I don't have a problem with giving young players a chance. My problem then when we were trying to buy them was two-fold.

(i) they have achieved nothing in the game to come in at such huge sums, Caicedo even less.

(ii) Midfield is always important but at the stage of rebuild we were at, it was misplaced priority to commit such huge sums without putting us on a sure footing first. Those were completion pieces spend in my opinion.

On the basis of what they've delivered so far, whilst it's hugely disappointing it's not totally unexpected.

 

On 03/02/2024 at 20:18, Argo said:

You may want to check where Arsenal are compared to this time last year with Partey.

Are you trying to insinuate Rice hasn't been a massive improvement to Arsenal's midfield? Because this is a stretch even for you with the random hills you choose to die on with opinions. 

On 04/02/2024 at 11:00, olderschoolcfc said:

Trouble is both Fabregas and Modric were far more influential and creative at Enzo's age. I said it at the start of the season, I dont see much difference between him and Lucas Torreira. Really similar players. Im not saying he can't improve but we've seen a drop off in form and I'd go so far as to say we're better without him in the side. I really think we need to move him on in the summer if he doesnt improve his performances. 

Fabregas, yes. Modric, no. 

3 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Are you trying to insinuate Rice hasn't been a massive improvement to Arsenal's midfield? Because this is a stretch even for you with the random hills you choose to die on with opinions. 

I mean he's been surprisingly good in a box to box role I'll give him that but let's not pretend he's been as good as Partey as a single 6.

There's a reason Jorginho has been getting drafted in against the majority of big teams and Arteta has been having Odegard drop deeper in the build up.

The way Odegaard has been involved in almost every aspect of play has me stunned he hasn't suffered any fatigue. Bloke is leading the transition of build up and then 20 seconds later he is in the box taking a shot. 

10 minutes ago, Argo said:

I mean he's been surprisingly good in a box to box role I'll give him that but let's not pretend he's been as good as Partey as a single 6.

There's a reason Jorginho has been getting drafted in against the majority of big teams and Arteta has been having Odegard drop deeper in the build up.

SKY commentary said yesterday was Jorginho's first EPL start since last November.

If he is so important to making Rice tick, (which he really isn't) you'd think Arteta would be starting him more often. I agree on Partey though. If he was fit Jorginho probably wouldn't be getting on the pitch at all.

This is from the BBC Sport match report on yesterday's game;

"Martinelli was the catalyst with a thrilling performance down Arsenal's left flank, deserving his albeit fortuitous goal for his endeavour, quality and willingness to chase down a cause that looked in Van Dijk's command until he got far too casual.

Arsenal's other outstanding performer was Declan Rice. He has proved on plenty of occasions this season exactly why Arteta was so willing to part with £105m to capture West Ham's captain and this was another one.

Rice barely wasted a pass, was peerless at winning possession and gave the home side an air of midfield authority when they needed it most".

On 04/02/2024 at 08:30, olderschoolcfc said:

Enzo has been with us a year... I wouldn't call him a flop or a spectacular success... I am expecting far more from him as a World Cup winner. 

Agreed. He is a tidy, skilled player for sure. But his defensive skills are unimpressive to say the least, and he doesn't contribute enough goals to be used as an attacking mid. Not really sure where he fits in to be honest. Certainly not alongside Caicedo. If we need a genuine defensive mid behind them, I suspect ultimately one of the 2 will have to make way.

1 minute ago, just said:

SKY commentary said yesterday was Jorginho's first EPL start since last November.

If he is so important to making Rice tick, (which he really isn't) you'd think Arteta would be starting him more often. I agree on Partey though. If he was fit Jorginho probably wouldn't be getting on the pitch at all.

This is from the BBC Sport match report on yesterday's game;

"Martinelli was the catalyst with a thrilling performance down Arsenal's left flank, deserving his albeit fortuitous goal for his endeavour, quality and willingness to chase down a cause that looked in Van Dijk's command until he got far too casual.

Arsenal's other outstanding performer was Declan Rice. He has proved on plenty of occasions this season exactly why Arteta was so willing to part with £105m to capture West Ham's captain and this was another one.

Rice barely wasted a pass, was peerless at winning possession and gave the home side an air of midfield authority when they needed it most".

I would have favored Rice over Caicedo. He may well have struggled in our system currently too. But for about the same price, Rice had several years more proven experience, had some connection to our club, and crucially would have brought some leadership to the team.

Just now, forbzy said:

I would have favored Rice over Caicedo. He may well have struggled in our system currently too. But for about the same price, Rice had several years more proven experience, had some connection to our club, and crucially would have brought some leadership to the team.

Mate I dread to think Rice in our set up and in complete isolation in the build up. 

10 minutes ago, forbzy said:

I would have favored Rice over Caicedo. He may well have struggled in our system currently too. But for about the same price, Rice had several years more proven experience, had some connection to our club, and crucially would have brought some leadership to the team.

Physically much more imposing than Caicedo too.

Enzo has been average at best. Not sure he’s much better than Jorginho. Caicedo has been very poor. 

At this stage I’m not sure if it’s the system/general culture of the club that’s causing players to perform below par or that they are useless. 
 

Hard to think of any Chelsea player that’s been better than average over the last 18 months with id say at least 10 being outright terrible and yet they are experienced campaigners/highly sought after by other clubs. 

42 minutes ago, Argo said:

I mean he's been surprisingly good in a box to box role I'll give him that but let's not pretend he's been as good as Partey as a single 6.

There's a reason Jorginho has been getting drafted in against the majority of big teams and Arteta has been having Odegard drop deeper in the build up.

Has more to do with Partey and Vieri being injured i would imagine. Rice was playing the exact role that Caicedo plays for us yesterday except they beat Liverpool convincingly while Caicedo dropped a disaster class against Wolves.

28 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Has more to do with Partey and Vieri being injured i would imagine. Rice was playing the exact role that Caicedo plays for us yesterday except they beat Liverpool convincingly while Caicedo dropped a disaster class against Wolves.

If Rice was tasked with playing on an Island being the lone man in the build up while our manager has his partner playing as an auxiliary winger he wouldn't have looked too clever either.

And believe it or not that's not even that big a critisism of him either, not even Kante would be performing under these circumstances.

Arteta has basically set up to nullify all of Rice's weaknesses and play to his strengths while Poch has done the total opposite to Caicedo.

Enzo has to play deep.  He is not a Fabregas or Modric.  He is De Jong maybe or maybe just a Jorghino?  I think he still has some value.  BUT he only ever wakes up when Caicedo is OFF the pitch, then he HAS to get involved more and he does get involved more in this scenario. AND he does make mistakes then, but he is also much more valuable then.

If we are looking at a 3-man midfield, he could do it.  Caicedo I have lost all hope for tbh.  AND Gallagher as much as I love his energy and enthusiasm he has zero end product.  No goals this season at all.   [we should have kept Mason Mount]. Palmer or Chukwuemenka in the midfield 3, yes, but neither of those lads are ready yet. Ready to be there for the full 90 mins that is.  They are still developing. AND This in a nutshell is what the problem is.

 

These two will be a great combo once they have a player alongside them who is not running around like a headless chicken 

4 hours ago, forbzy said:

I would have favored Rice over Caicedo. He may well have struggled in our system currently too. But for about the same price, Rice had several years more proven experience, had some connection to our club, and crucially would have brought some leadership to the team.

100%, though I assume if it was between us and Arsenal, who have CL football, he likely would've chosen them anyway

 

Chelsea midfielder Enzo Fernandez is considering a departure from the club, FootballTransfers has been told.The player's agents, including his long-time representative Uriel Perez, have begun talks with various clubs to explore potential opportunities for the talented midfielder....The youngster was described as a 'complete midfielder' when he signed but so far performances have shown that he is quite limited.

Another piece in the puzzle... as I've said a few times before he plays like a guy who doesn't want to be here.

 

We could have bought Rice , Maddison and Ward Prowse  for less than we paid for the pair of them a complete no brainer for me but then we do have idiots running our club

It's the perfect pivot under the right manager.

Pochettino is clueless and tactically one of the worst in the game.

Give Klopp these two in midfield with Szoboszlai and they would look a bargain at 100M each.

 

16 minutes ago, Bebe1980 said:

 

Chelsea midfielder Enzo Fernandez is considering a departure from the club, FootballTransfers has been told.The player's agents, including his long-time representative Uriel Perez, have begun talks with various clubs to explore potential opportunities for the talented midfielder....The youngster was described as a 'complete midfielder' when he signed but so far performances have shown that he is quite limited.

Another piece in the puzzle... as I've said a few times before he plays like a guy who doesn't want to be here.

 

Its a rumour with little substance but, if we could get out money back in him I wouldn't be fussed 

4 minutes ago, Blue72 said:

We could have bought Rice , Maddison and Ward Prowse  for less than we paid for the pair of them a complete no brainer for me but then we do have idiots running our club

And Poch would have had them playing miles apart and isolated, and we would have the exact same problems we do now. The players are not the problem.

I blame the system, not the players on this one. 

Come on... 

Enzo looked class in the world cup and caicedo looked class in brighton, bring them both to chelsea and into pochs system and they look lost. 

For more evidence if you compare enzos first season in chelsea compared to the second you will be see a big difference in quality. 

Caicedo was beating presses and making killer passes in Brighton, now hes doing sideway sht like the whole team...confidence issue but most likely a systematic issue. 

 

On 05/02/2024 at 16:46, TheCeleryKing said:

Enzo has to play deep.  He is not a Fabregas or Modric.  He is De Jong maybe or maybe just a Jorghino?  I think he still has some value.  BUT he only ever wakes up when Caicedo is OFF the pitch, then he HAS to get involved more and he does get involved more in this scenario. AND he does make mistakes then, but he is also much more valuable then.

If we are looking at a 3-man midfield, he could do it.  Caicedo I have lost all hope for tbh.  AND Gallagher as much as I love his energy and enthusiasm he has zero end product.  No goals this season at all.   [we should have kept Mason Mount]. Palmer or Chukwuemenka in the midfield 3, yes, but neither of those lads are ready yet. Ready to be there for the full 90 mins that is.  They are still developing. AND This in a nutshell is what the problem is.

Enzo played deep when he just arrived, had some big shoes to fill after Jorginho's departure but he did a great job. He was running the show from deep as the direct replacement for Jorginho despite the fact that at the time we really didn't have a team nor a manager, he could do that role for us that part from Jorginho let's face it, nobody could do, not Kovacic and not Kante either and Enzo could have been the upgrade to our midfield.

But then fame got into his head and he suddenly wanted to play higher up the pitch and changed his shirt number from #5 to #8. This move has its positives in terms of our attacking since he is passing the ball well but as a whole picture it caused us so many problems and it still does. There is no doubt in my mind that people that believed that he should be our new Lampard or KDB were simply way off the mark there, he simply isn't that kind of a player.

The fact that Enzo suddenly needs to develop so much has ruined his image, he was a great player before changing his role and he could have gradually learn to play more forward, after all this is what Fabregas did as he started from playing deep and gradually was so good that he could play anywhere.

Enzo has been sadly a classic case of mismanagement, he really was worth the money because he was a perfect replacement for Jorginho but after changing his role it is actually more probable that he forces his way out and leaves than becoming a world class #8.

Edited February 7, 20242 yr by Gol15

45 minutes ago, dkw said:

And Poch would have had them playing miles apart and isolated, and we would have the exact same problems we do now. The players are not the problem.

Yeah that's a given  but  this manager is a dead man walking Give me them 3 players for a third less than we paid for Enzo and Caicedo any day of the week and with a decent manager we would be a much better team than