A large part of that is undoing the Mourinho mentality, unfortunately. 

Seems no problem with Hazard. It is easy blaming Jose for everything.

Hazard, as the team's best attacking player, ended up doing his own thing anyway so really there wasn't much to change.

The problem with the 'Mourinho mentality' is that it over-emphasises structure in defence at the cost of under-emphasising structure in attack. A good attacking tactic is designed to get your best players in the the best position for them to get the best results. We haven't had that, admittedly not just under Mourinho but successive managers - and arguably, never.

 

@icecoolguy22 raises a good issue above; Willian doesn't support the attack because historically we've never been instructed to attack from both sides or focus on switching the play to create better changes. 

Edited September 13, 20169 yr by SydneyChelsea

5 hours ago, KonaKai Blue said:

We had Mata, Schurlle and KDB. All confident goal scorers who were sold. I swear to god I hate Jose.

As much as I back Jose and generally always will, admittedly this is the one thing I dont like about him.

If Mourinho takes a dislike to you then your out. The 3 you named plus Lukuka.

Chelsea are crying out for more creative players and we had them at the club.

Also I am one in the miniority who think Salah and Cuadrado was never given a fair go by Mourinho but succeed elsewhere. 

7 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

A large part of that is undoing the Mourinho mentality, unfortunately. 

Easy for Pep at City with his mentality. Pep plays both wingers high up the pitch to hold the opposition fullbacks back. The football is also ridicolously good.

Conte is the same sort of manager as Mourinho.

Willian is a safe player but we'll never win the Champions league with him. Hopefully Conte will get rid of Pedro and splash a bit of cash on upgrading the wing position as Hazard is our only top class winger.

1 hour ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Willian is a safe player but we'll never win the Champions league with him. Hopefully Conte will get rid of Pedro and splash a bit of cash on upgrading the wing position as Hazard is our only top class winger.

Upgrading to Griezmann hopefully.

2 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Willian is a safe player but we'll never win the Champions league with him. Hopefully Conte will get rid of Pedro and splash a bit of cash on upgrading the wing position as Hazard is our only top class winger.

We once beat two of the best teams in a generation to win the Champions League with Bosingwa at RB and David Luiz on one leg. 

Willian is the kind of player that you 100% want in your squad. Yes, he lacks some finer details, but the point of splashing on a Rodriguez or a Griezmann is so that they have ample backup and competition that strengthens the squad overall. Having the ability to field Griezmann alongside Costa and Hazard, with Batshuayi, Willian and Oscar for backup, is what will take our squad to the next level, as opposed to fielding Griezmann with only Marko Marin for backup.

1 hour ago, SydneyChelsea said:

We once beat two of the best teams in a generation to win the Champions League with Bosingwa at RB and David Luiz on one leg. 

Willian is the kind of player that you 100% want in your squad. Yes, he lacks some finer details, but the point of splashing on a Rodriguez or a Griezmann is so that they have ample backup and competition that strengthens the squad overall. Having the ability to field Griezmann alongside Costa and Hazard, with Batshuayi, Willian and Oscar for backup, is what will take our squad to the next level, as opposed to fielding Griezmann with only Marko Marin for backup.

I would be more than happy to keep Willian as a back up as i didn't mention selling him. Pedro on the other hand should be sold to raise funds for said world class player.

I challenge everyone who thinks Willian doesn't do anything to watch our game against Liverpool this Friday and count how many crosses everyone on the team puts in.  Willian and Ivanovic will be on top (providing Ivan plays on the right).  I know that is his job, being a winger, but I swear when other players end up in that position it's back around the square they go.  Willian is calculated and measured, he puts in a lot of good crosses (and if we had a second striker may be appreciated more) and also has a bit of range on his shooting while also changing it up from time to time, coming in side when he has to.  It's easy to be critical, but not everyone is a Hazard.  It's not everyone's role to take on players.  Conte loves width, it's someones job to provide that width.

I never see Willian do that many crosses and what he does do from either open play or set pieces haven't been that good. Same with Ivanovic, his crossing is s*** but can't expect much from him going forward.

Surely Willian is going to have a good game against Milner at LB.

Also crossing has low percentage of success. He can run at defenses but gets scared for some reason.

For 2 years now I've been saying he should be played in midfield. He has all the attributes to be a great midfielder. Look at De Bruyne and Silva at City, they've been converted into central midfielders under Pep, they play in a 3, with Fernandino at the base of that 3, with Nolito and Sterling on the flanks and Aguero up top. Now look at Iniesta, he was a good attacker, don't get me wrong, he used to play out wide as one of the front 3 for Barcelona in his younger days, but the great midfield 3, that will always be remembered, is the one that comprised Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta, with 3 forwards ahead of them. That's the role Willian should be playing for us, that Iniesta role. He's a good wide player but he'll never be a great wide player, because, like Iniesta, there isn't enough cutting edge. Iniesta hardly ever scores or makes the final pass. He makes the pass before the final pass and that's what Willian should be doing for us, in my humble opinion. I'll say it again, pace, tenacity, vision, technique, skill, energy, shooting ability, passing ability, dribbling ability, strength. I'm surprised no-one has ever put him in midfield. He lacks a killer instinct but that's okay, that's not his game, at least it would be okay if he played in midfield.

5 minutes ago, Davey Baby said:

Now look at Iniesta, he was a good attacker, don't get me wrong, he used to play out wide as one of the front 3 for Barcelona in his younger days, but the great midfield 3, that will always be remembered, is the one that comprised Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta, with 3 forwards ahead of them.

iniesta played as a lone anchor man several times as a 21-22 year old, most notably in the quarter finals of the cl against ac milan and the second half against arsenal in the finals. he has a defensive schooling that willian has not had yet (not saying willian can't acquire the skills necessary).

as for willians defensive contribution i think it's somewhat overrated. he does two things very well, 1) he presses hard and 2) he tracks back. however he's imo pretty undisciplined when we are established as a defense. he regularly fails to track runners and overlapping full backs, often leaving ivanovic in a one-vs-two situation.

i think conte, just like his football master lippi, is extremely demanding of his midfield players. not only in the sense that they should run a lot, but that they close and effectively shuts down the interior and most dangerous passing lanes in the middle of the pitch (an area becoming increasingly more important as team tend to overflow the center of the pitch).

as arrigo sacchi once said, pressing isn't about running and working hard, it's about controlling space. this is of course accentuated, since you won't control space without running, but there's a good amount of truth to it. 

i'm not disagreeing with you, but i don't think it's as easy as "willian is fast, has good stamina and runs alot", therefor he is a midfield player rather than a winger. i think it's much more complex than that.

I'm unconvinced that he could be an orthodox midfield player. but I don't understand the call for him to play there now of all times, when a) oscar is doing that job well (imo) and b) the two are rotating positions a lot anyway.

 

as far as de bruyne and silva go, they can play there because guadiola has used either both fulbacks or john stones as an auxiliary midfield player. but they're not really playing as midfielders- they are close to the striker (in what people refer to as the no.10 position now) and the de facto midfield is made up of other players (the two fullbacks or fernandinho and stones). with the ball city are playing a 361. 

There's a reason Oscar plays there and Willian doesn't, he reads the game much better instead of simply running around. 

@g3.7 The fullbacks were nice and wide against United though so I would say in that game they were closer to midfielders than how they normally set up. 

Oscar is a 6/7 out of 10 player for me. He is good as a backup but we need an upgrade if we truly want to be elite.

1 hour ago, Remodez said:

 

@g3.7 The fullbacks were nice and wide against United though so I would say in that game they were closer to midfielders than how they normally set up. 

they were very wide, but then with the ball they need to be so they can keep it. I'm saying it is either stones playing ten yards ahead of otamendi or the fullbacks in midfield (and fernandinho as the deepest defender). he's used both so far but given that those fullbacks are much poorer with the ball than stones I'd expect it to be stones 'in midfield' in the bigger games. it's easy for clichy and sagna if all they need to do is sit on the counter attacking options and never get pressed, but in those games I wouldn't expect it.

 

Willian is and has been a very useful player for us & I think most of us are very appreciative of his work ethic & contribution since he's been with us & long may it continue.

However, notions that he could, if given the chance & in some imagined way, become a midfield play-maker of the ilk of Iniesta or Silva are completely unrealistic. He simply doesn't have the spatial awareness, close control or passing abilities of either of those players and he never will.

 

19 hours ago, Davey Baby said:

For 2 years now I've been saying he should be played in midfield. He has all the attributes to be a great midfielder. Look at De Bruyne and Silva at City, they've been converted into central midfielders under Pep, they play in a 3, with Fernandino at the base of that 3, with Nolito and Sterling on the flanks and Aguero up top. Now look at Iniesta, he was a good attacker, don't get me wrong, he used to play out wide as one of the front 3 for Barcelona in his younger days, but the great midfield 3, that will always be remembered, is the one that comprised Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta, with 3 forwards ahead of them. That's the role Willian should be playing for us, that Iniesta role. He's a good wide player but he'll never be a great wide player, because, like Iniesta, there isn't enough cutting edge. Iniesta hardly ever scores or makes the final pass. He makes the pass before the final pass and that's what Willian should be doing for us, in my humble opinion. I'll say it again, pace, tenacity, vision, technique, skill, energy, shooting ability, passing ability, dribbling ability, strength. I'm surprised no-one has ever put him in midfield. He lacks a killer instinct but that's okay, that's not his game, at least it would be okay if he played in midfield.

He lacks in the above highlighted skills. When do you ever see Willian score many goals from open play or make a killer through ball and i'm not even sure why you tried to mention strength. He's a workhorse that can hit the byline and cut the ball back when need be. The lad can't even beat the first man from his corners.

A big Willian supporter but the one very frustrating thing about him is his tendancy to slow things down when he gets to the crucial positions.

It doesn't help that he's partnered with Ivanovic on the right flank. 

The thing is, he CAN be direct. He just plays it safe too often. 

On 13 September 2016 at 05:07, icecoolguy22 said:

Considering we we loaning out 30+ players a season, it's amazing we sold KDB without a second thought. Surely, he could do with a loan move if he was deemed lazy or incompetent ( which proved to be wrong )

Back to Willian, he's just too happy to let Hazard doing all the work. I saw a number of occasions where Hazard sucked in a few defenders then send the ball to Willian on the other side, Willian just happy to wait and see instead of taking on the last defender when he had time and room.

Don't get me started on Oscar, always a 6-7/10 player on his good day.

KDB didn't want to go out on loan, he wanted to leave and who could blame him?.

wrong thread lol

Edited September 16, 20169 yr by Xfaxtor

Can this lad please leave the club. He's lived off those freekicks last season. Moses offers more offensively.

He was better than the invisible man Oscar, other than that he was about as poor as most of the team today, don't see any reason to single him out.

6 minutes ago, Jonty said:

He was better than the invisible man Oscar, other than that he was about as poor as most of the team today, don't see any reason to single him out.

Really? Did you see how many times he dribbled into men, not to mention his inability to clear the first man from any given cross or corner. Shocking player.