11 minutes ago, robdog said:

 

Boss! It is crazy how unappreciated he is on this forum. Arsenal, United and Liverpool would kill for a player like him in their team and it would strengthen them to another level. He is not excellent every week but he is one of our most important players. While Kante is the better one at making tackles, Matic is the more reliable one at keeping hold of the ball and keeping possession. He treated Arsenal like a ragged doll. They complement each other really well and his use of the ball is really underrated too.

Edited February 7, 20179 yr by STATS

I can see why Pogba was so expensive when you look at those stats. Kanté is a master of the tackling and retaining possession, Fàbregas is a master of creativity, but how many guys out there can do both at such a level. Past Pogba, Verratti and perhaps Vidal i cant think of any. That sort of calibre of player is the player we need to improve, yes we can use Matic or Fàbregas to pair Kanté, but i feel that either one leaves us lacking in one area, whether that be creativity or solidarity. 

That was why Conte wanted Nainggolan

Matic did play really well but against a midfield of Ox and Coquelin it's not really much competition. Any team that presses and Matic does struggle because he wants to much time on the ball.

Saying Matic is more reliable at keeping hold of the ball is just as much his weakness because he loses the ball a lot when pressed.

He has been very rated for football fans around the world. 
Interesting that we as fans of the club don't really rate him, but we all know that he's one of our keys to success this season. I asked a lot of friends and read forums of different clubs, most of them are really dreaming about Kante and Matic in their central. 
When he puts a bad performance we all know how to speak negatively about him, but when he puts a good performance only a few of us giving him some credit. Unfair towards him. We all know that his passing ability isn't best, his reaction with the ball isn't that fast, but let's not forget how many important things he offers us. 
If we're going to win the title this season, then he won 2 titles in 4 years. 

If any team dreams of Matic, let them give us 40m for him so they can have their dream signing. Chalobah or Fabregas won't play bad in that position. We will add about 20m to it and we already have a good chance of signing Sanchez or Griezmann.

1 hour ago, Ernie_blue said:

because he loses the ball a lot when pressed.

i don't think this is true and i'm guessing it's because matic' long legs makes him seem clumsier than he is.

over the whole season, matic is dispossesed once every game on an average. kante, for example, is disposessed 0,9 times, so theres not a lot in that statistic.

as for passing percentage, matic hits his passes with an accuracy of 87,9%, with many of these in a forward direction (difficult passes). kante hits them at a percentage of 87,7% (still very good), but doesn't try to penetrate the opposition nearly as often as matic does (conte even said he hits too many vertical passes).

 

if you want to look at our games against the two hardest pressing teams in the league, spurs and liverpool, then the stats continue to disprove the notion than matic is poor on the ball relative to our other players.

against liverpool, matic passes with an accuracy of 80%, the highest on our team that day. kante passes with an "accuracy" of 67,5%. the same game matic is dispossesed 1 time, where as kante is dispossesed 3 times.

against spurs, matic has a passing accuracy of 94,9%, again the highest on our team for that day, whilst kante passes with an accuracy of 76,7%. in this game matic is dispossesed 1 time, kante 4 times.

both against liverpool and spurs the statistics show that kante lost the ball far far more frequently than matic in the games against the two hardest running teams in the league. 

It's all about pressing with Matic, Arsenal didn't press him and he looked a pretty good player, Spurs/Liverpool did and his limitations showed. I remember the Liverpool game, he tried to get rid off the ball as soon as he got it.  Passing accuracy is pretty misleading unless we take into considerations the type of passes, you could have a defender pass at 98% if he all does is pass the ball back to GK for a long punt. I expect teams to target him, especially those in the top half.

27 minutes ago, opinionsarelike said:

i don't think this is true and i'm guessing it's because matic' long legs makes him seem clumsier than he is.

over the whole season, matic is dispossesed once every game on an average. kante, for example, is disposessed 0,9 times, so theres not a lot in that statistic.

as for passing percentage, matic hits his passes with an accuracy of 87,9%, with many of these in a forward direction (difficult passes). kante hits them at a percentage of 87,7% (still very good), but doesn't try to penetrate the opposition nearly as often as matic does (conte even said he hits too many vertical passes).

 

if you want to look at our games against the two hardest pressing teams in the league, spurs and liverpool, then the stats continue to disprove the notion than matic is poor on the ball relative to our other players.

against liverpool, matic passes with an accuracy of 80%, the highest on our team that day. kante passes with an "accuracy" of 67,5%. the same game matic is dispossesed 1 time, where as kante is dispossesed 3 times.

against spurs, matic has a passing accuracy of 94,9%, again the highest on our team for that day, whilst kante passes with an accuracy of 76,7%. in this game matic is dispossesed 1 time, kante 4 times.

both against liverpool and spurs the statistics show that kante lost the ball far far more frequently than matic in the games against the two hardest running teams in the league. 

Really not a big fan of all these stats. Should just keep it simple, goals scored, assists and clean sheets. How do stats mark down if a player has been dispossessed or not? Might be different between each person, website, pundit etc.

Problem is if you have two midfielders, one gives the ball away 10 times and the other 2. The one who did it twice decided to do something in a more dangerous situation and cost a goal, chance etc. Stats don't show that. I know who I would be more pissed of with.

When a player is being dispossessed is the player who got dispossessed 4 times because he was in the corner with 3 opposition players around him, did he get dispossessed because of a rubbish pass. They just have too much finer details involved for me to see much relevance to it.

Liverpool game as an example I saw a player who didn't help his defence out. When Liverpool had there attacking moments which they always will and kept constantly attacking the ball fell to Matic and he kept holding onto the ball too long and mis placing a pass. I don't need a stat website to tell me what I saw.

10 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

Really not a big fan of all these stats. Should just keep it simple, goals scored, assists and clean sheets.

do you agree that matic has been a part in our best run of games ever as a football club?

do you agree that matic is our second best passer/creator since he has 6 assists, more than anyone except for fabregas who also has 6?

 

because if you want to argue this way, the constant criticism against matic becomes even less factual/nuanced and more based on perception and assumption.

1 hour ago, opinionsarelike said:

do you agree that matic has been a part in our best run of games ever as a football club?

do you agree that matic is our second best passer/creator since he has 6 assists, more than anyone except for fabregas who also has 6?

 

because if you want to argue this way, the constant criticism against matic becomes even less factual/nuanced and more based on perception and assumption.

If you read this thread and the alonso thread together you would guess that are top of the league playing with 9 men every game 

12 hours ago, opinionsarelike said:

i don't think this is true and i'm guessing it's because matic' long legs makes him seem clumsier than he is.

over the whole season, matic is dispossesed once every game on an average. kante, for example, is disposessed 0,9 times, so theres not a lot in that statistic.

as for passing percentage, matic hits his passes with an accuracy of 87,9%, with many of these in a forward direction (difficult passes). kante hits them at a percentage of 87,7% (still very good), but doesn't try to penetrate the opposition nearly as often as matic does (conte even said he hits too many vertical passes).

 

if you want to look at our games against the two hardest pressing teams in the league, spurs and liverpool, then the stats continue to disprove the notion than matic is poor on the ball relative to our other players.

against liverpool, matic passes with an accuracy of 80%, the highest on our team that day. kante passes with an "accuracy" of 67,5%. the same game matic is dispossesed 1 time, where as kante is dispossesed 3 times.

against spurs, matic has a passing accuracy of 94,9%, again the highest on our team for that day, whilst kante passes with an accuracy of 76,7%. in this game matic is dispossesed 1 time, kante 4 times.

both against liverpool and spurs the statistics show that kante lost the ball far far more frequently than matic in the games against the two hardest running teams in the league. 

Problem is that they are playing together. If they were competing for the same position as a DM it wouldnt be a problem. Having two midfielders who both struggle stringing passes together when pressed is far from ideal if you want to compete with the truly elite teams in Europe. Off course Matic is good enough to play for us as evident by our league position. The lack of passing ability in Central midfield is at the moment our biggest weakness and the top teams have shown they know how to exploit it.

1 hour ago, opinionsarelike said:

do you agree that matic has been a part in our best run of games ever as a football club?

do you agree that matic is our second best passer/creator since he has 6 assists, more than anyone except for fabregas who also has 6?

 

because if you want to argue this way, the constant criticism against matic becomes even less factual/nuanced and more based on perception and assumption.

Going by that then you think Matic is Chelseas second best passer/creator in the squad after Fabregas, does anyone truly believe that?

Before Costa, Hazard, Willian, Pedro, Luiz, Moses, Alonso.

Still you don't need to be throwing stats around to prove a point. Watching a football match you see alot more. By stats I could watch a player have a bad game and cost a goal but because he played 100 5yd passes and got 100% record that's all that matters. 

There's no harm in pointing out a players weaknees,  every player has them. F*** me how dare someone mention a Chelseas players weakness.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Xfaxtor said:

Problem is that they are playing together. If they were competing for the same position as a DM it wouldnt be a problem. Having two midfielders who both struggle stringing passes together when pressed is far from ideal if you want to compete with the truly elite teams in Europe. Off course Matic is good enough to play for us as evident by our league position. The lack of passing ability in Central midfield is at the moment our biggest weakness and the top teams have shown they know how to exploit it.

I don't know another top club that plays two DMs, but then no other English club is top of the league.

Playing 2 suits the system though and dropping one DM for Fabregas means you have to be more open and have more initiative on attack.

Both Kante and Matic are let down by there passing but at the same time no one would expect a DM to be hitting 30 yr balls like Leboeuf. I think maybe the criticism is aimed more at Matic because the majority of people would pick Kante as there DM. Using the Liverpool game as an example a player like Fab would give the ball away less so there would be less constant pressure on the defence. Then there would be set pieces, passing and more chance to give Hazard and Costa some service. Just my opinion.

Not to be negative but next season will be a much more difficult one than this year. 

4 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

I don't know another top club that plays two DMs, but then no other English club is top of the league.

Why are they both classed as defensive midfielders? 

Does Fabregas play as a defensive midfielder if he plays in place of Matic? 

Matic has contributed 6 assists to date, he must be venturing forward a far bit to have directly contributed to that many goals so far, no? 

1. you said that matic is poor under pressure, i countered you with objective stats to show that that might not be true.

2. you then said that these stats doesn't matter, that the only stats that matters is goals, assists and clean sheets.

3. when your trifecta of stats inconveniently are used against you, you imply that i'm the one trying to cherrypick stats.

4. you then finish off by getting angry and reverts back to your tried and "true" opinion.

shall we rinse and repeat?

14 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Why are they both classed as defensive midfielders? 

Does Fabregas play as a defensive midfielder if he plays in place of Matic? 

Matic has contributed 6 assists to date, he must be venturing forward a far bit to have directly contributed to that many goals so far, no? 

Are Matic and Kante classed as attacking midfielders?

What are these assists? You know an assists can be a 2 yrd pass then someone smacks it in from 30 yrds.

16 minutes ago, opinionsarelike said:

1. you said that matic is poor under pressure, i countered you with objective stats to show that that might not be true.

2. you then said that these stats doesn't matter, that the only stats that matters is goals, assists and clean sheets.

3. when your trifecta of stats inconveniently are used against you, you imply that i'm the one trying to cherrypick stats.

4. you then finish off by getting angry and reverts back to your tried and "true" opinion.

shall we rinse and repeat?

Assist stats don't show how often someone gives the ball away or dispossessed. The majority of stats do not show the finer details in each circumstance. Like I said Ozil last season was getting assists for passing to Sanchez and he would score from 30 yrds. That's not an assist in my eyes. Have you looked at Matics assists?

All depends on the website, skysports or fans opinion.

If Luiz had a bad game I don't see Neville saying yeah but going by a stat website Luiz had 90% passing success, 85% tackling etc. He goes by what he sees on the pitch. 

I have not seen any stat website but I know Luiz has been superb in a back 3 this year, don't need stats to tell me. Would I think he had been poor if a stat website told me his average tackling was 45%, that would be a no from what I have watched.

9 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Are Matic and Kante classed as attacking midfielders?

What are these assists? You know an assists can be a 2 yrd pass then someone smacks it in from 30 yrds.

You don't have to pigeon hole a midfielder as attacking or defensive. They can just be a central midfielder. 

Below are the assists. A variety of different ones in there. 

Assist #1 vs Burnley

 

Assist #2 vs Liverpool 

 

 

Assist #3 vs Leceister I cannot find

Assist #4 vs Manchester United 

 

 

Assist #5 vs Everton

 

Assist #6 vs Spurs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nice work getting the videos Forevercarefree. This is just me but I find it hard to give an assist for goals like the ones against Burnley and Spurs. They was moments of brilliance rather than anything good before the goal. This is not just Chelsea but was doing my head in with Ozil last year who I think is well overrated.

Still, Mati? has earned his spot in Chelsea's lineup. He has been the best midfielder in England this season.

— Breaking The Lines (@breakingIines) February 7, 2017

 

Not many players can claim to be as complete as Mati?. Superb in big games, proven in two leagues, strong, metronome, mobile, proven winner.

— Breaking The Lines (@breakingIines) February 7, 2017

 

Too bold perhaps?

Matic been back to his best this season imo

Hope he gets one over on that thug Ashley Barnes on the weekend

 

 

The saying is 'your own fans are your harshest critics'.

Imagine if Conte actually went with a lot of fans views. We could be in a whole different position now. I remember in the summer a lot of fans wanted Matic gone and it looked like a huge possibility he could go Juve. He is so unappreciated on here it is unbelievable. Kante understandably gets more rave reviews but even he is prone to losing the ball in possession. Matic can be vulnerable when being pressed but in general he is like Dembele at times. It is really difficult to take the ball off him and opposition players are literally frightened of his presence. I always feel there is a strong secure presence with Matic in the team.

For me personally pointing out a players weakness which is someone's opinion is not being a harsh critic. Last year when he was terrible I was one of very few people who still wanted Matic to play in the team, I rate him highly as a DM. Kante can also give the ball away alot too. That was apart of my point and maybe others. 

Fabregas and Matic won the title together 2 seasons ago. Last year the whole team was terrible but for some strange reason the combo of Fabregas with a defensive midfielder cannot work now. Why have two midfielders who can win the ball but there distribution is not great when you have the best playmaker in the prem sitting on the bench. Fabregas could fit into the team IMO because Chelsea now play a back 3 and have Kante, they also have 2 wing backs. The team is already very defensive before Matic is put into the equation. Also most teams play with one forward.

By the way I know we are top and I'm not judging Contes tactics before someone responds with that. With Fabregas you would have more control of the ball, someone who won't give it back to the opposition so much when your under immense pressure in a football match and it gives players like Hazard and Costa more of an distribution. Fabregas can spring a pass within a moment out of nothing. Yes he don't have the height or defensive mind of Matic but there's the advantages and disadvantages of each player.

Chelsea are a counter attacking team so I understand why Matic plays and defiantly against the big teams. I think Fabregas can be used more in some of the easier home games.

21 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

Going by that then you think Matic is Chelseas second best passer/creator in the squad after Fabregas, does anyone truly believe that?

Before Costa, Hazard, Willian, Pedro, Luiz, Moses, Alonso.

Still you don't need to be throwing stats around to prove a point. Watching a football match you see alot more. By stats I could watch a player have a bad game and cost a goal but because he played 100 5yd passes and got 100% record that's all that matters. 

There's no harm in pointing out a players weaknees,  every player has them. F*** me how dare someone mention a Chelseas players weakness.

 

 

See Ernie, you can never 'prove' a point without objective criteria. Not in science, not in a debate, possibly only in politics or religion. Your interpretation of a player's performance when you watch a game is subjective and your opinion. You cannot communicate this opinion except in a saying that you know what you saw and that he had a good game. Even if you say that you saw him lose the ball several times and that was the reason, you are resorting to stats. I hope you realise that. 

You seem to have got it into your head that all stats are bad, it is almost like a fad. Of course very simplistic stats are inadequate, and they give you only very limited insight. For example (just a random example with made up numbers), say corners from Fabregas, Willian and Pedro have led to 4, 6 and 1 goals respectively over some unit of time. Does this tell you who the better corner taker is? No, not really. How many corners have they taken? Say 24, 42 and 20 each. Success rates of 0.16, 0.14 and 0.05. So is Fab the best corner taker? Maybe but maybe not. What proportion were claimed by or punched out by the keeper? What proportion hit the first man? Which players score the most from corners and what proportion of each of their corners were each of them available for? What about when leading or chasing a game? The height and defending prowess of the opposition. All these and more can be brought together to get a more nuanced understanding of what's going on. Of course even one of these stats has more meaning than you saying that you have seen it with your own eyes and Fab takes the best corners. Why? No answer.

The general assumption is that our mind can only process so much and form hypotheses but statistics can give you evidence to support or reject these hypotheses and most importantly communicate your findings conclusively. All the good science, all the technological advances, all the big money making businesses and even the best football coaches are built on a foundation of strong statistical analysis. 

Before you try to make a point without stats the next time, realise that there is no point and just a subjective opinion. Even the simplest stats makes a stronger point than a statement without backing and the burden is then on you to find a counter argument using stats.

Completely dissing stats every time may be the 'in' thing to do but it is a view without any nuance and lacking in thought.

Think about this. No offence intended.

Edited February 9, 20179 yr by ashwin

The flip side of statistics is that limited stats can be very misleading. But it is up to the reader to be discerning enough to separate these from compelling evidence.

Stats can be just as manipulated to prove a point. Just as an example say if Kante had 80% passing success and Matic 90%. What if in that 10% of miss placed passes Matic conceded 10 chances to the opposition but Kante 1. 

People will never see that because the person in question is trying to prove a point with Matics passing but I could manipulate those stats to look the other way if I wanted.

The problem is i don't know how stat websites work. When Matic gets an assist for a 5 yrd pass on the halfway line for a Hazaed goal that's when I find them flawed. I could be watching a football game and see Matic get dispossessed 3 times in the first half, a stats opinion might be it was just once. 

Just not a big fan of stats, I don't mind simple ones like Costa bangs in 30 goals in a prem season and is top scorer.