Spot on, youth has to be developed and integrated into the first team carefully.

I also don't get why so many are saying to sell Pedro. Guys played well recently and it's his first season in this country.

Jose should have done that. Guss should have done that. We had 3 years to start doing that and build towards a dynasty, instead we bought players like salah, Cuadrado, pedro. Now people want Perisic. Really? I mean could not we just bring moses back from loan?

 

Anyways, while i Agree that youth need to be integrated, they also need to be given an oppurtunity when it calls for. We will be having a 45 game season next year. Do we need Oscar, pedro, mikel, remy on the bench? Or can their roles be fulfilled by RLC, Musonda, Mvg, Traore. I feel, they have the ability and the capability to do it. I dont want RLC getting 2 minutes when we are leading 4-0 at home against Villa. I want to see how well he plays coming on at 60th minute with the game at 1-1. That would help him reaching his potential and becoming the player that we all want him to become.

 

As for pedro, I think he is bang average. Even moses got better numbers than him in his first season with us. He is 28, to we really want such players in our team? Who have no future and in a couple of years, will officially be tagged as "dead wood" and whats worse is with no resale value. What would be even worse is that we would lose a potentially brilliant player like musonda because we had someone like Pedro in our team eating away his minutes. If we had CL, I would definitely have taken Pedro and his experience. But, we dont. We have already seen how much he lacks in physicality and shocking even the technical aspect of the game. 

 

Another thing thats important is that, I dont expect us to win the PL. I want us to get an identity. Having players like Pedro and buying players like perisic is repeating the same mistakes that we have done over and over again since 2010. Even if we go a couple of years trophyless, I would take it, IF it means, getting a proper identity and youth integration (mainly RLC, Musonda, Ake (should anyways be our starting LB next year), traore, andreas) having decent roles in the squad.

I agree next season is ideal for us to integrate some youth into the squad as we won't have any European football. As we saw this season though just losing the personalities of Cech and Drogba was a huge blow. We need to keep experienced guys around can't just have a load of kids taking over the experienced players roles.

Call me crazy aswell but with no European football we should totally be aiming to win the league. I'm not saying we'll win it but the fact we don't really have anything else to play for (of course there are the cups mind) we should at least aim for those heights.

I don't agree on Pedro though, the whole side has been poor this season and he's stood out at times. So to me I'd say we'd probably have seen better of him in a better performing Chelsea side. Which you can say about most players. It's also his first season in the PL and that is something people need to remember.

Edited May 9, 201610 yr by Bobbywoodhogan

Without a second thought, it's a long season and Perisic in particular would give us a direct attacking threat that Hazard can't give us (he can do for us what Ayew does for Swansea, drifts in from the flank and 'doubles up' as a second striker). Either Perisic or Arnautovic, anyway. I'd rather we have 2 28 year olds as 'backup' then gamble on youth players with no proven pedigree.

Fair enough then. Lets agree to disagree. 

For me, 45 game season, is not long. Buying players like perisic (who will again need "settling time" and probably the same excuse as pedro when he fails) is just redundant.

You say youth players with no pedigree, i ask, how do they get that pedigree? 

Lukaku scoring 20 odd goals with wba and everton each was not enough. Kdb winning the bundesliga young player of the season was not enough. 

Bertrand having a solid 2012/13 at chelsea itself was not enough. well what is? This is exactly why we have not had a youth player coming through the ranks since JT.

 

And I not just saying this to you. So please dont take personally. This goes down to the board, the management and everyone related to the club. 

And look where all this has got us. No managerial stability, no direction, no identity, no youth players. But honestly, its not surprising. We went through the same thing in 11/12, only difference, we had players like Lamps, DD, JT, Cech to get us thru and win a CL which ended up in us getting the likes of eden. This time we are not so lucky. We actually might end up aiming high but buying average players and falling towards mediocrity like liverpool meanwhile our youth players with no proven pedigree (yet the most successful youth academy in the world for the past 6 years) rot in a loan system that can best be described as a "black hole for potential". 

 

I know their will be a lot of risks. I know that. But i am willing to take those risks. I am willing to go a couple of years without a trophy to see a whole bunch of players like RLC, musonda, ake, traore, andreas come through to the team. And there is your core for a whole decade. Not a year, not 2 seasons, but long term. 

Still, each to his own

Edited May 9, 201610 yr by didierforever

You say youth players with no pedigree, i ask, how do they get that pedigree? 

Lukaku scoring 20 odd goals with wba and everton each was not enough. Kdb winning the bundesliga young player of the season was not enough. 

Bertrand having a solid 2012/13 at chelsea itself was not enough. well what is? This is exactly why we have not had a youth player coming through the ranks since JT.

 

And I not just saying this to you. So please dont take personally. This goes down to the board, the management and everyone related to the club. 

And look where all this has got us. No managerial stability, no direction, no identity, no youth players. But honestly, its not surprising. We went through the same thing in 11/12, only difference, we had players like Lamps, DD, JT, Cech to get us thru and win a CL which ended up in us getting the likes of eden. This time we are not so lucky. We actually might end up aiming high but buying average players and falling towards mediocrity like liverpool meanwhile our youth players with no proven pedigree (yet the most successful youth academy in the world for the past 6 years) rot in a loan system that can best be described as a "black hole for potential". 

 

How do youth players get that pedigree? Simply put by going out on loan and achieving a level of performance that implies they could help us be competitive (as Lukaku/KdB did for their respective clubs). I'll make the point again that Musonda is playing for a team that has scored the fewest number of goals in La Liga this year and has 14 appearances, 1 goal 1 assist, same with Solanke - 7 goals in a piss poor division (also yet to score for England U21's coincidentally). They're considerably younger and have time on their side, but they're nowhere near Lukaku/KdB's 'level' (I don't think they'll reach the same level personally).

 

Perisic has 34 appearances, 7 goals, 5 assists (Inter are currently 4th in Serie A, Betis 14th).

 

As to your point about 'identity'... what is identity? Giving youth a chance in one of the most competitive senior leagues in world football? For me, that's a recipe for mediocrity. I'll be content if we don't make top 4 next year, we have no divine right to be successful, but what is unacceptable for me is watching a team that are made to look like mugs week in week out. Aston Villa settled for unproven pedigree and look where that got them.

Edited May 9, 201610 yr by the special one

Also the same league that Suarez, Daley Blind, Wijnaldum, Eriksen and Vertonghen have come from in recent years and shone in the prem. Also, it wouldn't be hard for a player to shine at Vitesse as they're sh*te tbh. But for MVG to be one of the best players at the biggest club in the league says a lot. 

 

Were any of these players rubbish in the prem before going back? No? Ok then

Were any of these players rubbish in the prem before going back? No? Ok then

 

MVG wasn't rubbish in the prem, Hughes even said he wanted to keep him. They only cancelled his loan because they signed Imbula and couldn't guarantee him first team football. Ok then

MVG wasn't rubbish in the prem, Hughes even said he wanted to keep him. They only cancelled his loan because they signed Imbula and couldn't guarantee him first team football. Ok then

 

Personally I don't think it's any coincidence that Stoke's performance improved considerably after MvG was dropped (albeit Hughes was playing him in the pivot). Hughes may have said he wanted to keep him, but to play week in week out? My guess is he wanted him to stay as a squad player.

Edited May 9, 201610 yr by the special one

How do youth players get that pedigree? Simply put by going out on loan and achieving a level of performance that implies they could help us be competitive (as Lukaku/KdB did for their respective clubs). I'll make the point again that Musonda is playing for a team that has scored the fewest number of goals in La Liga this year and has 14 appearances, 1 goal 1 assist, same with Solanke - 7 goals in a piss poor division (also yet to score for England U21's coincidentally). They're considerably younger and have time on their side, but they're nowhere near Lukaku/KdB's 'level' (I don't think they'll reach the same level personally).

 

Perisic has 34 appearances, 7 goals, 5 assists (Inter are currently 4th in Serie A, Betis 14th).

 

As to your point about 'identity'... what is identity? Giving youth a chance in one of the most competitive senior leagues in world football? For me, that's a recipe for mediocrity. I'll be content if we don't make top 4 next year, we have no divine right to be successful, but what is unacceptable for me is watching a team that are made to look like mugs week in week out. Aston Villa settled for unproven pedigree and look where that got them.

Pedro moved from Barcelona to chelsea - so he should be allowed a year of average performances because he moved to a new league and other excuses. Now lets compare it to our "youth" who are every year sent on a loan to some other country and some other club. Who have no stability and yet we demand that they reach levels of greatness in one year out on loan. That seems like a very doable request.

In this post you say, that the youth can gain that pedigree by performing at a good enough level (has not musonda already done that?) and yet in a post in the same thread you want MVg, who has been brilliant for half a season with the champions of netherlands, should be sold? 

 

Perisic is 27, would cost some weird sum of money. He is at the peak of his career (which in all honesty and with all due respect is not much). Meanwhile, we have a 19 year old Musonda, who has the potential to be world class. 

Also, salah has 13 goals and 8 assists. And we all remember how "good" he was.

 

Giving youth an oppurtunity is a sign of mediocrity? So barca, bayern, ATM,Bvb are all "mediocre"?  Barcelona settled for unproven pedigree when they replaced ronaldinho with messi or busquets with YAYA. Look how that turned out? 

And i am not sure if you have been watching chelsea this season. We have been made to look like mugs by almost every team that we have played. And these are all "proven" players. 

Edited May 9, 201610 yr by didierforever

Pedro moved from Barcelona to chelsea - so he should be allowed a year of average performances because he moved to a new league and other excuses. Now lets compare it to our "youth" who are every year sent on a loan to some other country and some other club. Who have no stability and yet we demand that they reach levels of greatness in one year out on loan. That seems like a very doable request.

In this post you say, that the youth can gain that pedigree by performing at a high level and yet in a post in the same thread you want MVg, who has been brilliant for half a season with the champions of netherlands, should be sold? 

 

Perisic is 27, would cost some weird sum of money. He is at the peak of his career (which in all honesty and with all due respect is not much). Meanwhile, we have a 19 year old Musonda, who has the potential to be world class. 

Also, salah has 13 goals and 8 assists. And we all remember how "good" he was.

 

Giving youth an oppurtunity is a sign of mediocrity? So barca, bayern, ATM,Bvb are all "mediocre"?  Barcelona settled for unproven pedigree when they replaced ronaldinho with messi or busquets with YAYA. Look how that turned out? 

And i am not sure if you have been watching chelsea this season. We have been made to look like mugs by almost every team that we have played. And these are all "proven" players. 

 

I didn't say giving youth an opportunity is a sign of mediocrity - I alluded that it represents a risk that the team's performance will suffer as a result of mediocrity (sorry for the waffle, I'm a risk analyst by profession). For me our youth setup is incomparable to Barca/Bayern/ATM/BvB - they all have respective competitive B/C teams for which they can transfer prospects to gain senior experience. You have a valid point about Messi/Busquets, but Yaya had over 100 games in Belgium/France before transferring to Barca, Dele Alli over 70 appearances for MK Dons, Kane over 40 appearances in the lower leagues, etc etc

 

As you say we'll have to agree to disagree. For me "potential talent" is no indicator of a team's future performance at senior level. There's a reason why Mourinho has been successful everywhere he's been, and it wasn't by giving youth a chance (though fwiw I would like to see Bamford and/or Solanke and Perica and/or Izzy Brown back next year, I think they'd benefit by being 'mentored' by Diego and hopefully Mandzukic).

Edited May 9, 201610 yr by the special one

I didn't say giving youth an opportunity is a sign of mediocrity - I alluded that it represents a risk that the team's performance will suffer as a result of mediocrity (sorry for the waffle, I'm a risk analyst by profession). For me our youth setup is incomparable to Barca/Bayern/ATM/BvB - they all have respective competitive B/C teams for which they can transfer prospects to gain senior experience. You have a valid point about Messi/Busquets, but Yaya had over 100 games in Belgium/France before transferring to Barca, Dele Alli over 70 appearances for MK Dons, Kane over 40 appearances in the lower leagues, etc etc

 

As you say we'll have to agree to disagree. For me "potential talent" is no indicator of a team's future performance at senior level. There's a reason why Mourinho has been successful everywhere he's been, and it wasn't by giving youth a chance (though fwiw I would like to see Bamford and/or Solanke and Perica and/or Izzy Brown back next year, I think they'd benefit by being 'mentored' by Diego and hopefully Mandzukic).

I am a data analyst by profession. Maybe we can exchange notes someday. :)

Kane has played 88 games in his career for 5 different clubs. And I only want him to replace Ivanovic who currently is championship level. I am pretty sure the same would be true for Baker. 

While i do agree about Barca/Bayern/atm/bvb, there are a lot of successful clubs like arsenal, pool, united and spurs who have got tons of good players to come through their ranks. 

Jose had a lot of "instant" success. There is a reason he burns out after 3 years. There is literally no longevity in his thinking and plans. While I love the guy, he has some glaring shortcomings as seen by his stint at RM and chelsea. 

MVG wasn't rubbish in the prem, Hughes even said he wanted to keep him. They only cancelled his loan because they signed Imbula and couldn't guarantee him first team football. Ok then

Was a complete nobody for a mid table side, then off to the Eresfivisie and he looks great. Means absolutely nothing

I am a data analyst by profession. Maybe we can exchange notes someday. :)

Kane has played 88 games in his career for 5 different clubs. And I only want him to replace Ivanovic who currently is championship level. I am pretty sure the same would be true for Baker.

While i do agree about Barca/Bayern/atm/bvb, there are a lot of successful clubs like arsenal, pool, united and spurs who have got tons of good players to come through their ranks.

Jose had a lot of "instant" success. There is a reason he burns out after 3 years. There is literally no longevity in his thinking and plans. While I love the guy, he has some glaring shortcomings as seen by his stint at RM and chelsea.

Who have Arsenal brought though that can be considered a true success though?

Who have Arsenal brought though that can be considered a true success though?

Depends on how specific you want to be I guess but the likes of Cole, Fabregas, Ramsey, Wilshere, Gibbs and Bellerin off the top of my head have been a success. 

Did they not get Cesc from Barca's set up?

Duadrado and MvG finish the season with league champions medals whilst us as their parent club are just hoping the Rat Munchers don't do the double over them this week.

Work that one out.

Did they not get Cesc from Barca's set up?

At 16. We are counting Ake, Andreas as our "youth". So its only fair to call cesc as their youth.

MvG has been steadily improving since his return from what was a really bad injury, and I expect this to continue. Personally I thought he was decent at Stoke but wasn't really suited to either of the roles he was being played in and I think a large part of his upturn in form is due to him returning to a role which is far more suited to his abilities and playing style and that it doesn't lie solely with the fact that the Eredivisie is a lower quality league.

MvG like Lampard is far more suited to a box to box midfield role, where he gets to make his run and bursts on the ball from deeper. And whilst he didn't perform badly at Stoke he was being used as either a more defensive minded midfielder (these actually turned more into defenders when Stokes form began its upturn with the likes of Geoff Cameron being the first choice on the team sheet) or a creative pivot in the 4-2-3-1 (for which players like Bojan a far more suited), and it is no wonder that when Bojan became fit and Hughes changed the formation so that the midfielders turned into shields for defensive cover that MvG was slowly pushed into more of a squad role (all though it has to be said that he was still ahead of Adam in the pecking order).

Personally I think that if we are going to return to the 4-3-3 formation or maybe even the 3-5-2 formation than MvG would be a great addition to the squad (definitely an upgrade on Mikel anyway) and I reckon he could even find himself pushing for a starting spot as the season goes on. However if we are going to stick with the 4-2-3-1 formation then it is probably best to sell him or loan him back to PSV as others have suggested.

  

The problem is that I reckon a lot of these players would flourish given an opportunity here but because they don't set the world on fire while on loan some fans make their mind up that they're worthless at the age of 22.

I think moses salah and feruz need to go.

There is loads that I would get rid of.

But I think Bamford.rlc.ake and some of the 20+yo need to be given a shot or released

Salah is already gone.

I think moses salah and feruz need to go.

There is loads that I would get rid of.

But I think Bamford.rlc.ake and some of the 20+yo need to be given a shot or released

Agreed (but Salah has already gone)

My bad. he's mentioned in the original post lol

Salah hasnt been sold yet

Salah hasnt been sold yet

http://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2015/10/1/9436275/roma-chelsea-mohamed-salah-transfer-official

From what I've read there is conflicting info on Salah. Chelsea claim he is still being loaned, Roma claim he's already theirs.

See Michael's Last post on this page.

http://www.theshedend.com/topic/25209-mohamed-salah-to-chelsea/page-53?

Then we have the last blurb in this article.

http://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2016/5/18/11701320/fiorentina-30-million-eruos-compensation-chelsea-fc-mohamed-salah-days-of-our-live-rumour-report

Edited May 28, 201610 yr by seanlu13913