana     €80.40m LOSS
Mykhaylo Mudryk    €70.00m LOSS
Marc Cucurella    €65.30m BREAK EVEN THANKS TO EUROS MAYBE
Raheem Sterling    €56.20m LOSS
Kalidou Koulibaly    €41.90m ALREADY A LOSS
Benoît Badiashile    €38.00m LOSS
Noni Madueke    €35.00m PROFIT, SOMEONE WOULD TAKE THE GAMBLE
Malo Gusto    €30.00m HEAVY PROFIT
Carney Chukwuemeka    €18.00m PROFIT
Cesare Casadei   €14.86m BREAK EVEN OR PROFIT 
Andrey Santos    €12.50m PROFIT
Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang   €12.00m ALREADY A LOSS
David Datro Fofana    €12.00m SMALL PROFIT
João Félix    Loan fee:€11.00m ALREADY A LOSS
Gabriel Slonina    €9.09m BREAK EVEN

Moisés Caicedo    €116.00m LOSS
Roméo Lavia    €62.10m LOSS
Christopher Nkunku    €60.00m LOSS
Cole Palmer     €47.00m HUGE PROFIT
Axel Disasi    €45.00m LOSS 
Nicolas Jackson    €37.00m BREAK EVEN/SMALL PROFIT
Lesley Ugochukwu    €27.00m LOSS
Robert Sánchez    €23.00m LOSS
Djordje Petrovic    €16.00m SMALL PROFIT
Deivid Washington    €16.00m LOSS
Ângelo    €15.00m PROFIT
Diego Moreira    free transfer PROFIT

Kiernan Dewsbury-Hall    €35.40m PROFIT
Omari Kellyman    €22.50m LOSS
Renato Veiga    €14.00m UNKNOWN, LETS SAY BREAK EVEN
Caleb Wiley    €10.10m LOSS
Marc Guiu    €6.00m PROFIT
Tosin Adarabioyo    free transfer PROFIT

I'd say at face value we'd be lucky to break even if we sold people now, Cole Palmer and free transfers probably make up the bulk of any profit we'd make. The hit rate isn't good, far too much risk in the strategy. 

Sorry but seriously flawed for several  of reasons:

1) You can only judge a profit or loss based on depreciated value. To try and carry out the sort of exercise you have been through would be based on pure cash in v cash out but how do you quantify value attained.Its a bit like a farmer spending £20k on a tractor depreciating its value on a straight say 10 % Pa and after say 5 years selling for £19k and T saying you made a loss. Whereas for even basic accounting there is a profit but even then how do you quantify the impact of that asset?

2) The  sort of profit of loss assessment you are making on the majority of our players is subjectively in the extreme. 
3) How will player transfer fee  inflation play out ? 
4) What impact will loan fees play in the numbers on a player by player basis?For instance David Fofana on loan at Burnley what was the fee we charged them ? 

Off to Southampton on loan according to Ornstein

11 hours ago, Niall1905 said:

Off to Southampton on loan according to Ornstein

Which will be good for him. Of all the midfielders we have signed he looks to brightest.

11 hours ago, Niall1905 said:

Off to Southampton on loan according to Ornstein

with no buy option, we have stated hes definitely not for sale apparently.

6 minutes ago, El regreso said:

Which will be good for him. Of all the midfielders we have signed he looks to brightest.

And a decent man-manager for a coach.

Hope its the right move for him. 

4 hours ago, El regreso said:

Which will be good for him. Of all the midfielders we have signed he looks to brightest.

??

Enzo, Caicedo, Lavia, chukwuemeka

One thing Saints definitely need is a good DM.

I thought he looked promising during the US tour, but what do i know.?

Hey ho i would have liked to retain him in the squad.

16 hours ago, OneTommyLangley said:

I thought he looked promising during the US tour, but what do i know.?

Hey ho i would have liked to retain him in the squad.

I think it’s probably a case of it would have been better for Chelsea this season to keep him but it’s better for big les (and Chelsea long term) if he goes out and gets some decent minutes 

Southampton fans really excited about his performance last night. Good to see, if he gets a full season of playing in the Pl under his belt, I cant see him not being a very important part of our squad next season